U17 Gold Medal Game: US defeats Spain 77-75 (merged)

[RadyLady]

Chris, I think you are overreacting here. pvdoggy had just watched Cox's best game this tournament while watching Lou's worst game of the tournament. Lou seemed to struggle on defense while providing little on offense, whereas Cox dominated on both ends. Based on this game, his statement is completely supported. I think Lou looked tired. Of the 5 starters, she had the least energy. Cox and Durr really shined down the stretch and Ogunbowale contributed throughout the game. Just look as the efficiency scores in the box score.

was it in the previous game's thread that there were some who wished that the coaches would give Katie a breather so she would be more rested before the most important game? I think so. I believe that one response was something to the effect of 'when we win the gold, then she can rest'.

I believe that the former observation had merit, and rest for KLS may have been the wiser course. Tired players make mistakes which could explain the fouls and fatigue. Perhaps a rested Katie would have made the game less a nail biter.... just sayin'

 

[rvwsleep]

I am surprised that this is the only post that even mentioned this call. I think the validity of the call depends completely on whether the Spanish screener moved to her right before the contact with KLS. I thought she did move just slightly to the right, making it a moving screen. But it was a very borderline call, and if the Spanish coach feels that it should have been ignored in the final minute (instead of nullifying a game-changing 3-point score by Salvadores), I think he has a credible case.

I am much more certain of this: if Michaela Mabrey had been the one who was screened in that way and tumbled to the floor as KLS did, everyone on this board would be screaming about flopping. I don't think KLS flopped (at 16, I don't think she is savvy enough to do that -- yet!), but having her in a heap on the floor next to the shooter made it impossible for the referee to avoid making a decision about whether to call the possible moving screen.

There is also no doubt that this call effectively determined the outcome of the game, and caused the USA team to win the gold. Not what the refs would have preferred, I'm sure.

Just for the sake of accuracy. The blocking foul occurred with 36 seconds left in the game and the US up by 4. Even if the shot counted, the US would still have been up by 1, with the ball, and with less than 36 seconds left. Not a comfortable lead but still a favorable position.

 

[Fightin Choke]

was it in the previous game's thread that there were some who wished that the coaches would give Katie a breather so she would be more rested before the most important game? I think so. I believe that one response was something to the effect of 'when we win the gold, then she can rest'.

I believe that the former observation had merit, and rest for KLS may have been the wiser course. Tired players make mistakes which could explain the fouls and fatigue. Perhaps a rested Katie would have made the game less a nail biter.... just sayin'

I completely agree. One possible reason that Phillips leaned so hard on Lou was that there were few wings on the bench that seemed ready for this stage. Chou and Burke were the other wings and they were not very effective. In general Phillips went to the bench far less frequently than in earlier games. I guess she figured that this isn't the game to develop skills/confidence in other players, so she stuck with her starters. Another possibility is that the fear of Lou's range opened up the inside for Durr, Cox, and Ogunbowale to work their magic, so Phillips stayed with her to improve the offense (despite Lou's paucity of shot opportunities herself). Finally, Lou had been battling illness earlier on this trip, and that, in combination with being on the road and playing in so many games in such a short time period, probably led to fatigue. And of course fatigue shows up most on the defensive end.

In summary, it might have been better to rest Lou during some of those blowouts so she would have fresher legs when it mattered most.

 

[RadyLady]

I completely agree. One possible reason that Phillips leaned so hard on Lou was that there were few wings on the bench that seemed ready for this stage. Chou and Burke were the other wings and they were not very effective. In general Phillips went to the bench far less frequently than in earlier games. I guess she figured that this isn't the game to develop skills/confidence in other players, so she stuck with her starters. Another possibility is that the fear of Lou's range opened up the inside for Durr, Cox, and Ogunbowale to work their magic, so Phillips stayed with her to improve the offense (despite Lou's paucity of shot opportunities herself). Finally, Lou had been battling illness earlier on this trip, and that, in combination with being on the road and playing in so many games in such a short time period, probably led to fatigue. And of course fatigue shows up most on the defensive end.

