Tina Charles traded to Mystics

[Patrick Lilly]

A shocker - but maybe not.

The Liberty are a mess. Moved out of the city, poor ownership and a terrible coach. As stated above, chance to play for a coach she really liked.

Good for Tina. I hope she earns that elusive championship.

Huskynut, I respectively disagree with you quite strongly. The Liberty were owned by James Dolan and MSG, and in my opinion, the worst owner in the league. They've been playing the last few years at the Westchester Center that feels like a medium size high school gym. In January of 2019 Joe Tsai, the founder of Alibaba and the owner of the Nets, bought the Liberty. He's a good guy and has arranged for all of the Liberty's home games to be played at the Barclay Center in Brooklyn which is an amazing arena easily accessible by public transportation from the tri-state area. They fired Katie Smith as coach, which I think was a smart move and hired Walt Hopkins. I have no idea if he is a great coach, but I know players respect him. After many years of being a reluctant Liberty fan, I have great hope for the franchise. Tina's numbers were way down this past year and I suspect she will be happier in DC. That being said, the Liberty got 4 of the first 15 picks in this draft and two decent role players. I think they did just fine and I hope Tina has a great year.

 

[domerduck]

Good grief.

Tina Charles was named Final Four MOP on a team that had Maya Moore on it. Pretty sure she also won Big East POY as well.

I agree she was brilliant at UConn, a team which had already won 5 National championships before she got there. The only distinction I made was Ruthy took a mediocre team to much higher heights. I'd also say Ruthy's colege career was comparable as the stats point out which I posted earlier. They both had an unbelievable teammate in Maya and Sabrina, that helped them succeed in college. I just think there is much to be played in both careers in the WNBA and Olympics before we limit what Hebard can contribute after college and say there is no comparison.

 

[bballnut90]

I agree she was a great regular season player, but from a franchise player standpoint she never brought any of her teams to even the championship series, only going 4-11 in the playoffs and missing them the last two years with the Liberty. Since Ruthy hasn't played a game in the WNBA, its hard to compare how she'll do, but she was a winner at Oregon. In their playoffs (PAC12 tourneys & NCAAs) she was 20-5 while the previous 4 years Oregon had zero wins. We will see how she does in the WNBA.

Franchise player doesnt mean championships, it means the centerpiece of the team who you build around. Tina was 100% the franchise player for both the Liberty and Sun during her stints there.

Charles is like KG, she's clearly one of the best 5-10 players in the league but no one has ever considered her the best. Hasnt been able to get to a title round as the marquee player but should be able to make a run paired with another top player or 2.

And I like your optimism with Hebard, but again, college stats from different programs in different eras just arent relevant when comparing the two. Hebard doesnt appear physical enough to be a dominant post. She isnt a defensive stopper and hasnt shown a good face up game or any range on her shot which are essential in the pros.

Tina had all of these qualities coming into the pros and was NPOY on an undefeated team. She was the clear #1 pick in the draft and went on to be an All WNBA player as a rookie and an MVP by her third year. Hebard is projected by most mocks as going 7-11 with everyone projecting her as a role player. If she had franchise player potential, she'd be a lock for a top 4 pick. I think she could be a very good pro, in the mold of another Crystal Langhorne, but will be shocked if she has a career anywhere close to the one Tina has had.

 

[domerduck]

but will be shocked if she has a career anywhere close to the one Tina has had.

You are correct Tina was the Liberty's franchise player in the same way Matt Stafford is the Lion's franchise player. I'd say Tina now has a better chance to win a championship than Stafford does with this trade. Also agree stats from different generations/teams are hard to compare, even if you can as I did. As for the future I suggest both players will get a chance to show their stuff on new teams. After 10 years in the WNBA, we will see if Ruthy shocks you and has a strong WNBA career. She has been underestimated for years coming from Alaska so I won't count her out yet.

 

[Plebe]

Franchise player doesnt mean championships, it means the centerpiece of the team who you build around. Tina was 100% the franchise player for both the Liberty and Sun during her stints there.

Charles is like KG, she's clearly one of the best 5-10 players in the league but no one has ever considered her the best. Hasnt been able to get to a title round as the marquee player but should be able to make a run paired with another top player or 2.

