OT: The Truth and The NCAA Undo Louisville

[BostonCanuck]

So no envelopes stuffed with cash exchanging hands. No drugs involved. No violence of any kind, or threats of the same. No academic fraud or related infractions. Instead, the director of basketball operations arranges striptease dances and sex acts for prospects, student-athletes and others. And for that a national championship banner comes down. Good grief.

 

[UConnNick]

So no envelopes stuffed with cash exchanging hands. No drugs involved. No violence of any kind, or threats of the same. No academic fraud or related infractions. Instead, the director of basketball operations arranges striptease dances and sex acts for prospects, student-athletes and others. And for that a national championship banner comes down. Good grief.

So, are you saying that only cash payments, drugs, violence or academic fraud are worthy of NCAA punishment? If so, I can assure you Louisville has been operating the same way uncovered in the FBI investigation for many years. They got punished for providing extra benefits to athletes. Does it really matter what those benefits happened to be?

The NCAA signatories all agree to abide by their voluminous rule book. Louisville didn't, and even if you personally think hiring hookers to entice recruits to sign with any school is no big deal, Louisville was deeply involved in various pay for play scams involving the shoe companies. This all didn't just happen overnight. Pitino was one of the slimiest dirtbags in all of collegiate sports. He finally got what was coming to him...long overdue.

 

[CL82]

So no envelopes stuffed with cash exchanging hands. No drugs involved. No violence of any kind, or threats of the same. No academic fraud or related infractions. Instead, the director of basketball operations arranges striptease dances and sex acts for prospects, student-athletes and others. And for that a national championship banner comes down. Good grief.

That would be enough for many people. Of course when you add to it, refusal to cooperate it only gets worse. I do think participating in scheme to to pay a recruit $100,000 while appealing it's sanctions didn't help it's cause at all.

 

[Buckaroobanzai]

So no envelopes stuffed with cash exchanging hands. No drugs involved. No violence of any kind, or threats of the same. No academic fraud or related infractions. Instead, the director of basketball operations arranges striptease dances and sex acts for prospects, student-athletes and others. And for that a national championship banner comes down. Good grief.

The payment by Louisville to female prostitutes to engage in sexual congress with 17 and 18 year old recruits does not justify the removal of a national championship banner? You do not accept the reality that Louisville’s conduct constituted sexual violence against both the prostitutes and the recruits? Was not Louisville acting as a pimp with respect to these female prostitutes? Is not there a fundamental moral issue here that transcends a national championship banner?

 

[DefenseBB]

The NCAA will and can do what they want to do.

Actually, no they can’t. The sheer number of lawsuits they have settled is the evidence. The only reason the PSU sanctions stuck were because of the horrible public perception PSU would cast upon itself, but it probably would have won their case- at a very bad cost. Same goes for why Baylor hasn’t really been sanctioned. Criminal vs. sport cheating issue.

 

[DefenseBB]

The payment by Louisville to female prostitutes to engage in sexual congress with 17 and 18 year old recruits does not justify the removal of a national championship banner? You do not accept the reality that Louisville’s conduct constituted sexual violence against both the prostitutes and the recruits? Was not Louisville acting as a pimp with respect to these female prostitutes? Is not there a fundamental moral issue here that transcends a national championship banner?

I think this issue comes down to improper benefits to get players to come to Louisville, without the players, they would not have won that championship. An illicit recruiting tactic.

 

[stamfordhusky]

Is Uconn Mens Basketball next? Will they lose 2014 National Championship? We shall see!

Why would UConn be next? Do you have information no-one else has?

 

[Buckaroobanzai]

I think this issue comes down to improper benefits to get players to come to Louisville, without the players, they would not have won that championship. An illicit recruiting tactic.

To characterize Louisville’s actions as “an illicit recruiting tactic” without evaluating the actual “tactic” is to implicitly compare whoring to the consumption of an “illicit” hamburger. In recruiting these players, in inviting them to visit the Louisville campus, Louisville acted “in loco parentis” for these recruits. I cannot believe that whore mongering would fall within any definition of that term.

