Thoughts on injuries

[Rowdy831]

Channeling my inner Arnold Schwarzenegger, "it's not the strength and conditioning program". Tim Fudd had to say this on twitter today after a few WNBA players were parroting the same idea about the S&C program. I posted a quote earlier that a doc surmises that there may have been more damage to Azzi last season when she got knocked 2x, however difficult to assess unless you go in and look.

Andrea Hudy has an impressive resume and reputation, and UConn "stole" her back from Texas. Women have an inherent physiological disadvantage compared to men, from hip to ankle anatomy, the common imbalance of quad to hamstring strength, internal structure of the femoral notch, etc, etc. You could put two female athletes side by side and regardless of physical makeup, etc, you could never predict if one vs the other would be more prone to knee injuries. And that's not even including the random incidental contact on the court.

To be clear I am not saying ALL Strength and Conditioning is bad. What I am saying is that what is happening lately at UConn is not normal and if I was the AD I would be evaluating everything related to the Women's BB program including the SD program. What I absolutely would NOT do is except this avalanche of injuries as normal.

 

[HuskyNan]

Gabby had a couple injuries in high school. I’m glad Geno didn’t back away from her

Knee injury worse than feared for Gabby Williams, whose high school career has ended

Gabby Williams’ days as a high school athlete have ended.

www.rgj.com

 

[Geew1992]

sue bird lost most of freshman year to acl and never again (for 20+ years) had any knee issue -- but plenty of broken noses. so there is hope that acls don't always recur.

it's in my head that sue also had the injury playing soccer in high school. can anyone confirm? i may be thinking of caroline doty.

Correct about Doty. Pretty sure bird hurt her knee again in the W

 

[Gordo]

@MilfordHusky - post #15 - gave a complete rundown of Bird's multiple injuries during her career (at least those beginning with college). Any before that have not been reported.

 

[Dynastic]

Highly motivated, highly driven players will always be more likely to suffer injuries. Unfortunately it is part of the package.

Not sure there is any science to back this up… Jordan, Brady, Federer all lasted quite long, a few injuries between them… all really GOATS.

 

[Dynastic]

So bad. Time will tell.

As another poster said, sorry it’s on here… look into the strength and conditioning of our players, change something , adjust something?! Obviously something isn’t working in this area. Geno does recruit very well, but even if a recruit gets hurt in HS he will stick to his commitments and bring the student/athlete onto campus and the team.
P.S. Please bring in some height soon… I don’t care how just legally and fast.

 

[Zinethar]

Not sure there is any science to back this up… Jordan, Brady, Federer all lasted quite long, a few injuries between them… all really GOATS.

Actually there is. I will dig through the mountains of accumulated stuff I got over my 50 years of coaching and try to find some for you. There are always unicorns and I never implied that those injuries were always career ending just that athletes who push their bodies the hardest tend to suffer more injuries. A hamstring injury isn't as devastating as an ACL but certainly is an explosive injury. BTW Jordan only played 18 games one year due to a broken foot.

 

[Bone Dog]

I am not persuaded by the natural impulse to assume some problem in UConn's strength and conditioning program. Azzi's injuries come from events that predate her arrival in Storrs or to be from in-game trauma. Same with Caroline. Same with Ayanna. Same with Jana.

The only ambiguous case is Paige. However, she had ankle trouble in HS, and this followed her to Storrs where she ended up aggravating it in a game (against Tennessee), and had surgery to correct it in the summer after freshman year. What was less well-publicized at the time -- but Paige has spoken about since -- is the vulnerability of folks who've had ankle problems to suffer non-contact knee injuries. She thinks both her knee injuries can be traced to that ankle injury, and now knowing this she spent last year focusing on a rehab program tailored to her situation, including diet, which she resisted her first 2 years. Should the strength and conditioning coach have been more alert to this situation? I doubt this was a factor that can be laid at Andrea Hudy's door.

 

[BBallF]

Two players who originally tore their ACL in high school come to mind. Gabby Williams and Caroline Doty. Gabby did not suffer another ACL tear while at UConn. Caroline tore her ACL at least twice at UConn. It’s pretty much a crapshoot. Players who never had a previous knee injury can suffer an initial injury while playing for UConn. Others who had a previous injury do not have a recurrence. And others have had multiple injury recurrences.

