U17 Gold Medal Game: US defeats Spain 77-75 (merged)

[j66kicker]

That was indeed what I meant to suggest.

Imagine the scene: UConn is down 4 to Notre Dame in the last minute of the National Championship game. Around the 40-second mark, KML is wide open for a 3. Mabrey, who is supposed to guard her, is 10 feet away, but rushing to close out. She makes contact with Stef, who arguably has moved half a step to impede her. Mabrey tumbles to the floor as KML swishes the 3. Dee Kantner, reacting to Mabrey on the deck, whistles Stef for a moving screen and nullifies KML's 3. Notre Dame goes on to win by 2 points.

You tell me how this board would react. Ticky-tack foul! The call was only made because of Mabrey's acting job! etc...

Going back to Sunday's U17 game: In a perfect world, the ref would take 30 milliseconds to ask himself whether Salvadores would have gotten the shot off if the moving screen had not occurred. I think he would have concluded that KLS was too far away to stop the shot anyway, and would have swallowed his whistle. Of course, no ref can do that much information processing in the time allowed for him to make a call, so (being human) he reacted to KLS on the floor.

Great imagery! Yes the ensuing BY activity would probably consume all the East Coast bandwidth and the Internet would go dark for an hour or so

 

[Zorro]

We must have been watching different games. In the game Kibs and I were watching, "Katie Lou got knocked ass over teakettle by a tough forearm shiver", as Kibs so eloquently characterized it, right in front of the ref. She did not just "tumble to the floor" of her own volitionl she really had no choice in the matter. She got creamed. And it was not inadvertent.

 

[rvwsleep]

That was indeed what I meant to suggest.

Imagine the scene: UConn is down 4 to Notre Dame in the last minute of the National Championship game. Around the 40-second mark, KML is wide open for a 3. Mabrey, who is supposed to guard her, is 10 feet away, but rushing to close out. She makes contact with Stef, who arguably has moved half a step to impede her. Mabrey tumbles to the floor as KML swishes the 3. Dee Kantner, reacting to Mabrey on the deck, whistles Stef for a moving screen and nullifies KML's 3. Notre Dame goes on to win by 2 points.

You tell me how this board would react. Ticky-tack foul! The call was only made because of Mabrey's acting job! etc...

Going back to Sunday's U17 game: In a perfect world, the ref would take 30 milliseconds to ask himself whether Salvadores would have gotten the shot off if the moving screen had not occurred. I think he would have concluded that KLS was too far away to stop the shot anyway, and would have swallowed his whistle. Of course, no ref can do that much information processing in the time allowed for him to make a call, so (being human) he reacted to KLS on the floor.

We must have been watching different games. In the game Kibs and I were watching, "Katie Lou got knocked ass over teakettle by a tough forearm shiver", as Kibs so eloquently characterized it, right in front of the ref. She did not just "tumble to the floor" of her own volitionl she really had no choice in the matter. She got creamed. And it was not inadvertent.

This is all conjecture. The question is: Was it a blocking foul or not ? Since you stated that the blocking player did move and that you don't think KLS was acting (and that the blocking foul was called consistently earlier in the game) then I can only conclude that you too think it was a blocking foul. The rest is an exercise in an attempt to stir the pot. Does the UConn fan base, like all fan bases, see through hometown glasses ? Yes, to some extent. But, by and large, I think they're fairly rational.
On edit: This response was meant for JoeP

 

[JS]

We must have been watching different games. In the game Kibs and I were watching, "Katie Lou got knocked ass over teakettle by a tough forearm shiver", as Kibs so eloquently characterized it, right in front of the ref.

Yeah, while many here are talking about a moving screen, what I saw more clearly was an elbow (not a forearm) to the chest. Erased the recording by now, so can't review it.

I did think Lou flopped a bit, to make sure the ref had to call it. Otherwise it might've been tempting to let it go in that crucial situation.

 

[msf22b]

.
I don't think KLS flopped (at 16, I don't think she is savvy enough to do that -- yet!), but having her in a heap on the floor next to the shooter made it impossible for the referee to avoid making a decision about whether to call the possible moving screen.
.

I watched the play a few times; there is no question that KLS was hit and knocked down (somewhat).
The question is one of embellishment (which I think she did).
Reminded me of the Stewie fall near the beginning of the championship game ; the ND guard gave her a pretty good shove and she fell in a heap, for which a foul was also called (which the announcers didn't particularly like, but agreed that it couldn't be ignored).
Hit? yes, the effect exaggerated a little bit? probably.

Should we establish a new terminology that differentiates a pure flop, such as Mabrey's
from an embellished knockdown?

