... the next time a blue chip recruit makes a head-scratching college choice out of college. It ain’t for the gumbo.

[Guapo]

I was literally asking you a question about the model you came up with. Do you feel the need to be a jerk when someone asks you something?

I thought you were the one asking the jerkish rhetorical question; if that wasn’t the case, I apologize.

 

[Guapo]

Nope, because what's the alternative? Is Clemson making millions? It's the rare college football program that is even profitable. But pay even a few players and it loses money. Very few schools could pay anything. UConn certainly couldn't.

So sure, start up a minor league football league. Make it like AAA baseball or minor league hockey. See who watches it (nobody).

Clemson is providing him exposure, providing him coaching and facilities, providing him a free education and room and board. Look we can make this like European football if you want. But people watch Clemson because they live in the area or went to Clemson. The players are there only a couple of years. That's not what people come for. They support the school. They certainly have pride in great players. We love Kemba. But if Kemba went to Syracuse and somebody else came he we'd hate Kemba and love the somebody else. Because it's about the school.

I’d say this isn’t a black and white answer. Clemson and UConn are providing the facilities and the platform but Kemba and Lawrence have provided the schools with an invaluable amount of exposure, which is why schools play sports in the first place.

 

[Guapo]

They are almost all non-revenue at this point. Facilities bonds at some schools are upwards of half a BILLION. It is really interesting to look at what happens with sports budgets once a school goes D1 football. Suddenly, that $10 million loss for all your sports jumps to $30 million, which says a lot about the true costs for football.

I'd bet that men's basketball is the only true revenue sport.

Revenue is not the same as profit.

 

[superjohn]

I say this with great care because there is a lot of bad stuff on here, but...

That is literally one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on this site.

You just advocated oil company executives and financial firm executives duking it out to get the best athletes to go to their alma maters and I'm the dumb one for saying you must have loved the Pony Express...

 

[Guapo]

You must have loved the Pony Express.

Do we all actually think schools out there are struggling financially?

Because, aside from some tiny private schools, that is most definitely not the case.

American academia is one of the largest holders of wealth in the world.

 

[Guapo]

Mostly through alumni and state or regional pride. That's 90% of it. Winning certainly helps. It helps drive the pride aspect. Lots of people in every state root for the state U because it represents the state in their mind. But the players? You cheer for and follow the guys who go to your school. You don't cheer for a school because of the guys who went there. Very rarely. Maybe a guy like Zion created a few young Duke fans.

My sister went to UConn and now lives in South Carolina. She's a Clemson football fan now, because that's the local team and lots of alumni and other Clemson fans live there. She's not a Clemson fan because of Trevor Lawrence. They sold out before him and they will sell out after him. And he'll go in the draft next year and probably be a top 10 pick.

But can’t that same logic be applied to Dabo? They’ll have been Clemson fans before Dabo and after Dabo, so why pay Dabo at all?

 

[superjohn]

Do we all actually think schools out there are struggling financially?

Because, aside from some tiny private schools, that is most definitely not the case.

American academia is one of the largest holders of wealth in the world.

Do you actually think paying all the athletes or only the revenue generating athletes well over 300K is sustainable for colleges and college sports?

I assumed what bmayuk was proposing is an arms race between wealthy donor bases, hence my Pony Express comment.

 

[Guapo]

Do you actually think paying all the athletes or only the revenue generating athletes well over 300K is sustainable for colleges and college sports?

I assumed what bmayuk was proposing is an arms race between wealthy donor bases, hence my Pony Express comment.

Nope. But, I do think shoe companies should be able to pay them whatever they want.

 

[Jbirdp5]

I thought you were the one asking the jerkish rhetorical question; if that wasn’t the case, I apologize.

No problem, just would be interested to see how complex things would get if they opened that box, if a player came in unheralded and outplayed expectations could they get more money, leave etc

 

[Guapo]

Do you actually think paying all the athletes or only the revenue generating athletes well over 300K is sustainable for colleges and college sports?

I assumed what bmayuk was proposing is an arms race between wealthy donor bases, hence my Pony Express comment.