And I like your optimism with Hebard, but again, college stats from different programs in different eras just arent relevant when comparing the two. Hebard doesnt appear physical enough to be a dominant post. She isnt a defensive stopper and hasnt shown a good face up game or any range on her shot which are essential in the pros.

Tina had all of these qualities coming into the pros and was NPOY on an undefeated team. She was the clear #1 pick in the draft and went on to be an All WNBA player as a rookie and an MVP by her third year. Hebard is projected by most mocks as going 7-11 with everyone projecting her as a role player. If she had franchise player potential, she'd be a lock for a top 4 pick. I think she could be a very good pro, in the mold of another Crystal Langhorne, but will be shocked if she has a career anywhere close to the one Tina has had.

You have answered this more thoroughly and authoritatively than I could have.

I don’t want to be the one to knock Ruthy Hebard in any way. I am a fan of hers. But to say she is comparable to Tina Charles is wishful homerism at its finest.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Maybe Charles can improve on her .389 shooting from last season. I was shocked when I looked at her stats to see she's never hit 50%+ in a single WNBA season. She was awfully close in 2012 at .499, but .450 for her career is kinda lacking for a front court player. She scores her points, but not exactly the most efficient player.

 

[domerduck]

But to say she is comparable to Tina Charles is wishful homerism at its finest.

You are correct...Ruthy is 21 and Tina is 31...what was I thinking.

 

[j66kicker]

Maybe Charles can improve on her .389 shooting from last season. I was shocked when I looked at her stats to see she's never hit 50%+ in a single WNBA season. She was awfully close in 2012 at .499, but .450 for her career is kinda lacking for a front court player. She scores her points, but not exactly the most efficient player.

You are correct...Ruthy is 21 and Tina is 31...what was I thinking.

No biggie, but coming onto the UConn side of a UConn board and arguing that Ruthie Hebard is comparable to Tina Charles - do you really think you're going to convince anybody?

 

[triaddukefan]

No biggie, but coming onto the UConn side of a UConn board and arguing that Ruthie Hebard is comparable to Tina Charles - do you really think you're going to convince anybody?

They are both black females who play basketball.... yes.. they are comparable on that front.

 

[nwhoopfan]

No biggie, but coming onto the UConn side of a UConn board and arguing that Ruthie Hebard is comparable to Tina Charles - do you really think you're going to convince anybody?

Can you point out in my post where I was comparing the 2 players? I don't see it.

 

[j66kicker]

Can you point out in my post where I was comparing the 2 players? I don't see it.

Sorry - you were just attacking Charles. That prob doesn't work well here either, just sayin'...

 

[domerduck]

No biggie, but coming onto the UConn side of a UConn board and arguing that Ruthie Hebard is comparable to Tina Charles - do you really think you're going to convince anybody?

I wasn't trying to. Remember my first reply to on this thread to your suggestion maybe with the trade the Liberty might pick Hebard, I said "No doubt the Liberty will miss Charles and even if they get hebard, it's a stretch to say she can duplicate what Tina does." A later reply I said "Since Ruthy hasn't played a game in the WNBA, its hard to compare how she'll do".

I guess UConn folks got annoyed that I said Tina didn't win in the WNBA playoffs that much going 4-11 which is why the trade makes sense to me. How dare that I thought at 6'4" coming out of college with like stats that Ruthy might have some similarities as the Liberty try to move on without Tina Charles. And using Plebe's words" I don’t want to be the one to knock Tina Charles in any way, I am a fan of hers."

 

[CL82]

Hmm, seems like a good time to post this video in tribute to Tina's move as she "sails into the Mystic":



(...and just because it is a good song.)

 

[bballnut90]

You have answered this more thoroughly and authoritatively than I could have.

I don’t want to be the one to knock Ruthy Hebard in any way. I am a fan of hers. But to say she is comparable to Tina Charles is wishful homerism at its finest.

Thanks, and I feel the same regarding Hebard. I'm not trying to knock her because I love watching her and hope she has a great WNBA career, but the comparison is just so inaccurate IMO. It's like someone claiming Oregon wont miss Sabrina next year because they have Chavez to take over (and I love Chavez too btw).

