OT: - The Ivies Cancel Fall Sports | Page 2 | The Boneyard

OT: The Ivies Cancel Fall Sports

While walking the dogs this morning, I saw my neighbor, Dan, a Kansas graduate and ardent supporter of the Jayhawks men's basketball team.

"For the first time in 31 years, I didn't buy season tickets," he said, sadly. (You can imagine what a fervent and committed fan Dan is if he commutes to games from here in San Diego). "I don't think there'll be a season, even without fans in the stands."

Like Dan, I have no insight into how attempts to mitigate the impact of virus over the next few months will evolve, but I feel confident in quoting Justice Harry Blackmun--admittedly on a different and even more significant topic--when he wrote..."the signs are evident and very ominous, and a chill wind blows.″
 
Fairfield Fan said:
I'm not sure. But I seem to recall that some local kids who were recruited by Ivy League schools did, in fact, sign something like a LOI. Not sure if it was one, but they seem to have signed something committing to attending that university. I also recall that there is some mechanism that permits the Ivys to equalize the financial aid offered to a kid from another Ivy recruiting that athlete, so that athletes were given the same, or similar, financial aid at each school. I don't believe that sort of equalization formula is offered to non-athletes at Ivys.

Seems to me that there is more than meets the eye in terms of the pro forma "no athletic scholarships" claim.
Expand ...
After years of losing top kids to D1 schools on “signing day”, as kids had to wait until May to find out if they were accepted to the Ivies, the Ivies instituted their own version of signing day to level the playing field. The Ivy signing day is more like “early admission acceptance.” It does not actually commit an athlete to attend, but it does document their intention to attend. Most of the kids who sign do attend. But every year a handful back out, usually because some D1 school had an extra scholarship they offered late.

As for equalization of financial aid, that is exactly what the clearinghouse in Princeton does. So if a kid has applied and been accepted to multiple Ivies, and tuition and fees are somewhat different from one school to another, the clearinghouse adjusts aid so that the students family financial responsibility is exactly the same regardless of which school they select. With all the Ivies going through the same clearinghouse, the Ivies have effectively leveled the playing field when it comes to financial aid.
 
oldude said:
After years of losing top kids to D1 schools on “signing day”, as kids had to wait until May to find out if they were accepted to the Ivies, the Ivies instituted their own version of signing day to level the playing field. The Ivy signing day is more like “early admission acceptance.” It does not actually commit an athlete to attend, but it does document their intention to attend. Most of the kids who sign do attend. But every year a handful back out, usually because some D1 school had an extra scholarship they offered late.

As for equalization of financial aid, that is exactly what the clearinghouse in Princeton does. So if a kid has applied and been accepted to multiple Ivies, and tuition and fees are somewhat different from one school to another, the clearinghouse adjusts aid so that the students family financial responsibility is exactly the same regardless of which school they select. With all the Ivies going through the same clearinghouse, the Ivies have effectively leveled the playing field when it comes to financial aid.
Expand ...
Exactly. Hasn't changed in at least 30 years.
 
oldude said:
Incorrect. Other than families that pay the full boat, all families of prospective students to IVY League schools must file financial aid paperwork, including tax records through the financial aid clearinghouse in Princeton, NJ. The clearinghouse then determines a financial aid package that is typically made up of 3 components: scholarship aid, loans and work study, with parents required to contribute any difference between the financial aid package and total tuition, room and fees.

All Ivy League students, whether they play sports, or not, are evaluated exactly the same when it comes to financial aid. Scholarship aid is academic in nature. There are no binding LOI's, including no requirement for athletes to actually compete in a sport, in order to receive their financial aid. For that matter, there is no requirement for the Ivy League schools to field teams at all, as today's decision makes clear.
Expand ...


Your not totally correct as it relates to athletes and the Ivy League. There is an agreement among the member institutions that if an athlete receives a financial aid package from a particular institution then the other institutions can match that offer. This was put in place to alleviate the advantage that Princeton, Yale and Harvard had in recruiting due to the size of their endowments.
 