In summary, it might have been better to rest Lou during some of those blowouts so she would have fresher legs when it mattered most.

in hindsight.....as we all know. Thanks Choke. They won. That's all that matters. That's all that should matter.

 

[Sluconn Husky]

was it in the previous game's thread that there were some who wished that the coaches would give Katie a breather so she would be more rested before the most important game?

I brought it up yesterday because I thought she looked tired at times in that game. I really wasn't thinking ahead to today's game but I probably should have. They played Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and today. I'm sure KLS played the most minutes in that span.

 

[RadyLady]

I brought it up yesterday because I thought she looked tired at times in that game. I really wasn't thinking ahead to today's game but I probably should have. They played Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, and today. I'm sure KLS played the most minutes in that span.

yah, it really didn't matter who, just that someone had noted the amount of time Katie was playing coupled with the fact that she wasn't on her game today. they added up to me, that's all. (I was too lazy to look back and quote)

 

[DavidinNaples]

yah, it really didn't matter who, just that someone had noted the amount of time Katie was playing coupled with the fact that she wasn't on her game today. they added up to me, that's all. (I was too lazy to look back and quote)

Check the 4th post on this thread......)

 

[RadyLady]

OK, I did look it up. You did mention that, but it was this set of posts earlier in this thread actually to which I was referring....

View attachment 6328

If I'm not mistaken, KLS was sick enough to miss the first 2 or 3 games of the U-17 tour in Europe. Fortunately, they were tune-up games just before the official tournament began. She has played in all 6 games since then and leads the team in minutes played w/ 150 or 25.0 minutes per game. The next 2 players have 120 and 126 minutes. Not only is she leading the team in scoring w/ 90 points or 15.0 per game, but she is playing point and often bringing the ball up court. KLS has 18 of the team's 38 three point baskets. She is getting a lot of work...maybe too much?

Yesterday, against Hungary, KLS played 19:01 of the 20 minute first half. She played 33 of the first 36 competitive minutes before mass substitutions. She looked dead a-- tired and like she needed more rest. KLS shot 6 for 8 to open the game, and 3-8 after that. Her third personal foul just before the 1st half ended was the result of a tired player reaching in rather than moving her feet.

USA has played 6 games in the last 8 days. Even if she was 100% healthy, Coach Phillips is not giving her enough rest. It would be nice to have her rested before the most important game of the tournament. Just my opinion...

Go Katie Lou...!!

1 more game... and she can rest all she wants

 

[RadyLady]

Check the 4th post on this thread.)

oops! You beat me to it!!

 

[Buzzyboy]

I am sorry,but ,Spains Salvadore is every bit the equal of Durr. In fact in the passing game ,she is fantastic at times.We have to agree to disagree.

I thought I read where it was said that Salvadore is not better than Durr. It didn't say she wasn't as good as Durr so I'm kinda surprised at your comment.Salvadore was given a great deal of credit. Meanwhile many posters pointed out how Salvadore was left wide open time after time after time. She still had to make the shots but it really helps not to have someone in your face defending you.

 

[HGN]

Katie Lou is the team captain. Last year, Morgan Tuck was her team's captain, elected by her teammates. Not sure if the team or the coaches selected KLS, but she got the honor since she was the best player.

And that's no knock on Cox or Durr or Holmes.

Understood...Just pointing it out.

 

[Kibitzer]

I am much more certain of this: if Michaela Mabrey had been the one who was screened in that way and tumbled to the floor as KLS did, everyone on this board would be screaming about flopping. I don't think KLS flopped.

There is also no doubt that this call effectively determined the outcome of the game, and caused the USA team to win the gold. Not what the refs would have preferred, I'm sure.

First, I think it's a stretch to suggest Mabrey playing for the USA U17 team. Or any other USA team. Second, Katie Lou got knocked ass over teakettle by a tough forearm shivver. It was a foul, not question about it. And no flop.