 

[UConnNick]

So the moral is hire hookers for your students and get spanked hard. But rape, abuse, and demoralize young women and get off scott free. Thanks Baylor for leading the charge.

The problem with rape and sexual assault is that those are criminal offenses prosecuted and punishable by the government. The issue relating to NCAA eligibility is whether or not a player complies with all the NCAA eligibility rules. I don't believe there is any NCAA rule which would automatically declare a player ineligible for being suspected of committing rape. Those cases have to go through the proper administrative channels within the student disciplinary code of each respective school, and also through the criminal justice system. The NCAA doesn't regulate any of that.

The only way a student guilty of raping another student gets declared ineligible to play is within the schools' own policy rules. They can be suspended or expelled from school, which would effectively end their eligibility to play sports, but that's an action that has to be voluntarily undertaken by the schools, through their own disciplinary process. Obviously if they get convicted criminally they're going to jail, which solves the whole issue of eligibility for good. The NCAA can't punish schools or enforce the schools' own student codes of conduct when it comes to student disciplinary matters.

 

[DefenseBB]

To characterize Louisville’s actions as “an illicit recruiting tactic” without evaluating the actual “tactic” is to implicitly compare whoring to the consumption of an “illicit” hamburger. In recruiting these players, in inviting them to visit the Louisville campus, Louisville acted “in loco parentis” for these recruits. I cannot believe that whore mongering would fall within any definition of that term.

I was responding to the query put to me on why the NCAA put down the verdict they did and yes, as immoral, heinous, disgusting or however you want to put it, it falls under illicit and is why they received the ban that they did. I am sorry you don’t like the category but that is exactly what occurred, an illicit recruiting tactic, just like giving money to get a recruit. Your poor example of a hamberger, falls as a minor infraction, whereas 3 years of strippers became a major violation warranting the action it received-vacating a NC.

 

[CocoHusky]

"The official reason Louisville has to vacate those wins is that they used “ineligible” athletes. Those athletes were rendered ineligible when they received an “extra benefit” — in this case, strippers and prostitutes."

The NCAA's punishment of Louisville is really no punishment at all

Using the NCAA's own rationale from the UNC scandal and assuming the strippers were available to all the Louisville students and not just basketball players then Louisville should not have been penalized.

 

[cbraarj]

Actually, no they can’t. The sheer number of lawsuits they have settled is the evidence. The only reason the PSU sanctions stuck were because of the horrible public perception PSU would cast upon itself, but it probably would have won their case- at a very bad cost. Same goes for why Baylor hasn’t really been sanctioned. Criminal vs. sport cheating issue.

They been doing it for years. It is just harder to get away with now. Also a Division within a Divsion was established just so the SEC, ACC, B12, B10 and Pac10 would not leave the NCAA for their own Association for Major CFB. Its called the Power 5 and slowly we are seeing the effect schools in other conferences.

 

[cbraarj]

Why would UConn be next? Do you have information no-one else has?

I asked the Questions! Never implied I knew anything. Answering questions with questions??????

 

[BostonCanuck]

To be clear, I never said that Louisville should not be punished for this conduct, which of course was outrageous and unacceptable. (Having said that, the assertion by one poster that it constituted "sexual violence" is highly debatable. There's no indication that any participants were coerced into participating, or under the age of consent, for example.)

Obviously, I'm not trying to excuse this behavior. My issue here is that the punishment is too severe for this particular infraction, in my opinion. That's also the official position of the school right now, from what I'm reading. Now some will have a different opinion, and that's fine, but I happen to feel strongly about mine.

 

[mhshuskies]

The school is forced to return all of its NCAA revenue shares. Each round of the tournaments generates a revenue share in the men's tournament. You win and the school earns an increasing share through each round. The money is typically shared on some percentage basis with the rest of the schools in your conference.

...and NCAA says they are not about the money!