 

[JoePgh]

We must have been watching different games. In the game Kibs and I were watching, "Katie Lou got knocked ass over teakettle by a tough forearm shiver", as Kibs so eloquently characterized it, right in front of the ref. She did not just "tumble to the floor" of her own volitionl she really had no choice in the matter. She got creamed. And it was not inadvertent.

But you didn't address what seems to me to be the crucial point: If KLS had not been "creamed", could she have stopped the shot by Salvadores? If the answer is No (and I think it is), then in the last minute of a critical game, that call should not be made.

 

[Kibitzer]

in the last minute of a critical game, that call should not be made.

Following this logic, the refs should ignore the rules (by not making a call when they see an infraction occur) and therefore decide the outcome of a critical game by their inaction.

Sorry, I cannot share your view.

 

[hoophuskee]

Imagine the scene: UConn is down 4 to Notre Dame in the last minute of the National Championship game. Around the 40-second mark, KML is wide open for a 3. Mabrey, who is supposed to guard her, is 10 feet away, but rushing to close out. She makes contact with Stef, who arguably has moved half a step to impede her. Mabrey tumbles to the floor as KML swishes the 3. Dee Kantner, reacting to Mabrey on the deck, whistles Stef for a moving screen and nullifies KML's 3. Notre Dame goes on to win by 2 points.


You tell me how this board would react. Ticky-tack foul! The call was only made because of Mabrey's acting job! etc...

There’s a valid reason the board would react that way. Most of us believe ND throws their body into opposing players and flops. For me, I do understand why they do it. Heck the NBA does it! But to ignore it just because they are a rival and/or because a UCONN player “may” have done it – is wrong but their prior history shouldn’t be ignored. Not saying you are. Also, I didn’t see the play. But just as someone said “I call it like I see it” I think most of us can be objective and call ND as we see them.

ND actively seeks an advantage which is why you hear even the head coach say “UCONN gets away with a lot of fouls.” Its okay for the coach to try to gain an advantage based on her perception. I don’t think she is blowing smoke – I think she really believes UCONN does. Geno speaks of players going through the lane w/o the ball getting bumped as well.

The fact is, when big sis is known as a flopper, the ND team is known as a floppers then this board won’t be shy to point out that a player bound to go to our rival that already has a family member on the rival team- did in fact flop. Thus I don’t think your scenario applies. ND doesn’t accuse UCONN of flopping they accuse us of fouling. Thus your implication that KLS may have flopped similar to what we feel we know that ND as a team and the player’s sis is a flopper vs a a potential unusual event for a UCONN player isn’t apples to apples. There is a big difference.

 

[Zorro]

Joe; I know that you are up on the fine points of the rules of wbb to a much greater extent than I am, so I am asking this as a sincere request for inf0; why does it make a difference whether or not KLS could have blocked the shot? You seem to be saying that this is the crucial point on which the question of foul/no foul rests and I am wondering why.

 

[hoophuskee]

But you didn't address what seems to me to be the crucial point: If KLS had not been "creamed", could she have stopped the shot by Salvadores? If the answer is No (and I think it is), then in the last minute of a critical game, that call should not be made.

I can’t speak for the play. But if you have someone around six inches taller plus long arms coming out at you – it makes no difference whatsoever if she could have “stopped the shot.” Her mere presence could “affect the shot/affect the release” etc.

 

[JoePgh]

Joe; I know that you are up on the fine points of the rules of wbb to a much greater extent than I am, so I am asking this as a sincere request for inf0; why does it make a difference whether or not KLS could have blocked the shot? You seem to be saying that this is the crucial point on which the question of foul/no foul rests and I am wondering why.

By the letter of the law, if the screener moved or used an elbow, the foul should be called. In practice, in all sports at a high level and in the final seconds of crucial games, referees are (in my view and I think most people's view) appropriately reluctant to decide the outcome of games by making calls for fouls that that do not affect the outcome of the play. So if the 3 would have been made anyway, it is not appropriate for the ref to call a foul elsewhere on the court that had no effect on the shot.

It is different earlier in the game, when there is an opportunity for other things to happen later to offset the effect. But a made shot in the last minute probably cannot be recreated, and if it would have occurred whether the foul took place or not, the refs should follow the spirit rather than the letter of the rules and "swallow their whistle".

It is a matter of opinion and judgment -- I realize that there is a valid case to be made for the opposite point of view.

 

[Zorro]

Thanx.

