OT: The Truth and The NCAA Undo Louisville

[BigBird]

Hiring hookers for the entertainment of recruits is apparently some sort of violation. The NCAA has caused Louisville to vacate it’s 2013 national championship and also vacate other final four wins. Today, the school’s appeal of the ruling was denied. Something tells me that this is just the beginning for a school trying to scrub off the Pitino factor. Early estimates of the financial impact range upward to $15,000,000.

A variety of snarky rejoinders pop into my head at the moment. To avoid a mod intervention, I’ll refrain from posting them.

 

[BostonCanuck]

Totally classless on the part of Louisville, to be sure. But to me, the punishment far exceeds the crime. An organization with the power to retroactively erase historical fact, and the willingness to do it? That is not due process, nor is it something I can support.

 

[Sonny44]

Totally classless on the part of Louisville. But to me, the punishment far exceeds the crime. An organization with the power to retroactively erase historical fact, and the willingness to use it? That is not due process, nor is it something I can support.

Exactly how I felt about Penn State. What about all the innocent players, coaches, etc.

 

[DefenseBB]

Totally classless on the part of Louisville, to be sure. But to me, the punishment far exceeds the crime. An organization with the power to retroactively erase historical fact, and the willingness to do it? That is not due process, nor is it something I can support.

Not sure I follow your logic. If an Olympian tests positive for performance enhancing drugs, their medal is taken from them and given to the next athlete up.

So if Louisville cheated by enticing recruits to come to play with the aforementioned "benefits", the players would not have been there to win those games and the 2013 title. So why shouldn't the title be taken away? Plus the fact that it was not a one off but an endemic situation of violations.

It's not the death penalty like SMU got so to me, so be it...Now add in this latest debacle and maybe the interim president should just say "thank you" and bow out gracefully because if the Feds have Pitino on the phone getting cash for his recruit-death penalty comes on the table....

 

[DefenseBB]

Exactly how I felt about Penn State. What about all the innocent players, coaches, etc.

A few things, the players all could and should have transferred. Second, if the school was forthright about this when if first happened, didn't lie, cover-up and allow for the abuse to continue, how many innocent lives of young boys would have been saved?

The point of the penalties was to ensure schools do the right thing about their programs going forward and not be blinded by the power of the revenue stream.

Scandals like Enron, Madoff, Penn State and hurt solely unsuspecting victims. So how do you punish the institution if you leave it's structure in place-aren't you saying "hey, I know you buried evidence, lied and ignored obvious facts, but we will let you off with a stern warning...so as not to hurt your current crop of students".

People- a vicious crime took place over years at this place and was allowed to propagate and you want to worry about wins? I feel bad for the current athletes who might not have gone to the school if this had come out when it should have, and they were all allowed to leave, which they should have.

 

[BostonCanuck]

Not sure I follow your logic. If an Olympian tests positive for performance enhancing drugs, their medal is taken from them and given to the next athlete up.

So if Louisville cheated by enticing recruits to come to play with the aforementioned "benefits", the players would not have been there to win those games and the 2013 title. So why shouldn't the title be taken away? Plus the fact that it was not a one off but an endemic situation of violations.

It's not the death penalty like SMU got so to me, so be it...Now add in this latest debacle and maybe the interim president should just say "thank you" and bow out gracefully because if the Feds have Pitino on the phone getting cash for his recruit-death penalty comes on the table....

Program personnel violating rules during a recruiting process is not nearly as causal as an athlete taking steroids, in my opinion. There's no easy answers here as to what an appropriate remedy might be. But as Sonny44 stated, this one creates a lot of innocent victims.

 

[CL82]

Meh, it not like it's a change of policy retroactively applied.

For what it is worth, if you are waiting to hear back what your sanctions are going to be for paying for prostitutes for your players and recruits, it is probably best not to get caught participating in a scheme to pay recruits 6 figures to join your program.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I have very little sympathy for Louisville.... and Pitino has always been just a bit too slick.... He had no idea sex and prostitution was going on in the basement of a dorm named for his own brother in law.... the apparent work of an assistant coach..... and absolutely no idea that recruit was offered 100 grand to enroll at Louisville.... it is a pattern with him....

He has control of 15 players..... that is it... it is not the 100 players a football coach has to monitor.... and to constantly say with straight face that he hadn't a clue of any improprieties at any juncture in his tenure seems ingenuous at best.

