OT: - The new breed: NFL only sports fan. | Page 3 | The Boneyard

OT: The new breed: NFL only sports fan.

cullaville said:
I think pitchers are getting injured due to youth baseball. Baseball used to be (depending on what part of the country you live in) an April to July, maybe August sport. Then it would be fall sports. Now baseball is year round, fall leagues, indoor winter training etc. Thus kids that show promise pitching are pitching year round never giving their arms a rest. Also pitch count limits do not get their arms used to throwing and building up strength. The cycle before this recent years of Tommy John surgery of pitching five or so months and then doing something else seemed to serve earlier generations of pitchers well.

Plus nobody long tosses anymore which builds up arm strength.
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And the sports science has almost everyone throwing high 90's pushing 100.
 
NFL is the perfect sports product for a society that has zero attention span left and loves drama. Also, the betting and fantasy aspect line up perfectly for a sport with a schedule that is super easy to follow and watch. Baseball has none of this, in addition to having no real college presence and about half the players are foreign. Baseball needs to figure something out, although I still watch. I've actually been watching more MLB and less NBA lately. The NBA players are the biggest babies and the hoops quality is trash compared to NCAA.

On another note, I found a new type of sports fan this weekend. My nephew, who is a freshman in HS and plays soccer/baseball/golf/skis, says he plays sports but doesn't watch them, and that the same is true for most of his friends.
 
cullaville said:
I think pitchers are getting injured due to youth baseball. Baseball used to be (depending on what part of the country you live in) an April to July, maybe August sport. Then it would be fall sports. Now baseball is year round, fall leagues, indoor winter training etc. Thus kids that show promise pitching are pitching year round never giving their arms a rest. Also pitch count limits do not get their arms used to throwing and building up strength. The cycle before this recent years of Tommy John surgery of pitching five or so months and then doing something else seemed to serve earlier generations of pitchers well.

Plus nobody long tosses anymore which builds up arm strength.
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This is oversimplifying it, especially scapegoating organized youth baseball, as if it didn't exist in 1950. You know what didn't exist in 1950 (actually, prior to 1974)? Tommy John Surgery.

For one thing, baseball is not a game that can be picked up (and excelled at) as a high school teenager, if only for the specific skills needed, and if a coach is not encouraging their players (not just pitchers. ALL of them) to do long toss, they are subpar for their position. organized programs have limits for pitchers, in terms of offseason throwing programs and pitch counts during games/practice/scrimmages to protect young, developing arms.

40 years ago, the game was amazed by Roger Clemens who lived in the low 90s and could touch 96 or so on occasion. Most pitchers players back then topped out in the mid 80s in order to not get hurt. The only difference between pitchers and position players was throwing with different spin more accurately. Now, pitchers are specialized and can't sniff a major league diamond without the promise of hitting triple digits. At the same time, the harder one throws the more recovery time one needs. Even if only a few seconds between pitches, the game slows down.

Greg Maddox, Jamie Moyer, nor Mark Buehrle could reach 90 mph in a car, but they all won over 210 games, for which average elapsed time of game were well under three hours.

The biggest difference between then and now is that TJ is no longer experimental to only make a salary just north of selling washing machines on commission at Sears. Now it's a backstop for $5 million long relievers.

But sure. Youth baseball is the problem.

Edit: I'd also look at factors external to baseball. For instance, how often are kids on mobile devices, rather than playing catch outside of organized team events?

My guess is they aren't throwing enough.
 
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XLCenterFan said:
NFL is the perfect sports product for a society that has zero attention span left and loves drama. Also, the betting and fantasy aspect line up perfectly for a sport with a schedule that is super easy to follow and watch. Baseball has none of this, in addition to having no real college presence and about half the players are foreign. Baseball needs to figure something out, although I still watch. I've actually been watching more MLB and less NBA lately. The NBA players are the biggest babies and the hoops quality is trash compared to NCAA.

On another note, I found a new type of sports fan this weekend. My nephew, who is a freshman in HS and plays soccer/baseball/golf/skis, says he plays sports but doesn't watch them, and that the same is true for most of his friends.
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You had me until the NBA v. NCAA stuff. I love college hoops but the quality of play is awful compared to the NBA.
 
Everyone talks about MLB season being too it is 6 months long (regular season. The NBA season is 9 months long for an NBA finals team not counting training camp. Teams in all sports should increase roster sizes.
 
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Husky25 said:
This is oversimplifying it, especially scapegoating organized youth baseball, as if it didn't exist in 1950. You know what didn't exist in 1950 (actually, prior to 1974)? Tommy John Surgery.

For one thing, baseball is not a game that can be picked up (and excelled at) as a high school teenager, if only for the specific skills needed, and if a coach is not encouraging their players (not just pitchers. ALL of them) to do long toss, they are subpar for their position. organized programs have limits for pitchers, in terms of offseason throwing programs and pitch counts during games/practice/scrimmages to protect young, developing arms.