Nope. But, I do think shoe companies should be able to pay them whatever they want.

I’m asking this genuinely; walk me through the thought process here.

TV companies pay Big 10 schools 50 million dollars per year.

That money gets distributed in the form of:

1) Astronomical coaches salaries
2) Astronomical admin salaries
3) crazy facility upgrades

What is the argument for keeping the most important part of the labor creating that wealth (the athlete) from getting a cut of that windfall?

 

[superjohn]

I’m asking this genuinely; walk me through the thought process here.

TV companies pay Big 10 schools 50 million dollars per year.

That money gets distributed in the form of:

1) Astronomical coaches salaries
2) Astronomical admin salaries
3) crazy facility upgrades

What is the argument for keeping the most important part of the labor creating that wealth (the athlete) from getting a cut of that windfall?

I hear you but if it's all only about money then scrap every other sport other than football and men's basketball and cut every athletic program that's not in the P5. I don't think this would hold up in the courts.

Say if there is no age limit in football or basketball to play professionally why does it matter that colleges aren't paying kids 500k salaries? All sorts of opportunities to be a professional athlete and there is the opportunity to go to school and be a college athlete.

 

[Guapo]

I hear you but if it's all only about money then scrap every other sport other than football and men's basketball and cut every athletic program that's not in the P5. I don't think this would hold up in the courts.

Say if there is no age limit in football or basketball to play professionally why does it matter that colleges aren't paying kids 500k salaries? All sorts of opportunities to be a professional athlete and there is the opportunity to go to school and be a college athlete.

I hear you too. I just think there must be a happy medium between the current system and one that pays everyone 500k and gets rid of all the other sports.

These haven’t come from you, but the reason I’ve been so worked up about this here is that there are others in this thread that are using rhetorical arguments that I think are downright bad and damaging; basically “shut up and entertain me, kid.”

 

[superjohn]

I hear you too. I just think there must be a happy medium between the current system and one that pays everyone 500k and gets rid of all the other sports.

These haven’t come from you, but the reason I’ve been so worked up about this here is that there are others in this thread that are using rhetorical arguments that I think are downright bad and damaging; basically “shut up and entertain me, kid.”

I agree there should be a better way of doing things. Players being able to use their likeness and a larger stipend seem like a good place to start.

My main point is this stuff is incredibly complicated and some are making it out like everything could be solved over a 2 hour meeting.

 

[NEforceUConn]

Wtf has college bb turned into South America such as us oil/mining companies securing long term contracts. That sounds about right

 

[bmayuc]

I agree there should be a better way of doing things. Players being able to use their likeness and a larger stipend seem like a good place to start.

My main point is this stuff is incredibly complicated and some are making it out like everything could be solved over a 2 hour meeting.

The phrase "this stuff is incredibly complicated" is an easy way for those who support the corrupt status quo to throw up their hands and seem reasonable on any topic.

And no one is claiming this could be agreed over a 2 hour meeting. Talk about a straw man.

But lets be clear - The reason it can't be figured out in 2 hours is not cuz its such an overwhelmingly complex problem set. Almost everyone agrees that the current state of affairs is indefensible morally, ethically, and pragmatically. And there are models in place, right now, in nearly every league and country around the world that are totally workable in this context.

No, the reason this freaking thing will drag on and the carcass of amateur athletics will be dragged behind the money train is that there are a LOT of people getting very RICH and POWERFUL off the status quo - institutions, individuals, and interests. They will resist and do half-measures(bigger stipdends and using their likeness, anyone?) and PR campaigns until the pitchforks and torches chase them out of town.

Oh, and the other reason its complicated is that those PR campaigns are enough to sell people like @superjohn that this whole thing is just so daggum complicated and boy I just wish I could turn on my TV and see my alma mater dunk some basketballs and not worry about the morality of the whole thing.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I’m asking this genuinely; walk me through the thought process here.

TV companies pay Big 10 schools 50 million dollars per year.

That money gets distributed in the form of:

1) Astronomical coaches salaries
2) Astronomical admin salaries
3) crazy facility upgrades

What is the argument for keeping the most important part of the labor creating that wealth (the athlete) from getting a cut of that windfall?