 

[pap49cba]

Paul Nilsen @basketmedia365 · 21h
Lauren Cox is a bad ass. (Can I say that?) I really love her game. Tough customer. No-nonsense and I like that.@FIBA #FIBAU17

Paul Nilsen @basketmedia365 · 20h
Lauren Cox is winning this game with her attitude on the court - not just her 16 points @fiba #fibau17

 

[calpedaler]

Girl in a mans body...as I mentioned a few days ago,the US trees should dominate...and she did.How meny young guys playing ball would love to have her size/body....again....Young girl in a mans body....and not the typical big girl body.

You've repeated this several and seem to believe it's a compliment. It isn't though.

 

[Waquoit]

But you didn't address what seems to me to be the crucial point: If KLS had not been "creamed", could she have stopped the shot by Salvadores? If the answer is No (and I think it is), then in the last minute of a critical game, that call should not be made.

I agree, the pick had no effect on the shot. And while there was contact, the defender flopped pretty blatantly. If the roles were reversed and that was made against us, I can't see many here being good with it.

 

[calpedaler]

Not ment as a complement...ment as a fact!..and as with any big ,they have the advantage and the coach goes with it to control the game!

Actually, it's an opinion based on your observations. I agree she has a great basketball physique, but I disagree that she has man's body.

 

[j66kicker]

I watched the play a few times; there is no question that KLS was hit and knocked down (somewhat).
The question is one of embellishment (which I think she did).
Reminded me of the Stewie fall near the beginning of the championship game ; the ND guard gave her a pretty good shove and she fell in a heap, for which a foul was also called (which the announcers didn't particularly like, but agreed that it couldn't be ignored).
Hit? yes, the effect exaggerated a little bit? probably.

Should we establish a new terminology that differentiates a pure flop, such as Mabrey's from an embellished knockdown?

Yes. My objective, "call 'em as I see 'em" terminology:
Notre Dame player = Flop
UCONN player = Embellished knockdown

 

[slimmer56]

As I said before in another post Lauren Cos is the most fundamentally sound post on the u17 team. She worked her tail off on defense. It looked at times like she was the only one trying to play D. She was playing down in the post, and you could still see her running out to 3 pt land to try and block the shot. She scored, rebounded, blocked shots...I don't know what else a coach could have asked her to do.

Whoever gets Lauren Cox for 4 years at the next level will be very lucky. With her youth, and all her USA experience I see her getting lots of minutes, or even starting as a freshman !

 

[Zorro]

I am trying to watch the archive on Basketball Live, and can't get the damn thing out of slow-mo. When I hit the toggle performance button it goes into regular speed for a couple of seconds, and then reverts to slow-mo. Can anyone give me the solution?

 

[Zorro]

Joe; I see exactly where you are coming from, and have some sympathy with that point of view, but it leads to the question of ; "at what point of the game and at what sort of point differential should the refs start bending the rules?". Last two minutes, and under 5 points, or what? Seems to me that there is no good answer to that question and that therefore the rules should be enforced evenly throughout the game, regardless.

 

[hoophuskee]

They ignore rules every game...most common walking,palming,will call a bump one quarter and over look it the next.I could go on and on.and on...refs. are human....

I don’t think fouls should be called on every play. With that said, I don;’t think teams should be allowed to cheat at the end of games either– ie figuring that the refs won’t call fouls. If KLS mere presence was close enough to potentially get a hand near the player, the offense has gained a big advantage and thus shouldn’t complain. A player with KLS’s height and wingspan doesn’t need to stop the shot.If the offensive team has taken away her ability (a player six inches taller with big wingspan) to get near the player that is shooting, it should be under serious consideration for a foul. By ignoring it, the offense has gained a huge advantage. IMO you shouldn’t be allowed to gain any huge advantages either way.

 

[msf22b]

Thinking about Slimmer's comments on Lauren Cox…agree whole-heartedly but:

It's absolutely amazing how little these kids have been taught of the elements of team play on both sides of the ball.
Wonderful athletes, fantastic potential, put the best 5 or 6 of them in a UConn uniform and they'll be all-world.

But right now, just a bunch of real gifted kids that need to digest the basic principles of what BB is really about.

 

[Wbbfan1]

I had the same problem this morning. Replay is available on ESPN3.

Joe; I see exactly where you are coming from, and have some sympathy with that point of view, but it leads to the question of ; "at what point of the game and at what sort of point differential should the refs start bending the rules?". Last two minutes, and under 5 points, or what? Seems to me that there is no good answer to that question and that therefore the rules should be enforced evenly throughout the game, regardless.