40 years ago, the game was amazed by Roger Clemens who lived in the low 90s and could touch 96 or so on occasion. Most pitchers players back then topped out in the mid 80s in order to not get hurt. The only difference between pitchers and position players was throwing with different spin more accurately. Now, pitchers are specialized and can't sniff a major league diamond without the promise of hitting triple digits. At the same time, the harder one throws the more recovery time one needs. Even if only a few seconds between pitches, the game slows down.

Greg Maddox, Jamie Moyer, nor Mark Buehrle could reach 90 mph in a car, but they all won over 210 games, for which average elapsed time of game were well under three hours.

The biggest difference between then and now is that TJ is no longer experimental to only make a salary just north of selling washing machines on commission at Sears. Now it's a backstop for $5 million long relievers.

But sure. Youth baseball is the problem.

Edit: I'd also look at factors external to baseball. For instance, how often are kids on mobile devices, rather than playing catch outside of organized team events?

My guess is they aren't throwing enough.
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Clearly you know youth baseball is completely different now than in 1980 let alone 1950.

Clemens threw just as hard as any of these guys today. They measure it out of the hand now, they used to measure it crossing the plate or halfway to the plate.
 
superjohn said:
Clearly you know youth baseball is completely different now than in 1980 let alone 1950.

Clemens threw just as hard as any of these guys today. They measure it out of the hand now, they used to measure it crossing the plate or halfway to the plate.
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Correct. Clemens was the outlier. Was I not clear on that?
 
Whether good or bad, gambling drives today’s interest in sports, especially the NFL. I’m a sportsaholic so willing to watch anything, but community-based means the most to me. From a historical perspective, this translates to:

1. Hartford Whalers
2. UConn athletics
3. Everything else

It just feels the best for me when the local teams are successful.
 
Husky25 said:
Correct. Clemens was the outlier. Was I not clear on that?
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No, it wasn't clear. Clemens and the other hard throwers from when he pitched throw just as hard as the hard throwers of today. A lot of people are under the impression the hard thowers throw a lot harder today.
 
superjohn said:
No, it wasn't clear. Clemens and the other hard throwers from when he pitched throw just as hard as the hard throwers of today. A lot of people are under the impression the hard thowers throw a lot harder today.
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I'm not talking about speed. I'm talking about the number of players that can get it up there.
 
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Jaydumo20 said:
This could be. But it also feels like people have become their cell phones. You've heard the Pascal quote "all of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit in a quiet room alone". Next time you are watching a football game with someone notice how often they go from game to phone back to game back to phone. I feel that our culture has become too antsy for baseball. I've secretly challenged "huge football fans" to watch a game they have no fantasy or gambling interest in. They want no part of it.
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I don't really get the logic here because football has just as much downtime as baseball. Hell, there are only about 11 minutes of actual action in a three-hour football game.
 
Huskyforlife said:
I’ve actually been disappointed in how little I care about football now. I turn on red zone at 1pm like everyone else, but I usually stop watching by the 4pm games. Forget prime time games too, redzone conditioned me to never accept commercials. I was a die hard fan years ago too, probably almost to the same level I’ve been obsessed with UConn basketball. I really couldn’t tell you what happened, I guess people out grow things sometimes?
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You didn’t grow out of it. The product just sucks. If it wasn’t for betting/fantasy more people would feel the same way.
 
Lefty2one said:
I don't really get the logic here because football has just as much downtime as baseball. Hell, there are only about 11 minutes of actual action in a three-hour football game.
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It's not the game itself. I was pointing out that since football is also largely associated with gambling and fantasy, the modern day football fan usually has: 1)multiple games going, at once
2)plus red zone running all day
3)and are constantly checking their phones for fantasy updates.

The other sports don't usually come with such trappings . Takes more focus.

*I'm aware that people gamble and play fantasy with the other sports but it's negligible compared to football
 
Jaydumo20 said:
I'm one of you. I understand those people who find football convenient and baseball inconvenient. But as a huge Rays fan, I managed to watch almost every game this year , with a 6 month old son and a job.
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'But as a huge Rays fan, I managed to watch almost every game this year , with a 6 month old son and a job.'

ok, that's cool. some of your boy's first, indelible memories will be his pops regularly kicking back and enjoying some game on the telly, with folks dressed kinda funny as they run around on the grass. mostly pleasant, except for the times when u might say a bad word at the pitcher, and then turn to him and say 'don't say that...'

living large methinks. big fun.
i bet his first words will be 'frisbee slider.' i sure like saying it. lol.
 
superjohn said:
And I'm saying that's all skewed by how they measure it.
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How MLB measured fastballs then or now is irrelevant.

If Clemens sat at 93-94mph, most of the rest of the league was generally around 85.

Comparatively, a lot more pitchers today are in the Clemens camp and much less are in the 85 range.
 
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Husky25 said:
How MLB measured fastballs then or now is irrelevant.

If Clemens sat at 93-94mph, most of the rest of the league was generally around 85.