That the Ivy league do not provide athletic or academic scholarship is an insignificant distinction. For all practical purposes the need based financial aide is equivalent to an athletic scholarship in the eyes of NCAA, the players, their parents, the OCR (Title IX). Financial aide and athletic scholars cover tuition and fees, room, board and course-related books. It is impractical to make the distinction because the NCAA and Title IX doesn't care. As an example, the roster size limits (players on full scholarship for WBB) is the same for Ivy league institutions as for all D1 institutions. Another example is when a player decides to transfer from an IVY league school (believe it or not there have been some) the NCAA just doesn't say well you weren't on "scholarship" at that Ivy league school so you don't have to sit a year.
From the player's POV the significant difference (advantage really) is in the admissions process. Ivy League schools lack of participation in the NLI signing day is also insignificant. Some Ivy League will send their most wanted prospective athletes a "likely" letter. Although not legally binding it serves the same purpose as a LOI. For the Ivy League school it says you are likely to be accepted based on all the information we have received, as long as you continue to do well. Note: The vast majority of Ivy League students athletes do not receive a likely letter. You can respond to the likely letter and let the coach know that you are coming and this serves the same practical purpose of the NLI.
After admissions there is very little difference between a full scholarship athlete and an Ivy league athlete whose full needs (tuition and fees, room, board, & books) are being met. The Ivy League teams are also given a budget to take care of the teams just like teams at other NCAA institutions. Those budgets included monetary payments to players for things like meals and incidentals expenses while traveling or across summer sessions. These expenditures are subject to strict monitoring by the NCAA and the Office of Civil Rights (OCR).
After graduation the most coveted Ivy League student athletes are in the same position as full scholarship athletes at other institutions-they are debt free and mom and dad will have kicked in very little (if anything) for tuition and fees, room, board, & books over the prior 4 years.
My experience is largely based on WBB and talking to coaches from Penn, Brown, Dartmouth, Yale, as well as Courtney Banghart during her very first summer on the job at Princeton.
 
CocoHusky said:
That the Ivy league do not provide athletic or academic scholarship is an insignificant distinction. For all practical purposes the need based financial aide is equivalent to an athletic scholarship in the eyes of NCAA, the players, their parents, the OCR (Title IX). Financial aide and athletic scholars cover tuition and fees, room, board and course-related books. It is impractical to make the distinction because the NCAA and Title IX doesn't care. As an example, the roster size limits (players on full scholarship for WBB) is the same for Ivy league institutions as for all D1 institutions. Another example is when a player decides to transfer from an IVY league school (believe it or not there have been some) the NCAA just doesn't say well you weren't on "scholarship" at that Ivy league school so you don't have to sit a year.
From the player's POV the significant difference (advantage really) is in the admissions process. Ivy League schools lack of participation in the NLI signing day is also insignificant. Some Ivy League will send their most wanted prospective athletes a "likely" letter. Although not legally binding it serves the same purpose as a LOI. For the Ivy League school it says you are likely to be accepted based on all the information we have received, as long as you continue to do well. Note: The vast majority of Ivy League students athletes do not receive a likely letter. You can respond to the likely letter and let the coach know that you are coming and this serves the same practical purpose of the NLI.
After admissions there is very little difference between a full scholarship athlete and an Ivy league athlete whose full needs (tuition and fees, room, board, & books) are being met. The Ivy League teams are also given a budget to take care of the teams just like teams at other NCAA institutions. Those budgets included monetary payments to players for things like meals and incidentals expenses while traveling or across summer sessions. These expenditures are subject to strict monitoring by the NCAA and the Office of Civil Rights (OCR).
After graduation the most coveted Ivy League student athletes are in the same position as full scholarship athletes at other institutions-they are debt free and mom and dad will have kicked in very little (if anything) for tuition and fees, room, board, & books over the prior 4 years.
My experience is largely based on WBB and talking to coaches from Penn, Brown, Dartmouth, Yale, as well as Courtney Banghart during her very first summer on the job at Princeton.
Expand ...
As I pointed out previously, there are several significant differences between schools that provide full athletic scholarships based on a signed NLI and the Ivies.

A full athletic scholarship covers tuition, fees, room, board and books. An Ivy League financial aid package depends completely on an athlete’s means, specifically his parents income and wealth. So an athlete at an Ivy League school with limited means might have a financial aid package that covers all costs, while a second athlete from a well-to-do family may receive no aid at all.

This is an issue for the handful of top athletes recruited by the Ivies. As an example, if a top football player is recruited by Harvard and Stanford. Both schools have annual costs around $71,000 per year. Based on the recruits financial means, Harvard might offer the recruit a $30,000 financial aid package. Stanford, on the other hand can offer the recruit a full athletic scholarship, without consideration for his family’s financial means.

The other significant difference is that if the athlete gets to Stanford and decides they no longer want to play football, they lose their scholarship. If that athlete goes to Harvard and decides to stop playing football, their financial aid package is unchanged.
 
.-.
oldude said:
As I pointed out previously, there are several significant differences between schools that provide full athletic scholarships based on a signed NLI and the Ivies.

A full athletic scholarship covers tuition, fees, room, board and books. An Ivy League financial aid package depends completely on an athlete’s means, specifically his parents income and wealth. So an athlete at an Ivy League school with limited means might have a financial aid package that covers all costs, while a second athlete from a well-to-do family may receive no aid at all.