 

[Yorkeez4]

Going up against the NCAA is like playing roulette at a crooked gaming joint. If they want you to win you win. If they want you to lose you lose. The NCAA is the most inconsistent adjudicating institution in the world - however there may be a pattern to thier decision making as some have suggested.

Although I feel it is unfortunate that current athletes are the ones punished for infractions of previous players one has to ask how else can you punish a school when investigations take so long. We have to remember that college athletes are only at a school for at most 5 years (in rare cases 6 years).

 

[DefenseBB]

To be clear, I never said that Louisville should not be punished for this conduct, which of course was outrageous and unacceptable. (Having said that, the assertion by one poster that it constituted "sexual violence" is highly debatable. There's no indication that any participants were coerced into participating, or under the age of consent, for example.)

Obviously, I'm not trying to excuse this behavior. My issue here is that the punishment is too severe for this particular infraction, in my opinion. That's also the official position of the school right now, from what I'm reading. Now some will have a different opinion, and that's fine, but I happen to feel strongly about mine.

BC, let me ask you this then, if vacating wins and the NC from 2013 was "too severe" for allowing an assistant to throw non-sanctioned parties for 4 years that entice recruits to come to the school, lie about and obstruct the investigation, what exactly should the punishment be?
Louisville collected $15 mil in money and then sanctioned themselves on a "one year ban to the tournament" for this. We don't know how many of those recruits would have chosen other schools if they weren't enticed. That, I think is the point-non authorized recruiting that created an unfair advantage. With the goal of winning an NC, if you don't punish the school by taking it away, then all schools will cheat as brazenly because the gain far outweighs the penalty. As it was, even being caught with this deplorable act and having received the penalty that they appealed last June, the coaches still authorized payments to at least one recruit, so they clearly think cheating is the way to go to meet the ends.

 

[DefenseBB]

Going up against the NCAA is like playing roulette at a crooked gaming joint. If they want you to win you win. If they want you to lose you lose. The NCAA is the most inconsistent adjudicating institution in the world - however there may be a pattern to thier decision making as some have suggested.

Although I feel it is unfortunate that current athletes are the ones punished for infractions of previous players one has to ask how else can you punish a school when investigations take so long. We have to remember that college athletes are only at a school for at most 5 years (in rare cases 6 years).

"When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor" says Boon, "Leave him alone, he's on a roll" says Otter.
Have you not heard of FIFA or the Olympic Organizing Committees? They are the most inconsistent and corrupt adjudicating institutions in the world...just saying.

As far as a pattern, you give them too much credit. Money, the risk to the money, and the perception that fairness is being meted out are their objectives.

 

[dogged1]

They've done the exact same thing to UCONN before, for a whole lot less. UCONN self reports a violation regarding two players that allowed an agent to buy them plane tickets home, and an entire NCAA tournament appearance, including two wins, gets vacated. And oh, BTW, they wiped out the second half of one player's senior season, applying a different standard of punishment to two players who did the exact same thing. Ricky Moore got a six game suspension. Kirk King essentially gets thrown off the team for the remainder of his career.

Sorry, and I'm no fan of the NCAA, but they do have the right to police their members. The rules state using ineligible player(s) constitute grounds for having tournament appearances and records vacated, and all tournament revenue shares returned to the NCAA. The problem always is they do it arbitrarily and capriciously, and they have their sacred cows that can't be touched, like UNC and Duke. Louisville got exactly what it deserved. UNC should have gotten the same, and Duke should have been forced to vacate its 1999 men's tournament appearance, the year we beat them in the championship game.

When an institution systematically enforces it's rule arbitrarily and capriciously don't the forfeit the right to enforce those rules (police their members)?