 

[Godfather]

Cox played a heck of a game, her best game of the tournament, it was clear from the beginning the game plan was to go to her a lot inside, and whoever else was inside, and she made up bigtime from having a so so tournament to that point,

IMO if we played Spain 10 times we would beat them 10 times, are they a GOOD TEAM or did one player get super hot, I see tweets and message board post saying how the rest of the world has caught up to the USA that's crap, some teams around the world have gotten better no doubt, but we still have the best and most talented basketball players in the world, we have players just as good or better than #8 she was all they had and she was in a scoring zone but lets not get carried away.

The players played the roles they were put into, and I think Durr deserved All Tournament team, she was 2nd in scoring and 1st in assist and played a heck of a game when called upon, and Cox was a heck of an anchor on defense but your defensive quarterback or middle linebacker was Boykin, most of the time she would snuff out the play that they wanted to run so they started to go away from her side of the floor that's why she played 31min, also tell me who else from Spain did any real damage to the US

Sometimes a ref will see a call they missed earlier and make a mental note that if they see it again they are going to call it, it doesn't matter at what time of the game it happens it will get called

 

[Zorro]

I had the same problem this morning. Replay is available on ESPN3.

Not in Guatemala it isn't. I wrote a note to them about it; if they give me the solution Iwill pass it on.

 

[Buzzyboy]

I understand...but she had to get open,no matter what defense US was playing.Agree someone in your face makes it harder to make the shots,I agree.Its like I read so meny statements that indicate Durr is the best thing since sliced bread.And I know that for ever best there is always someone better.I just shake my head and am afraid to comment on this forum because I have been gang attacted as couple times.I could say more but will not.... I fully agree with you Buzzyboy.Peace!

Sorry if you took my comments overly critically. I know you were just giving credit where it was due. That Spanish girl played an amazing game and deserves a lot of recognition for having done so. You were just insuring that she did. Good for you. Don't be afraid to offer opinions, that's what this site is all about.

 

[Buzzyboy]

But you didn't address what seems to me to be the crucial point: If KLS had not been "creamed", could she have stopped the shot by Salvadores? If the answer is No (and I think it is), then in the last minute of a critical game, that call should not be made.

I think a game should be called the same way in the last minute that it's called in the first minute. When ref's start changing the rules depending on what time of the game, it creates issues. Well, there's two minutes and twenty seconds left so now we can do this and get away with that because they're not going to call it???? That's a problem, waiting to happen. Be consistent.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Joe; I see exactly where you are coming from, and have some sympathy with that point of view, but it leads to the question of ; "at what point of the game and at what sort of point differential should the refs start bending the rules?". Last two minutes, and under 5 points, or what? Seems to me that there is no good answer to that question and that therefore the rules should be enforced evenly throughout the game, regardless.

I just read your post after having posted something very similar. You can't differentiate because you'd have players thinking, two minues and twenty seconds left and I can now start getting more aggressive and doing this or that because they're not inclined to call it. It would create mayhem and change the whole flow of the game in those last minutes. Consistency is necessary throughout the game so that the kids know what the cause and effect of their actions will be. If I do that, this is going to happen.

 

[hoophuskee]

I am not saying it is good or bad either way.All I am saying is fowls are not called,simple as that.I am neutral in this!....

Sometimes fouls are called. Sometimes they aren’t. There is a history of fouls being called late in games though so let’s not pretend their hasn’’t been. I feel I’m being neutral.

I don’t feel the call in 1989 college finals Mich vs Seton Hall should have been called. I didn’t feel that was a foul. But I did think the NBA finals DWade was fouled by the Mavs. And I thought in 92-93 ECF Semi-s I though Pippen fouled the Knick – whoever he was.

You can hear guys like Barkly say – if late in game you should have to be mugged to get a call which I think si ridiculous. If you cheat at the end thinking you can get away with thuggery, you deserve what you get.

Fouls are judged different by different refs.At different times during a game or different games.

Sure. And sometimes we comment on a blown call etc.

.My God,..how meny times have you listened to a commentator mention the game is being called tight or loose.

Right. But fouls are still called throughout. You have seen it in your lifetime from beginning to end. No reason to for that to change. A foul should be called late if the flow of the play can be impacted. In this case if KLS had any chance – with her height and wingspan – and the offensive team blocked her chance to compete in an illegal way – it should be called.

What can I say..How about .....Come on!!!!

Absolutely. I agree! Come on!!!

 

[Sluconn Husky]

Like your post but Cox is NO STEWART,no where near her.

Better rebounder, better shot blocker, better 1-on-1 defender. Probably end up at least as good a passer looking at the trajectory. She may not have quite as many offensive arrows in her quiver but I'd say she's at least very near Stewart as a prospect. I'd like to get some opinions from the professional prospect folks.