This is an issue for the handful of top athletes recruited by the Ivies. As an example, if a top football player is recruited by Harvard and Stanford. Both schools have annual costs around $71,000 per year. Based on the recruits financial means, Harvard might offer the recruit a $30,000 financial aid package. Stanford, on the other hand can offer the recruit a full athletic scholarship, without consideration for his family’s financial means.

The other significant difference is that if the athlete gets to Stanford and decides they no longer want to play football, they lose their scholarship. If that athlete goes to Harvard and decides to stop playing football, their financial aid package is unchanged.
Expand ...

CocoHusky said:
After admissions there is very little difference between a full scholarship athlete and an Ivy league athlete whose full needs (tuition and fees, room, board, & books) are being met.
Expand ...
 
I don't dispute anything CocoHusky wrote, with one exception:

A student at an Ivy League school who receives financial aid of whatever variety (work study, scholarship grant, loan) is not required to participate in any sport as a condition of receving that aid or continuing their enrollment in the institution. Example: One of my nephews attended my alma mater, Dartmouth, and received substantial financial help from the college in the form of a grant that covered 100% of his tuition expenses. He had ben recruited by Buddy Teevans and staff to play football. He played during his first year, and played well.

No doubt his football skills were considered, among other things, when he applied for admission. His sophomore year he chose not to play football, switching to rugby, a club sport. This change had no effect whatsoever on his financial aid package.
 
I agree with that point. Just trying to point out that only fraction of Ivy League recruits receive a full financial aid package that covers tuition, fees, room, board & books. Most are required to come up with a portion of the the total costs.
 
Sifaka said:
I don't dispute anything CocoHusky wrote, with one exception:
A student at an Ivy League school who receives financial aid of whatever variety (work study, scholarship grant, loan) is not required to participate in any sport as a condition of receving that aid or continuing their enrollment in the institution. Example: One of my nephews attended my alma mater, Dartmouth, and received substantial financial help from the college in the form of a grant that covered 100% of his tuition expenses. He had ben recruited by Buddy Teevans and staff to play football. He played during his first year, and played well.
No doubt his football skills were considered, among other things, when he applied for admission. His sophomore year he chose not to play football, switching to rugby, a club sport. This change had no effect whatsoever on his financial aid package.
Expand ...
You are correct. I did not address this specific scenario in my post. In a sense a player recruited to Ivy league school cashes in a significant benefit in the admissions process. In most cases the athlete was a qualified applicant. To the Ivy League's credit graduation of a qualified applicant becomes the goal should the student decide to no longer participate in sports.
 
Last edited:
oldude said:
I agree with that point. Just trying to point out that only fraction of Ivy League recruits receive a full financial aid package that covers tuition, fees, room, board & books. Most are required to come up with a portion of the the total costs.
Expand ...
Likewise only a small fraction of DI Student Athletes receive a full scholarship.
 
.-.
CocoHusky said:
Likewise only a small fraction of DI Student Athletes receive a full scholarship.
Expand ...
True, except for the so-called revenue sports of football and basketball. Back to my example. Stanford has approximately 88 full scholarships on their football team. I would be surprised if Harvard has more than 10-15% full financial need recipients on their roster.
 
oldude said:
True, except for the so-called revenue sports of football and basketball. Back to my example. Stanford has approximately 88 full scholarships on their football team. I would be surprised if Harvard has more than 10-15% full financial need recipients on their roster.
Expand ...
Hard to fault either model because they are both choices by quality academic institutions. Stanford recently cut 11 sports and announced that no one was going to lose their scholarship and no coaches were going to lose their jobs. Those 88 Stanford football were probably funding the entire athletic department including women's sports. @MilfordHusky son may know better but when the stock market was doing well I was told that Harvard had enough "interest" from endowment that all students could attend tuition free for another decade. The Harvard football team would be just a drop in the bucket in that choice.
 
CocoHusky said:
Hard to fault either model because they are both choices by quality academic institutions. Stanford recently cut 11 sports and announced that no one was going to lose their scholarship and no coaches were going to lose their jobs. Those 88 Stanford football were probably funding the entire athletic department including women's sports. @MilfordHusky son may know better but when the stock market was doing well I was told that Harvard had enough "interest" from endowment that all students could attend tuition free for another decade. The Harvard football team would be just a drop in the bucket in that choice.
Expand ...
I am genuinely disappointed that Stanford’s Synchronized Swimming team will face the axe after this season. That leaves only 3 other schools in the nation with varsity Synchronized Swimming teams: Incarnate Word, Wheaton & tOSU. Assuming they maintain their programs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
167,976
Messages
4,547,875
Members
10,430
Latest member
TeganK


Top Bottom