 

[BostonCanuck]

BC, let me ask you this then, if vacating wins and the NC from 2013 was "too severe" for allowing an assistant to throw non-sanctioned parties for 4 years that entice recruits to come to the school, lie about and obstruct the investigation, what exactly should the punishment be?
Louisville collected $15 mil in money and then sanctioned themselves on a "one year ban to the tournament" for this. We don't know how many of those recruits would have chosen other schools if they weren't enticed. That, I think is the point-non authorized recruiting that created an unfair advantage. With the goal of winning an NC, if you don't punish the school by taking it away, then all schools will cheat as brazenly because the gain far outweighs the penalty. As it was, even being caught with this deplorable act and having received the penalty that they appealed last June, the coaches still authorized payments to at least one recruit, so they clearly think cheating is the way to go to meet the ends.

The best summary I've found on the sequence of events is here. It certainly is ugly:

Louisville's 2013 title loss is pointless penalty

But I think the part I struggle with most is, "nearly every case involving players deemed ineligible for taking extra benefits ends with the vacation of wins". Does that mean that any infraction of rules during a recruiting process that confers any benefit must result in the vacating of all wins during the recruited player(s) tenure? I'm not seeing a limiting principle here. I don't like that remedy in this case, for the reasons mentioned earlier. I also don't like the due process concerns created when a single entity, in this case the NCAA essentially gets to act as judge, jury and executioner.

As to what would have been appropriate, I'm not sure I know the answer. I would have first focused more on the individuals that engaged in the wrongdoing. For example, the five-game suspension they metered out to Patino seems way too light. And was he the only individual personally sanctioned? If so, why?

And then institutionally, there are the forward-looking scholarship reductions and recruiting restrictions, the financial fines, and the forfeiture of any money received through conference revenue sharing from the 2012-15 NCAA tournaments, that can and have been levied. I'm fine with all of that. But then to also adjust the historical record of games and erase a national championship, that is a bridge too far for me based on what I know about this case.

 

[JordyG]

The best summary I've found on the sequence of events is here. It certainly is ugly:

Louisville's 2013 title loss is pointless penalty

But I think the part I struggle with most is, "nearly every case involving players deemed ineligible for taking extra benefits ends with the vacation of wins". Does that mean that any infraction of rules during a recruiting process that confers any benefit must result in the vacating of all wins during the recruited player(s) tenure? I'm not seeing a limiting principle here. I don't like that remedy in this case, for the reasons mentioned earlier. I also don't like the due process concerns created when a single entity, in this case the NCAA essentially gets to act as judge, jury and executioner.

As to what would have been appropriate, I'm not sure I know the answer. I would have first focused more on the individuals that engaged in the wrongdoing. For example, the five-game suspension they metered out to Patino seems way too light. And was he the only individual personally sanctioned? If so, why?

And then institutionally, there are the forward-looking scholarship reductions and recruiting restrictions, the financial fines, and the forfeiture of any money received through conference revenue sharing from the 2012-15 NCAA tournaments, that can and have been levied. I'm fine with all of that. But then to also adjust the historical record of games and erase a national championship, that is a bridge too far for me based on what I know about this case.

Preach BC.
Firstly the vacation of wins is both ludicrous and vacuous. We as fans and sports appreciators are supposed to ignore the facts of what we saw. Or as Richard Pryor once said, "Who are you going to believe, me or your lyin' eyes?". Maybe we are supposed to go back in time and help Michigan win the game. Second, I've always been one who believes that college players perform a service and should be paid anyway. The bottom factual line is these players are 17 and 18 year old boys when they are recruited. The fact is, whether it is morally right or not, the availability of young women is part of the recruitment process. Do not tell me this only goes on in Louisville, because it does not. This happens across the country in MCBB.

Yes, the NCAA has the right to enforce their rules and codes. Yet, this organization make tons and boatloads of money off of these athletes. Athletes that make little to nothing for their services and are then punished when its revealed they have received anything beyond nothing. Also, let's not make the mistake in thinking this is punishment against Pitino. Pitino is being investigated by the FBI and will never coach again. Vacating wins does not hurt the institution nor does it hurt recruitment. Neither does the so called "death penalty". Penn State was up and running after a mere 2 years. Scholarship reductions and forfeiture of monies received be d***ed, these institutions quickly trundle on. This "punishment" hurts only the players on those winning teams. It tarnishes their legacy. No one else.