 

[DeeHusky]

college Tina Charles is still a bit better than Ruthy Hebard. Present day Tina Charles is a LOT to ask of Ruthy Hebard. Tina won MVP her 3rd season in the league, I don’t want to discredit Hebard, but... no ma’am. These comparisons y’all try to make sometimes are ridiculous just like the Lauren Cox, ONO debate.

 

[bballnut90]

Maybe Charles can improve on her .389 shooting from last season. I was shocked when I looked at her stats to see she's never hit 50%+ in a single WNBA season. She was awfully close in 2012 at .499, but .450 for her career is kinda lacking for a front court player. She scores her points, but not exactly the most efficient player.

Tina has never been an efficient scorer in the pros. The last several years she has been a volume shooter, leading the league in FGA for many years in a row. Last year especially she seemed a lot more content to take difficult fadeaways instead of trying to battle inside. Guessing her percentages go up playing with better players and a coach who she likes, but she'll never be a 55% shooter in the pros considering how many perimeter shots she takes.

 

[bballnut90]

You are correct Tina was the Liberty's franchise player in the same way Matt Stafford is the Lion's franchise player. I'd say Tina now has a better chance to win a championship than Stafford does with this trade. Also agree stats from different generations/teams are hard to compare, even if you can as I did. As for the future I suggest both players will get a chance to show their stuff on new teams. After 10 years in the WNBA, we will see if Ruthy shocks you and has a strong WNBA career. She has been underestimated for years coming from Alaska so I won't count her out yet.

I think she will have an excellent career. I've said numerous times I think she can be Langhorne 2.0, and Crystal is a 12 year vet averaging 12ppg and 6.5rpg. Crystal made 2nd team All-WNBA once and is a former All Star. I just dont think she's going to be like Charles who is an MVP and 8x All-WNBA player at 31.

 

[domerduck]

The trade makes sense to me too, but moreso because I think Tina is burned out on the Liberty and I think they can do well with all those draft picks. Of course Ruthie isn't part of the trade, and there's no guarantee she'll still be on the board at #9 even if they are interested in her. I would be interested if I was them, especially with her being 10 years younger and already having chemistry with Sabrina.

You are correct about Tina not winning in the WNBA playoffs, but we all know that and you are also correct that this redundant info will probably not be appreciated here. Coming out of college there's no comparison. I guess NPOY awards and NCs aren't "stats" per se, but probably more important than stats. Somebody above mentioned Stat Padford Matt Stafford. If he stays in Detroit he'll retire with more meaningless stats than any QB in history.

My opinion Tina was best when paired with another superstar, one more transcendant which she had at UConn with Maya. In fact her NPOY was a year that Maya also won two of them that year as well, a year after she won them all her Sophomore year. With EDD she'll have that again and take her career farther and not end up like Stafford, as a franchise player with stats who didn't win. I think it's best for both the Liberty and Charles to move on so the trade makes sense to me, no matter who they draft.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Tina has never been an efficient scorer in the pros. The last several years she has been a volume shooter, leading the league in FGA for many years in a row. Last year especially she seemed a lot more content to take difficult fadeaways instead of trying to battle inside. Guessing her percentages go up playing with better players and a coach who she likes, but she'll never be a 55% shooter in the pros considering how many perimeter shots she takes.

Somewhere between 45% and 55% is quite a bit of wiggle room. I looked at a few other players for comparison. EDD is .474 and Stewie is .489, and both of those 2 take more 3's than Charles does, which you would expect would push overall percentage down (although effective FG% is an entirely different stat). I don't watch a ton of WNBA but I know I've seen Nneka and Griner take plenty of jump shots, they are at .551 and .561 for their careers.

 

[domerduck]

college Tina Charles is still a bit better than Ruthy Hebard. Present day Tina Charles is a LOT to ask of Ruthy Hebard. Tina won MVP her 3rd season in the league, I don’t want to discredit Hebard, but... no ma’am. These comparisons y’all try to make sometimes are ridiculous just like the Lauren Cox, ONO debate.