 

[MSGRET]

Funny that Louisville gets their title revoked, but the cheating scandal that went on for years at UNC in more than one program AND coaches nothing happens. The NCAA says that the courses were offered to everyone who wanted to attend, yet 95% of the attendees were athletes. They ONLY thing they look at is WHO brings in the money. For almost 20 years the NCAA went after Jerry Tarkanian, he got tired of the harassment, took them to court and won, never did cash the 2 million dollar check that he won from the NCAA. It started because he made a comment about the NCAA enforcement of the rules. It was basically stating that someone like Long Beach State is going to be hit with a rules violation because John Wooden had another recruiting violation that has to be swept under the rug.

 

[CL82]

Funny that Louisville gets their title revoked, but the cheating scandal that went on for years at UNC in more than one program AND coaches nothing happens.

And Syracuse got to keep theirs after a decade long triple scandal involving drugs, payments to players and academic fraud.

 

[j66kicker]

Funny that Louisville gets their title revoked, but the cheating scandal that went on for years at UNC in more than one program AND coaches nothing happens. The NCAA says that the courses were offered to everyone who wanted to attend, yet 95% of the attendees were athletes. They ONLY thing they look at is WHO brings in the money. For almost 20 years the NCAA went after Jerry Tarkanian, he got tired of the harassment, took them to court and won, never did cash the 2 million dollar check that he won from the NCAA. It started because he made a comment about the NCAA enforcement of the rules. It was basically stating that someone like Long Beach State is going to be hit with a rules violation because John Wooden had another recruiting violation that has to be swept under the rug.

So Louisville's mistake was not offering strippers & hookers to all students (and their parents - don't forget they provided 'entertainment' to some visiting fathers as well, so if they don't offer the same to all parents then that could be a technicality).

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Basketball made Louisville and basketball is unmaking it. Louisville is a University because we have a lot of 18-22 year olds who have to go somewhere. Ranked somewhere in the 180s last time I looked. Not that you can't be a less than mediocre educational institution and have a good basketball team, but ... the institution revolved around winning in basketball and now they are wondering what bankruptcy looks like.

A little foreground background. A ‘devastating’ fall from grace. Nearly every corner of Louisville campus in crisis.

Kentucky's higher education "dumpster fire."

 

[UConnNick]

Totally classless on the part of Louisville, to be sure. But to me, the punishment far exceeds the crime. An organization with the power to retroactively erase historical fact, and the willingness to do it? That is not due process, nor is it something I can support.

They've done the exact same thing to UCONN before, for a whole lot less. UCONN self reports a violation regarding two players that allowed an agent to buy them plane tickets home, and an entire NCAA tournament appearance, including two wins, gets vacated. And oh, BTW, they wiped out the second half of one player's senior season, applying a different standard of punishment to two players who did the exact same thing. Ricky Moore got a six game suspension. Kirk King essentially gets thrown off the team for the remainder of his career.

Sorry, and I'm no fan of the NCAA, but they do have the right to police their members. The rules state using ineligible player(s) constitute grounds for having tournament appearances and records vacated, and all tournament revenue shares returned to the NCAA. The problem always is they do it arbitrarily and capriciously, and they have their sacred cows that can't be touched, like UNC and Duke. Louisville got exactly what it deserved. UNC should have gotten the same, and Duke should have been forced to vacate its 1999 men's tournament appearance, the year we beat them in the championship game.

 

[UConnNick]

I have very little sympathy for Louisville.... and Pitino has always been just a bit too slick.... He had no idea sex and prostitution was going on in the basement of a dorm named for his own brother in law.... the apparent work of an assistant coach..... and absolutely no idea that recruit was offered 100 grand to enroll at Louisville.... it is a pattern with him....

He has control of 15 players..... that is it... it is not the 100 players a football coach has to monitor.... and to constantly say with straight face that he hadn't a clue of any improprieties at any juncture in his tenure seems ingenuous at best.

When this story first broke, another coach was quoted as saying there isn't a coach in America that doesn't know everything about what's going on within his or her own program, down to the minutest detail, and anybody who thinks otherwise is nuts.

 

[UConnNick]

You can't truly erase the wins--but my question is: Does the coach give back his NC bonus or the school the NCAA awarded finances? The only hurt you can put on the school or coaching staff is financial or Jail.
Bragging rights will remain only as long as those bragging live, then who really cares about the record book? FEW. Not much of a punishment.

The school is forced to return all of its NCAA revenue shares. Each round of the tournaments generates a revenue share in the men's tournament. You win and the school earns an increasing share through each round. The money is typically shared on some percentage basis with the rest of the schools in your conference.