Comparatively, a lot more pitchers today are in the Clemens camp and much less are in the 85 range.
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The guys throwing 85 mph back then would be throwing low 90's now. The guys throwing low 90's back then would be throwing 100 now and there were a lot of them. Nolan could routinely hit 100 back then which is insane.

You said most pitchers pitched 85 back then which is totally irrelevant because the guys throwing 85 would be at like 93 now. The guys throwing low 90's would be throwing 100 now.

There might be more guys throwing straight gas around the league now but there was always a bunch of guys throwing straight gas.
 
Husky25 said:
Now you got it.
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I get that you saying most pitchers pitching 85 is totally meaningless because it's an entirely different measurement and that there were plenty of guys throwing straight gas. If you knew that you did a terrible job explaining it by saying most of the league threw 85 mph and now they don't even get looked at if triple digits isn't in their future.

You stated all of this to dismiss the poster who brought up youth baseball.
 
Husky25 said:
Clemens sat at 93-94mph, most of the rest of the league was generally around 85
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Admittedly I do not have the stats in front of me, but as an avid baseball watcher when Clemens was playing, the rest of the league was generally much, much higher than 85.
 
superjohn said:
I get that you saying most pitchers pitching 85 is totally meaningless because it's an entirely different measurement and that there were plenty of guys throwing straight gas. If you knew that you did a terrible job explaining it by saying most of the league threw 85 mph and now they don't even get looked at if triple digits isn't in their future.

You stated all of this to dismiss the poster who brought up youth baseball.
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That's how jags work. They get way off topic. The original premise of the thread is the development of the NFL-only sports fan. Yet we are arguing about relative velocity of Major League pitching.

BTW, my response to the blaming of youth baseball was to show the effect that Tommy John surgery has had on a given pitcher's mindset regarding throwing as hard as they can for as long as they can. The procedure has rendered "saving one's arm" obsolete. Youth baseball is a red herring.
 
superjohn said:
I get that you saying most pitchers pitching 85 is totally meaningless because it's an entirely different measurement and that there were plenty of guys throwing straight gas. If you knew that you did a terrible job explaining it by saying most of the league threw 85 mph and now they don't even get looked at if triple digits isn't in their future.

You stated all of this to dismiss the poster who brought up youth baseball.
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This is arguing for the sake of arguing and not saying anything. Does anyone really dispute the idea that what used to be an outlier in terms of velocity is now fairly commonplace? That's all he seems to be saying, and I can't imagine why anyone would think that was inaccurate or controversial.
 
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BigErnMcCracken said:
This is arguing for the sake of arguing and not saying anything. Does anyone really dispute the idea that what used to be an outlier in terms of velocity is now fairly commonplace? That's all he seems to be saying, and I can't imagine why anyone would think that was inaccurate or controversial.
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That's not the case, people seem to be under the impression we have all these freaks throwing 100 now, while pitchers were nowhere near that before and that's not the case.

That's why saying most pitchers used to throw 85 mph is unhelpful and spreads this nonsense.
 
The baseball schedule makers absolutely suck, couldn’t play game 2 of Yankees- Cleveland ALDS yesterday and tonights game gets rained out then, originally you were going to have Wednesday and Friday (travel day) as off days. The only off days in a series should be travel days that’s it. Get the games in and get them done especially northern teams.
 
Baseball is its own worst enemy. Just too much filler, too little action. Unlike football, where a fan fills the gap between plays wondering what new strategy will be employed on each side of the ball, there is very little in baseball. Games too slow, too long.

But the most important thing is whether games are important.
NFL: 17 games, every game is critical.
College football: 12 games, all critical
College basketball: 27 games, almost all of them matter
MLS: 34 games, most matter
Premier League: 38, most matter
NBA: 82 - too many don't matter
NHL: 82 - too many don't matter
MLB: 162 games - almost double the next most.

So not only are the games too long, too slow and lacking in strategy interest, but they don't matter. I like baseball, but no one game is must see TV until the playoffs.
 
I don’t think there is anything baseball can do to generate more fan interest without dramatically changing the game. The speed of the game doesn’t matter (a football game is 3+ hours). It’s the lack of action and lack of athletic ability on display that makes it less fun to watch.

Yes, it’s fun to watch Judge or Trout hit a fastball 500 feet. But he gets an at bat once every 45 minutes of real time, and maybe 5 opportunities max during a normal game.

Would people still watch the NFL if Mahomes only attempted 5 passes every game? Or the NBA if Curry was limited to only 5 shot attempts per game?

Maybe some would, but not at the levels now that “casuals” tune in for.

Baseball needs to find a way to get more of their offensive stars involved more often if they ever want to grow the fan base to compete with modern sports.
 
Baseball needs to have more out spoken players, like Lenny Dykstra, Aubrey Huff, Milton Bradley, Carl Everett etc. Stars like Judge and Trout are great guys but not outspoken which is fine, classy star players is great for the game but you do need outspoken idiots they draw fans both homers and haters.
 
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