14%, according to medical treatises, of all ACL injuries are reocurrences and the gender differentiation is significant with women more likely to sustain that injury and reoccurrence. For some, it is a career altering event like Shea Ralph. For others, like Sue Bird, it seems like a bump in the road on the path to all-time greatness. It is a painful and debilitating injury and the rehab is strenuous and tedious. I feel for Azzi and her family. Having watched my daughter have 2 of them, I am sure it is very difficult for the whole family watching the games and knowing what a contribution she is capable of. I am also sure there will be some more effective ACL treatment invented one day soon since the reoccurrences bespeak the abject need for one, whether the surgery is by autograft or allograft. Let's hope so. Medicine can do better, especially for this scourge of women athletics.

 

[Cedar]

I don’t have hard data to support this, but from a qualitatative standpoint, I think that UConn had fewer problems with ACL injuries, meniscal tears, and other problems requiring surgery during the years when Rosemary Ragle was the athletic trainer for the UConn women’s basketball program. UConn had remarkably good luck in avoiding serious injuries during the championship years when Maya Moore and Breanna Stewart were playing. Ragle was a part of 10 national championship teams.

Yes, there were injured players such as Morgan Tuck when Ragle was at UConn, but my sense is that serious injuries have become more prevalent in the post-Ragle era.

The relationship could be correlative rather than causal. And as Geno has pointed out, more players coming into UConn in recent years have been playing basketball year-round, with high school basketball and AAU games, leading to more wear and tear on their bodies before they matriculate at UConn. In other words, they may have higher prior probabilities of knee injuries or other medical problems.

 

[TCC Kid]

Highly motivated, highly driven players will always be more likely to suffer injuries. Unfortunately it is part of the package.

What you state sounds right. I'd like to see some provable data. Injuries that I have seen seem incidental, at the moment, with a cause. I won't deny that some prolonged activity or on the flip side, lack of physical training tend to have some impact.. Apparently, read this on this board--AZ suffered a knee injury last year at ND and some say this current suffering is from that injury.. You can't prove it by me.

 

[TCC Kid]

I am not persuaded by the natural impulse to assume some problem in UConn's strength and conditioning program. Azzi's injuries come from events that predate her arrival in Storrs or to be from in-game trauma. Same with Caroline. Same with Ayanna. Same with Jana.

The only ambiguous case is Paige. However, she had ankle trouble in HS, and this followed her to Storrs where she ended up aggravating it in a game (against Tennessee), and had surgery to correct it in the summer after freshman year. What was less well-publicized at the time -- but Paige has spoken about since -- is the vulnerability of folks who've had ankle problems to suffer non-contact knee injuries. She thinks both her knee injuries can be traced to that ankle injury, and now knowing this she spent last year focusing on a rehab program tailored to her situation, including diet, which she resisted her first 2 years. Should the strength and conditioning coach have been more alert to this situation? I doubt this was a factor that can be laid at Andrea Hudy's door.

You, me, and the UConn fan world--are asking questions. I doubt any are pointing fingers. For 3 maybe longer years now--injury after injury shuts down the UConn freight train to the NC--we'd all like to know why? Why isn't Mulkey, Dawn, Kenny Brooks, Iowa, UCLA--having year after year side lining of top talent? Don't you think that is a fair question to ask?
You are correct, if my assumption of what you are saying is correct---not every injury can be or should be traced to the Conditioning coaches. Conditioning, when all the smoke clears, is on the players.
Can you imagine the unstoppable engine you'd have if all were in top shape? Speaking of which--did I see Paige limping in the KU game?

 

[TCC Kid]

Posts on the Boneyard have to make sense? NOW you tell me…

That means, We have trouble, big trouble--right here in river city.

 

[Gordo]

--did I see Paige limping in the KU game?

Yes, I believe you did. Hopefully it's nothing.

 

[hoy-ah!]

I am not persuaded by the natural impulse to assume some problem in UConn's strength and conditioning program. Azzi's injuries come from events that predate her arrival in Storrs or to be from in-game trauma. Same with Caroline. Same with Ayanna. Same with Jana.