I get UConn players have much more championship history than any Duck player and the greats like Tina have made a difference at the highest level so again noone is trying to compare them. Just saying, Tina Charles will be gone from the Liberty with the trade and maybe selecting Ruthy in the draft (as my original reply supported that thought) as they have similar height and college stats. Ruthy has some national recognition (consensus AA and two-time McLain Award winner-National Power Forward of the year) but not to the level of Charles, but she might help fill the gap of losing Charles. I think pairing her with Sabrina does make some sense as they did win a lot together, even if not UConn levels.

 

[Plebe]

My opinion Tina was best when paired with another superstar, one more transcendant which she had at UConn with Maya. In fact her NPOY was a year that Maya also won two of them that year as well, a year after she won them all her Sophomore year. With EDD she'll have that again and take her career farther and not end up like Stafford, as a franchise player with stats who didn't win. I think it's best for both the Liberty and Charles to move on so the trade makes sense to me, no matter who they draft.

Hardly breaking new analytical ground to observe that having two all-time greats on a team is AOTBE better than having only one.

Basketball is a team sport. Look at the teams that have won WNBA titles. They have multiple bona fide stars on their team, and they don't leave it all up to one great player to carry them. Candace Parker couldn't win a WNBA championship without Nneka, and vice versa.

 

[Lynx23]

Two years ago, when Kia was a rookie with the NY Liberty, Tina played like a superstar IMHO, even though the team had a poor record. I was disappointed in her play last year. She often took it upon herself to score rather than pass to an open player, and many of those shots were forced. They just didn't fall like they did the year before. Maybe Tina forced a trade (or not) but the Liberty are obviously going with youth at this point, so I have no problem with her moving on. I'm a UCONN fan and have always thought she was great, often underappreciated as well, but after last year (and having watched all the games) I felt her best years might be behind her. i guess we'll see. The NY Liberty is no longer UCONN South but if Hopkins can get the best out of his current players plus Sabrina, the future looks very bright. Durr, Nurse, Clarendon, Ionsecu, Johannes, Amanda B, Stokes (assuming she doesn't go anywhere as I don't think the Liberty are done with trades). Han, etc. Could be very interesting going forward, especially as older players begin to leave the league. The don't need another guard but they may have a shot at Walker who would benefit from minutes here and there off the bench with a young team and no pressure.

 

[Dillon77]

I'll just add another wow. Actually, I'm not all that surprised: there had been rumblings that Tina wasn't pleased with the Liberty franchise over the past few years, since Laimbeer packed his bags for Vegas. Clearly a decsion was made that would be in her interest and, perhaps, for the Liberty. Tina's choice of trade partners makes a bunch of sense: play for a championship with superb players and under another favorite coach, Mike Thibault, and then have the option of what to do the next year.

For the Liberty, personally, I would've liked to have seen the Liberty try to get a rebounding forward such as Myisha Hines-Allen. But since they're building, they've got some WNBA players and a mess of draft choices.

Liberty will have a trio of superb guards with Sabrina, Kia and Asia. On the front line, Amanda Zaui B will need to be more consistent (30+ against Sparks to disappear for a few games). Looking forward to what the new adminstrative and coaching staffs produce.

 

[bballnut90]

Somewhere between 45% and 55% is quite a bit of wiggle room. I looked at a few other players for comparison. EDD is .474 and Stewie is .489, and both of those 2 take more 3's than Charles does, which you would expect would push overall percentage down (although effective FG% is an entirely different stat). I don't watch a ton of WNBA but I know I've seen Nneka and Griner take plenty of jump shots, they are at .551 and .561 for their careers.

Charles for her career is 45% which isnt very good for a post but isnt awful considering the volume of shots she has taken. She's had 2 noticeably bad years (2013 and 2019) but has been consistent between 44-50% the other 8.

Also, Charles just flat out is not nearly as good of a shooter or overall offensive player as Stewart or EDD. Both were stellar ball handlers and perimeter players from the get go with smooth jumpers. Charles was a center who has developed a perimeter game over time and has kind of an all or nothing jumper. She also doesnt have great touch around the basket like Nneka, but few players do (I will say Hebard might be one of them.)