The game was decided by Durr and Cox playing like Diana and Stewie with the game (and the gold!) on the line, not by any call(s) by the refs.

 

[Fightin Choke]

First, I think it's a stretch to suggest Mabrey playing for the USA U17 team. Or any other USA team. Second, Katie Lou got knocked ass over teakettle by a tough forearm shivver. It was a foul, not question about it. And no flop.

The game was decided by Durr and Cox playing like Diana and Stewie with the game (and the gold!) on the line, not by any call(s) by the refs.

Not only did Michaela suit up the USA, she was one of starters in 2012 on the U18 team. She was the third leading scorer, the best 3-pt shooter by far, and led the team in assists: LINK

 

[Kibitzer]

Not only did Michaela suit up the USA, she was one of starters in 2012 on the U18 team. She was the third leading scorer, the best 3-pt shooter by far, and led the team in assists: LINK

Touche. I stand corrected and apologize. I would give her a round of applause for her excellence.

Let's agree that her birth certificate would keep her off the current U17 team.

 

[Kibitzer]

I understand...but she had to get open,no matter what defense US was playing.Agree someone in your face makes it harder to make the shots,I agree.Its like I read so meny statements that indicate Durr is the best thing since sliced bread.And I know that for ever best there is always someone better.I just shake my head and am afraid to comment on this forum because I have been gang attacted as couple times.I could say more but will not.... I fully agree with you Buzzyboy.Peace!

Salvadores is a terrific shooter but Durr is a better basketball player. My opinion.

When both play wcbb the argument will be resolved by the comparative quality of their play.

My money is on Asia.

 

[DaddyChoc]

the TV announcer loved Asia Durr

 

[Bayareahusky]

I just saw the replay..... Asia Durr is WOW! Can really play..... can create her own shot well.... other players good as well..... nice to see this televised.

 

[j66kicker]

Not only did Michaela suit up the USA, she was one of starters in 2012 on the U18 team. She was the third leading scorer, the best 3-pt shooter by far, and led the team in assists: LINK

I thought JP meant if it was Michaela in a ND vs UCONN game

 

[Paul1969]

Cox, Cox, Cox!

 

[JoePgh]

I thought JP meant if it was Michaela in a ND vs UCONN game

That was indeed what I meant to suggest.

Imagine the scene: UConn is down 4 to Notre Dame in the last minute of the National Championship game. Around the 40-second mark, KML is wide open for a 3. Mabrey, who is supposed to guard her, is 10 feet away, but rushing to close out. She makes contact with Stef, who arguably has moved half a step to impede her. Mabrey tumbles to the floor as KML swishes the 3. Dee Kantner, reacting to Mabrey on the deck, whistles Stef for a moving screen and nullifies KML's 3. Notre Dame goes on to win by 2 points.

You tell me how this board would react. Ticky-tack foul! The call was only made because of Mabrey's acting job! etc...

Going back to Sunday's U17 game: In a perfect world, the ref would take 30 milliseconds to ask himself whether Salvadores would have gotten the shot off if the moving screen had not occurred. I think he would have concluded that KLS was too far away to stop the shot anyway, and would have swallowed his whistle. Of course, no ref can do that much information processing in the time allowed for him to make a call, so (being human) he reacted to KLS on the floor.

 

[j66kicker]

That was indeed what I meant to suggest.

Imagine the scene: UConn is down 4 to Notre Dame in the last minute of the National Championship game. Around the 40-second mark, KML is wide open for a 3. Mabrey, who is supposed to guard her, is 10 feet away, but rushing to close out. She makes contact with Stef, who arguably has moved half a step to impede her. Mabrey tumbles to the floor as KML swishes the 3. Dee Kantner, reacting to Mabrey on the deck, whistles Stef for a moving screen and nullifies KML's 3. Notre Dame goes on to win by 2 points.