The only ambiguous case is Paige. However, she had ankle trouble in HS, and this followed her to Storrs where she ended up aggravating it in a game (against Tennessee), and had surgery to correct it in the summer after freshman year. What was less well-publicized at the time -- but Paige has spoken about since -- is the vulnerability of folks who've had ankle problems to suffer non-contact knee injuries. She thinks both her knee injuries can be traced to that ankle injury, and now knowing this she spent last year focusing on a rehab program tailored to her situation, including diet, which she resisted her first 2 years. Should the strength and conditioning coach have been more alert to this situation? I doubt this was a factor that can be laid at Andrea Hudy's door.

The above, along with Rowdy831's post. In addition to strength and conditioning, nutrition, etc. I'm wondering about the medical aspect of prevention. It's odd to me to read that medical staff correlated Paige's ACL tear to her prior tibial plateau injury. So...if they knew this could happen...why didn't they look to PREVENT it? Set a regimen to minimize the probability of the injury occurring. Management. The same with Azzi, Ayanna, ... Possible exploratory radiology on these known issues periodically.

 

[Brad Palmer]

It's not rocket science (although parts may be!) Incoming women's college freshmen everywhere have played so much more basketball from Grades 5-12 than in previous decades that the amount of injuries should come as absolutely no surprise. It will continue to happen as long as many higher level girls in, for example, Grade 8 now play:

Fall: 20 AAU games, 10 Fall League games
Winter: 15 middle school games, 25 town travel team games
Spring/Summer: 40 AAU games, 10 Summer League games

That's 120 games as a 8th grader and doesn't include any individual showcases or camps!!! If I drive my car 60,000 miles a year and you drive yours 12,000, guess which one will have more wear and tear and break down more often???

And when these girls get to college, the work never ends. Add in the physical wear and tear of scrimmaging in-season against men, non stop conditioning/weight lifting, time dedicated to long distance travel mid week for games while classes are in session and the notorious lack of sleep that has been a hallmark of college students forever and injuries are all but guaranteed.

Lastly...ACL injuries among high school athletes have grown 26% over the past 15 years, according to new research developed by leading organizations in the National ACL Injury Coalition.

So while we can all certainly be upset at the amount of recent injuries for our Huskies, please don't be surprised. Societal change in youth AND college sports is needed. Will it happen???

 

[npignatjr]

Glad he didn’t shy away from Sue Bird. She did ok after freshman year.

Freshman year at UConn, before that none.

 

[npignatjr]

Not sure there is any science to back this up… Jordan, Brady, Federer all lasted quite long, a few injuries between them… all really GOATS.

Brady had a bad knee injury in 2008, changed his training regime from weight to flexibility and changed his diet. I don't believe Jordan was ever a big weight guy. Tennis players I have no idea.

 

[stamfordhusky]

The above, along with Rowdy831's post. In addition to strength and conditioning, nutrition, etc. I'm wondering about the medical aspect of prevention. It's odd to me to read that medical staff correlated Paige's ACL tear to her prior tibial plateau injury. So...if they knew this could happen...why didn't they look to PREVENT it? Set a regimen to minimize the probability of the injury occurring. Management. The same with Azzi, Ayanna, ... Possible exploratory radiology on these known issues periodically.

How do you have any idea what the medical staff did?!? They might have done everything possible to try to prevent the injuries. You have no clue1

 

[Cuango]

Kudos to Azzi’s family for putting out a message of support for Hudy. (UConn strength coach) I think there have been a lot of irresponsible comments questioning/accusing her methods as being potentially responsible for the wave of injuries UConn is currently experiencing! People who literally know nothing about the human body beyond knowing that socks are for your feet, are pontificating about a highly trained professional! Diamond DeShields tweeted “Who the stregth coach there….cuz WTF!”! What does she know about strength training that qualifies her to question the methods of a respected professional?
I too wonder why we’re suffering this tidal wave of injuries but my first inclination is not to try to blame someone who knows more about the human body than 99% of the human race! Anyway, this rant was basically to say that the Fudd’s statement was yet another example of the kind of people we have in the UConn program, classy!