Tina's the type of player who you can throw the ball to anytime and she'll go to work inside and get a decent look at a shot even if she isnt the best finisher. Not many players can do that, and that's why she's a go to. That's very difficult to match up with, especially with her size, physicality, post moves and face up ability, but she doesnt have particularly good shooting touch. A'ja Wilson is the same way. The ability to be an incredibly difficult matchup is what largely separates them from role players in the league even if they arent the most efficient scorers.

 

[Zanzman]

You are correct...Ruthy is 21 and Tina is 31...what was I thinking.

I laugh when you talk about the home team bias here at the boneyard , seems you fit right in-for the visitors

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Hot off the presses: Tina wanted to head to Mystics. Tina Charles initiated the Mystics and Liberty trade talks

"Tina's in a position where she wants to compete for a championship sooner than later as an older player," Thibault said. "It's been a couple of weeks in the making. [The Liberty] clearly were motivated to get it done before the draft so that the draft picks would play a factor for them this week."

Bringing in a player like Charles gives the Mystics an embarrassment of riches in terms of talent on the team. Already two-time MVP Elena Delle Donne is inked long-term and they also have Emma Meesseman coming off of an incredible WNBA Finals appearance.

However, there is no guarantee that all three could be on the court given the current coronavirus pandemic. Meesseman is overseas in her home country of Belgium, where there is currently a non-essential travel ban to the United States. Charles could be an "insurance plan" if Meesseman cannot get back into the U.S. "

 

[domerduck]

Another hot off the press from the New York Post. "Tina Charles trade shows Liberty all-in on Sabrina Ionescu rebuild" My favorite quote per our discussion "Ionescu’s Oregon pick-and-roll dance partner Ruthy Hebard begins to make a lot of sense at No. 9 or No. 12. After all, it’s Ionescu’s team now."

Tina Charles trade shows Liberty all-in on Sabrina Ionescu rebuild

Sabrina Ionescu isn’t officially on the New York Liberty yet, and the Liberty are already Ionescu’s team. When — not “if,” though Liberty general manager Jonathan Kolb spoke in an interview this we…

nypost.com

 

[bballnut90]

Hot off the presses: Tina wanted to head to Mystics. Tina Charles initiated the Mystics and Liberty trade talks

"Tina's in a position where she wants to compete for a championship sooner than later as an older player," Thibault said. "It's been a couple of weeks in the making. [The Liberty] clearly were motivated to get it done before the draft so that the draft picks would play a factor for them this week."

Bringing in a player like Charles gives the Mystics an embarrassment of riches in terms of talent on the team. Already two-time MVP Elena Delle Donne is inked long-term and they also have Emma Meesseman coming off of an incredible WNBA Finals appearance.

However, there is no guarantee that all three could be on the court given the current coronavirus pandemic. Meesseman is overseas in her home country of Belgium, where there is currently a non-essential travel ban to the United States. Charles could be an "insurance plan" if Meesseman cannot get back into the U.S. "

Yeah no surprise there. Writing was on the wall that NY was a few years away from being a contender and Charles isnt getting any younger. Mystics should be good, but not fully sold on them being a title favorite with teams like Vegas, Seattle and Phoenix all projected to be very good. Last year the greatly benefitted from all of the stars being out.

 

[JonathanXIV]

I agree she was a great regular season player, but from a franchise player standpoint she never brought any of her teams to even the championship series, only going 4-11 in the playoffs and missing them the last two years with the Liberty. Since Ruthy hasn't played a game in the WNBA, its hard to compare how she'll do, but she was a winner at Oregon. In their playoffs (PAC12 tourneys & NCAAs) she was 20-5 while the previous 4 years Oregon had zero wins. We will see how she does in the WNBA.

Tina is a “regular season player” and Ruthy is a “winner.” Shame Tina never won a national championship while at UConn, unlike Ruthy, and never was national player of the year. Oh wait...

 

[LowkeyX]

Yeah no surprise there. Writing was on the wall that NY was a few years away from being a contender and Charles isnt getting any younger. Mystics should be good, but not fully sold on them being a title favorite with teams like Vegas, Seattle and Phoenix all projected to be very good. Last year the greatly benefitted from all of the stars being out.

& Connecticut Sun will still be strong even with the loss of Courtney Williams.