Hookers? Sorry. My righteous indignation meter moves barely a few ticks. But Baylor? Baylor which broke none of the NCAA codes or bylaws? Man, for me the needle hit the top and bounced a few times. This institution condoned foul, disgusting, disreputable, vicious and criminal acts against women that eschews morality and the law. Frankly in my America that deserves the death penalty.

 

[DefenseBB]

The best summary I've found on the sequence of events is here. It certainly is ugly:

Louisville's 2013 title loss is pointless penalty

But I think the part I struggle with most is, "nearly every case involving players deemed ineligible for taking extra benefits ends with the vacation of wins". Does that mean that any infraction of rules during a recruiting process that confers any benefit must result in the vacating of all wins during the recruited player(s) tenure? I'm not seeing a limiting principle here. I don't like that remedy in this case, for the reasons mentioned earlier. I also don't like the due process concerns created when a single entity, in this case the NCAA essentially gets to act as judge, jury and executioner.

As to what would have been appropriate, I'm not sure I know the answer. I would have first focused more on the individuals that engaged in the wrongdoing. For example, the five-game suspension they metered out to Patino seems way too light. And was he the only individual personally sanctioned? If so, why?

I hope you find my dialogue as just that- a dialogue and not me impugning your views as opposed to gaining clarity of fact and perspective. I can't speak to all the vacating of wins that coaches and institutions have endured (Boheim, Paterno etc) but in this case I 100% believe it was warranted. I don't think every case involves vacating wins-certainly the UNC case didn't have to vacate wins (they didn't do anything which was also wrong as something should have been done). You know full well "any benefit" or any infraction does not result in vacating wins. The audacity and blatantness in this case warrants this penalty as I have said. Think of Reggie Bush having to vacate the Heisman due to his illegal recruitment and compensation while playing.

The 5 game penalty as you noted, was also, to me, far too light as well. But with his firing and the probability he will be banned from the NCAA, I don't think we have to worry about his standing on the sideline of the NCAA for rest of his career. The assistant who did this was fired and as stated the school imposed its own ban so yes, additional limits were self monitored/imposed.

 

[DefenseBB]

Preach BC.
Firstly the vacation of wins is both ludicrous and vacuous. We as fans and sports appreciators are supposed to ignore the facts of what we saw. Or as Richard Pryor once said, "Who are you going to believe, me or your lyin' eyes?". Maybe we are supposed to go back in time and help Michigan win the game. Second, I've always been one who believes that college players perform a service and should be paid anyway. The bottom factual line is these players are 17 and 18 year old boys when they are recruited. The fact is, whether it is morally right or not, the availability of young women is part of the recruitment process. Do not tell me this only goes on in Louisville, because it does not. This happens across the country in MCBB.

Yes, the NCAA has the right to enforce their rules and codes. Yet, this organization make tons and boatloads of money off of these athletes. Athletes that make little to nothing for their services and are then punished when its revealed they have received anything beyond nothing. Also, let's not make the mistake in thinking this is punishment against Pitino. Pitino is being investigated by the FBI and will never coach again. Vacating wins does not hurt the institution nor does it hurt recruitment. Neither does the so called "death penalty". Penn State was up and running after a mere 2 years. Scholarship reductions and forfeiture of monies received be d***ed, these institutions quickly trundle on. This "punishment" hurts only the players on those winning teams. It tarnishes their legacy. No one else.

Hookers? Sorry. My righteous indignation meter moves barely a few ticks. But Baylor? Baylor which broke none of the NCAA codes or bylaws? Man, for me the needle hit the top and bounced a few times. This institution condoned foul, disgusting, disreputable, vicious and criminal acts against women that eschews morality and the law. Frankly in my America that deserves the death penalty.