 

[DefenseBB]

Program personnel violating rules during a recruiting process is not nearly as causal as an athlete taking steroids, in my opinion. There's no easy answers here as to what an appropriate remedy might be. But as Sonny44 stated, this one creates a lot of innocent victims.

BC, I understand and can only say, just like any crime committed on unsuspecting victims, you have to persevere, deal with it and move on. Those that went to PSU or Louisville or Baylor with pure intentions get rooked. They were given opportunities to move on and hopefully did so. The program can't be allowed to benefit from it's malfeasance so unfortunately, a lot of people being hurt are left in its wake. Louisville and its indignation here, is soooo wrong, I hope if the Fed investigation proves correct that money was requested, the NCAA gives it serious consideration of the death penalty AND Louisville wins a lawsuit against Pitino for conducting a rogue program...BTW, his son is on the hotseat at Minnesota...

 

[DefenseBB]

The school is forced to return all of its NCAA revenue shares. Each round of the tournaments generates a revenue share in the men's tournament. You win and the school earns an increasing share through each round. The money is typically shared on some percentage basis with the rest of the schools in your conference.

Typically, the school get 50% of the allotment and the other 50% is pooled and distributed among the other conference members. So if 8 teams from the ACC make the tourney, each round has 50% of the payoff goes to the school and the other 50% is split among the remaining 14 schools.

 

[divots]

With due respect to the great Celtics referenced in Pitino’s notorious March 1, 2000 locker room rant when he called out his young struggling team, I paraphrase his words for him to now reflect on....

”Clarence Darrow is not walking through that door, Rick. Johnny Cochran is not walking through that door and, heck, Perry Mason is not walking through that door. And if you expect them to walk through that door, they’re going to be,well, far beyond gray and old.”

....time to step up and take ownership of the deceptive culture that you created and allow a fine university,a terribly-wronged athletic department and a humbled but fiercely-supportive student body the opportunity to heal and move on....

You ended your Celtic locker room diatribe with words that later turned ironically prophetic: “ You’ve got the wrong guy leading this team.”

I sincerely apologize if this post offends anyone but Pitino’s arrogance and hypocrisy really stings this old coach’s soul.

 

[BostonCanuck]

What exactly are the offenses committed by Louisville that caused the NCAA to vacate the title and other final four wins?

 

[JordyG]

So the moral is hire hookers for your students and get spanked hard. But rape, abuse, and demoralize young women and get off scott free. Thanks Baylor for leading the charge.

 

[j66kicker]

What exactly are the offenses committed by Louisville that caused the NCAA to vacate the title and other final four wins?

"The official reason Louisville has to vacate those wins is that they used “ineligible” athletes. Those athletes were rendered ineligible when they received an “extra benefit” — in this case, strippers and prostitutes."

The NCAA's punishment of Louisville is really no punishment at all

 

[BigBird]

ESPN’s today featured a variety of (male) writers who clearly don’t get it. Their consensus was that the punishment means nothing because the wins cannot be rubbed out; people will always remember the games and who won on the floor.

They miss the point by a mile. It isn’t about “unplaying” a game. It is about removing forever the marketing and bragging rights, and to send a message to potential recruits. It is about refunding earnings (perhaps several millions) acquired by cheating. It is the stigma of sanctions played out within the view of sister institutions. These are not slight penalties.

NCAA enforcement is inconsistent, as others have stated. This does not excuse nor exculpate Louisville. They deserve what they got... and what they will eventually get from the ongoing FBI investigation.

That the interim president of the university is obviously tone deaf and a shill comes as no big surprise. Perhaps he borrowed the play book authored by his colleagues at Michigan State.

 

[DefenseBB]

Funny that Louisville gets their title revoked, but the cheating scandal that went on for years at UNC in more than one program AND coaches nothing happens. The NCAA says that the courses were offered to everyone who wanted to attend, yet 95% of the attendees were athletes. They ONLY thing they look at is WHO brings in the money. For almost 20 years the NCAA went after Jerry Tarkanian, he got tired of the harassment, took them to court and won, never did cash the 2 million dollar check that he won from the NCAA. It started because he made a comment about the NCAA enforcement of the rules. It was basically stating that someone like Long Beach State is going to be hit with a rules violation because John Wooden had another recruiting violation that has to be swept under the rug.