You tell me how this board would react. Ticky-tack foul! The call was only made because of Mabrey's acting job! etc...

Going back to Sunday's U17 game: In a perfect world, the ref would take 30 milliseconds to ask himself whether Salvadores would have gotten the shot off if the moving screen had not occurred. I think he would have concluded that KLS was too far away to stop the shot anyway, and would have swallowed his whistle. Of course, no ref can do that much information processing in the time allowed for him to make a call, so (being human) he reacted to KLS on the floor.

Great imagery! Yes the ensuing BY activity would probably consume all the East Coast bandwidth and the Internet would go dark for an hour or so

 

[Zorro]

We must have been watching different games. In the game Kibs and I were watching, "Katie Lou got knocked ass over teakettle by a tough forearm shiver", as Kibs so eloquently characterized it, right in front of the ref. She did not just "tumble to the floor" of her own volitionl she really had no choice in the matter. She got creamed. And it was not inadvertent.

 

[rvwsleep]

That was indeed what I meant to suggest.

Imagine the scene: UConn is down 4 to Notre Dame in the last minute of the National Championship game. Around the 40-second mark, KML is wide open for a 3. Mabrey, who is supposed to guard her, is 10 feet away, but rushing to close out. She makes contact with Stef, who arguably has moved half a step to impede her. Mabrey tumbles to the floor as KML swishes the 3. Dee Kantner, reacting to Mabrey on the deck, whistles Stef for a moving screen and nullifies KML's 3. Notre Dame goes on to win by 2 points.

You tell me how this board would react. Ticky-tack foul! The call was only made because of Mabrey's acting job! etc...

Going back to Sunday's U17 game: In a perfect world, the ref would take 30 milliseconds to ask himself whether Salvadores would have gotten the shot off if the moving screen had not occurred. I think he would have concluded that KLS was too far away to stop the shot anyway, and would have swallowed his whistle. Of course, no ref can do that much information processing in the time allowed for him to make a call, so (being human) he reacted to KLS on the floor.

We must have been watching different games. In the game Kibs and I were watching, "Katie Lou got knocked ass over teakettle by a tough forearm shiver", as Kibs so eloquently characterized it, right in front of the ref. She did not just "tumble to the floor" of her own volitionl she really had no choice in the matter. She got creamed. And it was not inadvertent.

This is all conjecture. The question is: Was it a blocking foul or not ? Since you stated that the blocking player did move and that you don't think KLS was acting (and that the blocking foul was called consistently earlier in the game) then I can only conclude that you too think it was a blocking foul. The rest is an exercise in an attempt to stir the pot. Does the UConn fan base, like all fan bases, see through hometown glasses ? Yes, to some extent. But, by and large, I think they're fairly rational.
On edit: This response was meant for JoeP

 

[JS]

We must have been watching different games. In the game Kibs and I were watching, "Katie Lou got knocked ass over teakettle by a tough forearm shiver", as Kibs so eloquently characterized it, right in front of the ref.

Yeah, while many here are talking about a moving screen, what I saw more clearly was an elbow (not a forearm) to the chest. Erased the recording by now, so can't review it.

I did think Lou flopped a bit, to make sure the ref had to call it. Otherwise it might've been tempting to let it go in that crucial situation.

 

[msf22b]

.
I don't think KLS flopped (at 16, I don't think she is savvy enough to do that -- yet!), but having her in a heap on the floor next to the shooter made it impossible for the referee to avoid making a decision about whether to call the possible moving screen.
.

I watched the play a few times; there is no question that KLS was hit and knocked down (somewhat).
The question is one of embellishment (which I think she did).
Reminded me of the Stewie fall near the beginning of the championship game ; the ND guard gave her a pretty good shove and she fell in a heap, for which a foul was also called (which the announcers didn't particularly like, but agreed that it couldn't be ignored).
Hit? yes, the effect exaggerated a little bit? probably.

Should we establish a new terminology that differentiates a pure flop, such as Mabrey's
from an embellished knockdown?