Is it the most important part? Is it really? Clemson's players, minus Dabo and staff, wouldn't win a game. Minus Clemson's investments, they wouldn't have a stadium, a gym, a place to sleep or eat, uniforms or any fans. They'd have zero media exposure. They'd be a bunch of dudes playing football at the park. Sure, they'd be good, so maybe a tip jar could net them $50 between them from people in the park.

It's like the ridiculous arguments that the workers at auto factories are critical. What? They are the most easily replaced element of the whole thing. The engineers designing the car, people handling compliance with thousands of pages of regulations, the building of the factory and procurement of materials, transportation of those and finished products, distribution and sales network, warranty and parts system, advertising, it goes on an on. Yes, Toyota makes billions. But it isn't because of some guy in Tennessee working the assembly line.

Unlike that guy working the line building Camrys, these kids get a chance to earn a college degree, they get to loved by fans (and girls), they get top of the line training and nutrition guidance, they get free room and board, and they get exposure that gives them a chance to make a lot of money. And they get all that by playing a game that they love. Something they'd do for free. They aren't victims. They do get a fair cut in my view, or close to it. I'm sure Trevor the star QB is under-compensated, and the bench special teams guy is over-compensated. But just by a little.

 

[Kenny11]

Zion used his 8 months at Duke to turn himself into a massive brand and set the stage for a shoe company bidding war that will make him more than $200Million very soon. If he went to Italy for a year this wouldn't have happened. Going to college for a year is worth it financially for the future nba stars like Zion even if they aren't getting paid to go to college (though they are most likely getting paid to go to college). My point is that Zion should not be brought up in these arguments. He is an exception. All of the one and done guys are exceptions. One thing that shouldn't be forgotten is how amazing life on campus is for a college athlete which is really the main reason most of the top 20 high school basketball players go to college for a year or 2 instead of going to europe or the g-league.

But when you start talking about football players at huge universities that are more likely to be chewed up and spit out with body and brain damage and only a small chance of becoming an nfl player, and no opportunity to play internationally, the argument for paying the player becomes more reasonable.

 

[superjohn]

The phrase "this stuff is incredibly complicated" is an easy way for those who support the corrupt status quo to throw up their hands and seem reasonable on any topic.

And no one is claiming this could be agreed over a 2 hour meeting. Talk about a straw man.

But lets be clear - The reason it can't be figured out in 2 hours is not cuz its such an overwhelmingly complex problem set. Almost everyone agrees that the current state of affairs is indefensible morally, ethically, and pragmatically. And there are models in place, right now, in nearly every league and country around the world that are totally workable in this context.

No, the reason this freaking thing will drag on and the carcass of amateur athletics will be dragged behind the money train is that there are a LOT of people getting very RICH and POWERFUL off the status quo - institutions, individuals, and interests. They will resist and do half-measures(bigger stipdends and using their likeness, anyone?) and PR campaigns until the pitchforks and torches chase them out of town.

Oh, and the other reason its complicated is that those PR campaigns are enough to sell people like @superjohn that this whole thing is just so daggum complicated and boy I just wish I could turn on my TV and see my alma mater dunk some basketballs and not worry about the morality of the whole thing.

Yep, that's me I've been duped by Emmert's PR campaigns.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

this thread's cool in helping, by market discovery mechanisms, to figure out the current market price for a men's cbb player.

 

[intlzncster]

What if he has a career ending injury next season? Clemson will have made millions off his labor, and an unknown amount in brand equity; yet he could end up without even a scholarship

Sane deal as the pros tho. Unless you are talking contracts as below. Then you should be able to hold a kid in school to honor that contract.

The career ending injury piece is an easy fix. Require schools to allow the kids to finish his schooling if he's medically unfit.

This suggestion does not preclude the existence of contracts, which would provide players protection (more protection than they currently have now!)

Really then, you need a players union . There would also have to be revenue sharing among schools to ensure an equitable playing field. The difference in markets and revenue is too great otherwise. The competition would devolve into something way more lopsided than it already is

What you all are talking about is a professional league. Disband the NCAA for Major college Athletics and form another league.