MSGRET- I get your point but you have severely overstated the facts. 185 courses were viewed as fraudulent and were taken by 50% of all NC athletes, 39% comprised football and basketball players. The clear designation is academic oversight vs. athletic oversight. Think military police vs. local police. The NCAA does not and cannot vouch for academic oversight and what constitiutes valid courses within an accredited university. It’s not their jurisdiction. I am not trying to be snarky or contrarian here, just providing clarity. All students could and did take these courses and yes, a disproportionate number were from 2 UNC revenue teams. Disgusting absolutely. Could and should the NCAA have done something, probably but as you even noted, if they overstepped their authority, another lawsuit could have ensued. As it was, UNC was sanctioned by the SOuthern Academic Board which was/is a big deal as it affects research grants.

My last point is to remember that the NCAA is empowered by the University Presidents who limit the power given to this Athletic Oversight Committee. Let’s just rejoice that something that could be done, was done and hopefully it will continue.

 

[cbraarj]

MSGRET- I get your point but you have severely overstated the facts. 185 courses were viewed as fraudulent and were taken by 50% of all NC athletes, 39% comprised football and basketball players. The clear designation is academic oversight vs. athletic oversight. Think military police vs. local police. The NCAA does not and cannot vouch for academic oversight and what constitiutes valid courses within an accredited university. It’s not their jurisdiction. I am not trying to be snarky or contrarian here, just providing clarity. All students could and did take these courses and yes, a disproportionate number were from 2 UNC revenue teams. Disgusting absolutely. Could and should the NCAA have done something, probably but as you even noted, if they overstepped their authority, another lawsuit could have ensued. As it was, UNC was sanctioned by the SOuthern Academic Board which was/is a big deal as it affects research grants.

My last point is to remember that the NCAA is empowered by the University Presidents who limit the power given to this Athletic Oversight Committee. Let’s just rejoice that something that could be done, was done and hopefully it will continue.

The NCAA will and can do what they want to do.

 

[cbraarj]

Is Uconn Mens Basketball next? Will they lose 2014 National Championship? We shall see!

 

[BostonCanuck]

So no envelopes stuffed with cash exchanging hands. No drugs involved. No violence of any kind, or threats of the same. No academic fraud or related infractions. Instead, the director of basketball operations arranges striptease dances and sex acts for prospects, student-athletes and others. And for that a national championship banner comes down. Good grief.

 

[UConnNick]

So no envelopes stuffed with cash exchanging hands. No drugs involved. No violence of any kind, or threats of the same. No academic fraud or related infractions. Instead, the director of basketball operations arranges striptease dances and sex acts for prospects, student-athletes and others. And for that a national championship banner comes down. Good grief.

So, are you saying that only cash payments, drugs, violence or academic fraud are worthy of NCAA punishment? If so, I can assure you Louisville has been operating the same way uncovered in the FBI investigation for many years. They got punished for providing extra benefits to athletes. Does it really matter what those benefits happened to be?

The NCAA signatories all agree to abide by their voluminous rule book. Louisville didn't, and even if you personally think hiring hookers to entice recruits to sign with any school is no big deal, Louisville was deeply involved in various pay for play scams involving the shoe companies. This all didn't just happen overnight. Pitino was one of the slimiest dirtbags in all of collegiate sports. He finally got what was coming to him...long overdue.

 

[CL82]

So no envelopes stuffed with cash exchanging hands. No drugs involved. No violence of any kind, or threats of the same. No academic fraud or related infractions. Instead, the director of basketball operations arranges striptease dances and sex acts for prospects, student-athletes and others. And for that a national championship banner comes down. Good grief.

That would be enough for many people. Of course when you add to it, refusal to cooperate it only gets worse. I do think participating in scheme to to pay a recruit $100,000 while appealing it's sanctions didn't help it's cause at all.

 

[Buckaroobanzai]

So no envelopes stuffed with cash exchanging hands. No drugs involved. No violence of any kind, or threats of the same. No academic fraud or related infractions. Instead, the director of basketball operations arranges striptease dances and sex acts for prospects, student-athletes and others. And for that a national championship banner comes down. Good grief.

The payment by Louisville to female prostitutes to engage in sexual congress with 17 and 18 year old recruits does not justify the removal of a national championship banner? You do not accept the reality that Louisville’s conduct constituted sexual violence against both the prostitutes and the recruits? Was not Louisville acting as a pimp with respect to these female prostitutes? Is not there a fundamental moral issue here that transcends a national championship banner?

 

[DefenseBB]

The NCAA will and can do what they want to do.

Actually, no they can’t. The sheer number of lawsuits they have settled is the evidence. The only reason the PSU sanctions stuck were because of the horrible public perception PSU would cast upon itself, but it probably would have won their case- at a very bad cost. Same goes for why Baylor hasn’t really been sanctioned. Criminal vs. sport cheating issue.