Jordy- what do you call the free education these students get? A hardship??? Don't start with the freakin pay crap. As a former D1 athlete who put in significantly more time in training and travel than the pampered basketball players, I find it highly offensive they should be paid. They already have more coaches, more counselors, access to more tutors, take only 12 credits during the season, are granted summer classes which are easier than fall/spring classes so as to make their "education burden" less during the season. They usually get better meal plans, better housing, access to "athlete only facilities" and are treated like royalty.

In any company you have divisions or groups whose profits are greater than other groups but all groups must share the stock prices rise and fall. Similar to the Athletic Departments of the universities, all sports are needed to keep Basketball and Football eligible for the revenue from the playoffs.

Ok, rant over.

Addendum-Baylor uggghhh, I am so disgusted that NOTHING will happen there it is unsettling and a Baptist school to boot...I really don't like lumping all the other cases as that follows the "but so and so's parents let Johnny do it" thinking. I am hopeful a new era of accountability is starting and doing what is right. I am naive on this but I can dream...

 

[BostonCanuck]

I hope you find my dialogue as just that- a dialogue and not me impugning your views as opposed to gaining clarity of fact and perspective. I can't speak to all the vacating of wins that coaches and institutions have endured (Boheim, Paterno etc) but in this case I 100% believe it was warranted. I don't think every case involves vacating wins-certainly the UNC case didn't have to vacate wins (they didn't do anything which was also wrong as something should have been done). You know full well "any benefit" or any infraction does not result in vacating wins. The audacity and blatantness in this case warrants this penalty as I have said. Think of Reggie Bush having to vacate the Heisman due to his illegal recruitment and compensation while playing.

The 5 game penalty as you noted, was also, to me, far too light as well. But with his firing and the probability he will be banned from the NCAA, I don't think we have to worry about his standing on the sideline of the NCAA for rest of his career. The assistant who did this was fired and as stated the school imposed its own ban so yes, additional limits were self monitored/imposed.

Absolutely, DefenseBB. Appreciate both your point of view and the passion with which you are communicating it.

 

[JordyG]

Jordy- what do you call the free education these students get? A hardship??? Don't start with the freakin pay crap. As a former D1 athlete who put in significantly more time in training and travel than the pampered basketball players, I find it highly offensive they should be paid. They already have more coaches, more counselors, access to more tutors, take only 12 credits during the season, are granted summer classes which are easier than fall/spring classes so as to make their "education burden" less during the season. They usually get better meal plans, better housing, access to "athlete only facilities" and are treated like royalty.

In any company you have divisions or groups whose profits are greater than other groups but all groups must share the stock prices rise and fall. Similar to the Athletic Departments of the universities, all sports are needed to keep Basketball and Football eligible for the revenue from the playoffs.

Ok, rant over.

Half of my education was free due to grants. Yet, I didn't have to perform on the field. I wasn't in the gym or in film sessions. That is a job. I worked 30 hrs a week to support my apartment and personal sundries for which I was paid. The performance of these athletes on the field is a job for which they are not allowed remuneration, nor the hint of one. Sorry, but your argument sounds more like jealousy than opinion.

all sports are needed to keep Basketball and Football eligible for the revenue from the playoffs.

It looks to me as if it's the other way around. Without basketball and football most others collegiate sports couldn't be funded. Hopefully that wasn't the case in your sport for your D1 career. BB and football athletes may be treated like royalty because they are cash cows. Commodities. And they became commodities the minute the camera turn on them. When their careers are finished at 30 or so, what is the future of these athletes whose education was "burden free"? Where are the "free meals", and "better housing" then? Where are the life "tutors" that most of these guys need after retirement.

Let's not of course talk (too much) about the physical toil placed on these "pampered" athletes whose lifespans are significantly shorter than yours or mine. Who live from 35 on in their "retirement" as cripples, in pain, or with significant concussion issues. Does that hold for you? These athletes pay for their privilege, then they are tossed aside. Was that the facts in your case? Or did you receive a "burdened" education as I did and make a future with it?