OT: The Ivies Cancel Fall Sports

[BobbyJ]

okay dokey...wink/wink..guess that's why a Yale soccer coach got caught in the cheating scandal..lol

You should read the case more closely. The coach had nothing to do with financial aid or athletic scholarships. Only with misrepresenting the kid as a recruited soccer player to gain admission. The coach could control nothing beyond that. Please do some research.

 

[VaConnFan11]

What amazes me about the whole situation is that youth sports (baseball, softball and soccer), at least here in Virginia, are at full swing. All the REC leagues are playing with high participation levels and the travel tournaments are full as well and the PROS and COLLEGES can't seem to be able to play?

 

[Carnac]

We are living in an era of alternate reality
I've been on my bandstand since the Spring with the unpopular message that sports: College..Pro whatever...are toast for the near term.

And this was before...what did McEnany call it (the embers) are extinguished.

I was surprised at the resilience of the virus...didn't really expect the level of contagion, that we now see in the South, SouthWest and California...

A few brave people tried to tell us, but they were largely shouted down...
Now the emphasis is on the misguided concept that school doors can be
flung wide open, come the Fall...Ok, if you say so...

Its possible to have sport (with zero or limited attendance) now...If the virus is beaten down...That's a big if. It's possible to do...see Italy, Germany...New York!! Proud to be a New Yorker (even if I'm hiding in NE Vermont).

Hold up your hand if you foresee a national policy to extinguish the problem. Until (When) you do...because eventually its inevitable, regardless of the party in power...this thing only responds to a unified approach...

Until then, normalcy is a wistful fantasy...with woman's collegiate BB, way down the totem pole, virtually out of sight.

As I watch the daily network sports programs, all of which paint a gloomy picture for the possibility of college football this year, I’m becoming less optimistic not by the day, but by the hour. As much as I want to see our team take the floor in November, I don’t think it’s going to happen.

The Ivy League has canceled all fall sports this year, I fear 1-2 others to follow suit in the next few days. ESPN SEC football analyst Paul Finebaum says college football has no chance of happening this season. Big 10 commissioner Kevin Warren has suggested that there may not be fall sports this year. I’m hearing more negative talk about fall sports the last two weeks than positive.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Incorrect. Other than families that pay the full boat, all families of prospective students to IVY League schools must file financial aid paperwork, including tax records through the financial aid clearinghouse in Princeton, NJ. The clearinghouse then determines a financial aid package that is typically made up of 3 components: scholarship aid, loans and work study, with parents required to contribute any difference between the financial aid package and total tuition, room and fees.

All Ivy League students, whether they play sports, or not, are evaluated exactly the same when it comes to financial aid. Scholarship aid is academic in nature. There are no binding LOI's, including no requirement for athletes to actually compete in a sport, in order to receive their financial aid. For that matter, there is no requirement for the Ivy League schools to field teams at all, as today's decision makes clear.

I'm not sure. But I seem to recall that some local kids who were recruited by Ivy League schools did, in fact, sign something like a LOI. Not sure if it was one, but they seem to have signed something committing to attending that university. I also recall that there is some mechanism that permits the Ivys to equalize the financial aid offered to a kid from another Ivy recruiting that athlete, so that athletes were given the same, or similar, financial aid at each school. I don't believe that sort of equalization formula is offered to non-athletes at Ivys.

Seems to me that there is more than meets the eye in terms of the pro forma "no athletic scholarships" claim.

 

[stamfordhusky]

I'm not sure. But I seem to recall that some local kids who were recruited by Ivy League schools did, in fact, sign something like a LOI. Not sure if it was one, but they seem to have signed something committing to attending that university. I also recall that there is some mechanism that permits the Ivys to equalize the financial aid offered to a kid from another Ivy recruiting that athlete, so that athletes were given the same, or similar, financial aid at each school. I don't believe that sort of equalization formula is offered to non-athletes at Ivys.

Seems to me that there is more than meets the eye in terms of the pro forma "no athletic scholarships" claim.

No, there is NOTHING more than meets the eye. No athletic scholarships of any kind. No academic scholarships. No scholarships at all except need based aid. What do you see being signed is a quasi-contract that the Ivy league uses so that their recruits can participate in those signing days. However the ivy league does not use the LOand does not follow those rules.