 

[superjohn]

[


Really then, you need a players union . There would also have to be revenue sharing among schools to ensure an equitable playing field. The difference in markets and revenue is too great otherwise. The competition would devolve into something way more lopsided than it already is

What you all are talking about is a professional league. Disband the NCAA for Major college Athletics and form another league.

Bingo, that's what they're advocating. Bymayuc sneers at half measures of increasing the stipend, using their likeness. All he's advocating is more professional leagues and we see how well other professional football and basketball leagues turn out.

 

[intlzncster]

.
ould there be change. Yup. Some schools would self-select out of the arms race, some would choose to invest at a lower level and come up with different strategies to compete(pay coaches less, spread less money to a more even group of talent, increase other benefits, etc). Some schools would burn through all sorts of cash on their staff and less on players, some would choose to operate at a loss, some would choose not to. Some will offer 2,3, and 4 year contracts to marginal prospects to get an advantage over higher offers at a single year. In short, it will be a burst of new opportunity and change, but not the "end". I will always bleedblue because I attended UConn.

I think it would be really interesting actually. And of course it would be a much, much, much more just system. Which is really the point that matters.

Some schools? The vast majority. How many schools make big profits from their football programs? UConn would certainly be finished.

What you're suggesting is a a professional league with almost no rules.

In terms of equitable competition,it would be the furthest thing from just as you could possibly imagine.

It would create a system where the most well heeled boosters win.

He's not wrong. College Athletics as a whole would be done.

 

[intlzncster]

The phrase "this stuff is incredibly complicated" is an easy way for those who support the corrupt status quo to throw up their hands and seem reasonable on any topic.

And no one is claiming this could be agreed over a 2 hour meeting. Talk about a straw man.

But lets be clear - The reason it can't be figured out in 2 hours is not cuz its such an overwhelmingly complex problem set. Almost everyone agrees that the current state of affairs is indefensible morally, ethically, and pragmatically. And there are models in place, right now, in nearly every league and country around the world that are totally workable in this context.

No, the reason this freaking thing will drag on and the carcass of amateur athletics will be dragged behind the money train is that there are a LOT of people getting very RICH and POWERFUL off the status quo - institutions, individuals, and interests. They will resist and do half-measures(bigger stipdends and using their likeness, anyone?) and PR campaigns until the pitchforks and torches chase them out of town.

Oh, and the other reason its complicated is that those PR campaigns are enough to sell people like @superjohn that this whole thing is just so daggum complicated and boy I just wish I could turn on my TV and see my alma mater dunk some basketballs and not worry about the morality of the whole thing.

The only thing that makes sense to me is to completely abandon the college part of it and make it into a European soccer club system. Schools could someone teams and that sor of. Kids would be employees of the club etc.

Remove scholastics from the equation.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Some schools? The vast majority. How many schools make big profits from their football programs. UConn would certainly be finished.

What you're suggesting is a a professional league with almost no rules.

In terms of equitable competition,it would be the furthest thing from just as you could possibly imagine.

It would create a system where the most well heeled boosters win.

He's not wrong. College Athletics as a whole would be done.

And while some of those college players who aren't NFL ready are pretty good, so were the ones who graduated the year before, and the year before, and the year before. They'd have to compete with CFL and AAF. How did the AAF do? How much did they pay people?

The fact that they need to be non-professionals, enrolled at college at a certain age and only can play 4 years limits the competition they face. Almost all HS football players not opting for college would need to crack the AAF or CFL (maybe NFL for a handful). Very few are even that good.

Be careful what you wish for. The college system is a pretty good deal for most of these guys. I have met CEOs and a lot of successful people who played college football. Met a law firm partner a few months back who played at Trinity. So you squash the college sports model and you just removed a lot of underprivileged kids from college education.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The only thing that makes sense to me is to completely abandon the college part of it and make it into a European soccer club system. Schools could someone teams and that sor of. Kids would be employees of the club etc.

Remove scholastics from the equation.

Sure. And nobody would watch it. So there wouldn't be any money to pay them.