 

[Blond D.]

Geno once made the statement that it seems to him girls that play more than one sport in jr. High and High school don't get hurt as much as the ones who have just played basketball. I don't know if its true but it sounds reasonable to me.

 

[huskeynut]

Human nature demands we have answers. When answers are not forthcoming or the answer you not the one you want, it is time to point the finger and blame someone.

The girls play too many minutes each game. Geno has to manage their minutes better. That was a mantra for some last year. Pretty difficult task when you are down to 7 scholarship players that can dress for a game like last year.

S & C coach is not doing her job. Doesn't UConn look into this stuff? Conditioning is set forth and the girls are to follow it. It's called player responsibility. Doesn't UConn look into this stuff? First, you don't know what UConn staff does. And the staff and program have no obligation to tell you. Pointing fingers for blame is childish.

Geno needs to hire younger assistant coaches that can relate to this new generation. Good quality coaching/ teaching knows no age limit. Good coaching can relate to this new generation. I think Geno has way more knowledge on this. Let him do his job.

Then we have the Geno needs to change the offense, the defense because things aren't working. How do you know what he is doing in practice? Answer - you don't. Before the season started we lost Jana. Then Ayanna has knee surgery and recovery is taking longer, according to some. Caroline is still having difficulties from concussions. That's 3 down you planned on. Then Azzi is done with an ACL. The only one Geno knew about and had time to alter his game plan was Jana. The rest are within the first month of the season.

I will agree with the aspect that too many girls playing basketball year round is not good at all. In fact, any middle school, high school athlete limiting themselves to one sport is not healthy. The philosophy of playing different sports, fall, winter & spring, has been around since I was in high school. I played football, basketball then winter track in the winter and track in the spring. Our oldest grandson is a freshman in high school. He played football this fall. Next up is basketball and winter baseball. The spring is baseball. And BTW - my high school class has already had our 50th reunion.

People need to sit back and let things take their course.

 

[sun]

Not to blame anyone, but look at how C. Williams blew out her knee soon after arriving in her WNBA training camp after being drafted.
And she was a player who was shown lifting extremely heavy weights in a UConn video.

Compare what happened to her to a player like Olivia Nelson Odada who barely ever missed a game who you know never lifted the kind of weights that C. Williams did.

IMO just because a person has developed the muscles to lift super heavy weights doesn't mean that the rest of their body can handle all of the extra strain.
I don't know if there's any science that limits how much weight that a person should lift on a regular basis without compromising other parts of the body that is put under strain to lift all of that weight.
Just because a person can do it doesn't mean that a person should do it.

The professionals can't even manage to define a concussion so how can professionals be relied on to determine how much weight to too much weight?

We still don't know how some players have become injured in the UConn program whether it happened during practice or in the weight training room.
I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone because in the end each player is responsible for whatever they do, & they can do things improperly & beyond what's recommended.

We also don't know what types of drug substances that players are taking including caffine which is the drug of choice for many college athletes.
If they overdo it then that's on them.

 

[PacoSwede]

Human nature demands we have answers. When answers are not forthcoming or the answer you not the one you want, it is time to point the finger and blame someone.

OT

this is interesting to me, because it brings up the idea that people are always demanding answers.

apparently true, but i see that as a problem. why do questions need answers to satisfy us?

why isn't it enough to mull over possibilities and accept that some things don't have answers. that ought to be enough.

accepting that we are incapable of understanding all in life is OK. ... then we can spend our short life just enjoying it rather than satisfying our egos.

clearly, this has nothing to do with uconn basketball. sorry, but the OP pricked a pet topic of mine.

 

[sun]

Trying to recall the video of C. Williams lifting heavy weights.
IIRC she was holding a super heavy weight bar while jumping up & down over & over.
I think she was doing it to improve her jumping muscles
But the amount of strain on her knees looked like it could be extreme.

She also had surgery on the nerve in her arm which was said to be painful when shooting.
Whether the issues are related or not. why would a player want to put so much stress on their body parts when they know they have an injury?
Sure they have a will to win, but that doesn't mean that young players always make the right decisions.

If exercising while using caffine, then they can put even more stress on their body without realizing it.