 

[Golden Husky]

While walking the dogs this morning, I saw my neighbor, Dan, a Kansas graduate and ardent supporter of the Jayhawks men's basketball team.

"For the first time in 31 years, I didn't buy season tickets," he said, sadly. (You can imagine what a fervent and committed fan Dan is if he commutes to games from here in San Diego). "I don't think there'll be a season, even without fans in the stands."

Like Dan, I have no insight into how attempts to mitigate the impact of virus over the next few months will evolve, but I feel confident in quoting Justice Harry Blackmun--admittedly on a different and even more significant topic--when he wrote..."the signs are evident and very ominous, and a chill wind blows.″

 

[oldude]

I'm not sure. But I seem to recall that some local kids who were recruited by Ivy League schools did, in fact, sign something like a LOI. Not sure if it was one, but they seem to have signed something committing to attending that university. I also recall that there is some mechanism that permits the Ivys to equalize the financial aid offered to a kid from another Ivy recruiting that athlete, so that athletes were given the same, or similar, financial aid at each school. I don't believe that sort of equalization formula is offered to non-athletes at Ivys.

Seems to me that there is more than meets the eye in terms of the pro forma "no athletic scholarships" claim.

After years of losing top kids to D1 schools on “signing day”, as kids had to wait until May to find out if they were accepted to the Ivies, the Ivies instituted their own version of signing day to level the playing field. The Ivy signing day is more like “early admission acceptance.” It does not actually commit an athlete to attend, but it does document their intention to attend. Most of the kids who sign do attend. But every year a handful back out, usually because some D1 school had an extra scholarship they offered late.

As for equalization of financial aid, that is exactly what the clearinghouse in Princeton does. So if a kid has applied and been accepted to multiple Ivies, and tuition and fees are somewhat different from one school to another, the clearinghouse adjusts aid so that the students family financial responsibility is exactly the same regardless of which school they select. With all the Ivies going through the same clearinghouse, the Ivies have effectively leveled the playing field when it comes to financial aid.

 

[BobbyJ]

After years of losing top kids to D1 schools on “signing day”, as kids had to wait until May to find out if they were accepted to the Ivies, the Ivies instituted their own version of signing day to level the playing field. The Ivy signing day is more like “early admission acceptance.” It does not actually commit an athlete to attend, but it does document their intention to attend. Most of the kids who sign do attend. But every year a handful back out, usually because some D1 school had an extra scholarship they offered late.

As for equalization of financial aid, that is exactly what the clearinghouse in Princeton does. So if a kid has applied and been accepted to multiple Ivies, and tuition and fees are somewhat different from one school to another, the clearinghouse adjusts aid so that the students family financial responsibility is exactly the same regardless of which school they select. With all the Ivies going through the same clearinghouse, the Ivies have effectively leveled the playing field when it comes to financial aid.

Exactly. Hasn't changed in at least 30 years.

 

[Cornell Lt]

Incorrect. Other than families that pay the full boat, all families of prospective students to IVY League schools must file financial aid paperwork, including tax records through the financial aid clearinghouse in Princeton, NJ. The clearinghouse then determines a financial aid package that is typically made up of 3 components: scholarship aid, loans and work study, with parents required to contribute any difference between the financial aid package and total tuition, room and fees.

All Ivy League students, whether they play sports, or not, are evaluated exactly the same when it comes to financial aid. Scholarship aid is academic in nature. There are no binding LOI's, including no requirement for athletes to actually compete in a sport, in order to receive their financial aid. For that matter, there is no requirement for the Ivy League schools to field teams at all, as today's decision makes clear.

Your not totally correct as it relates to athletes and the Ivy League. There is an agreement among the member institutions that if an athlete receives a financial aid package from a particular institution then the other institutions can match that offer. This was put in place to alleviate the advantage that Princeton, Yale and Harvard had in recruiting due to the size of their endowments.

 

[CocoHusky]

That the Ivy league do not provide athletic or academic scholarship is an insignificant distinction. For all practical purposes the need based financial aide is equivalent to an athletic scholarship in the eyes of NCAA, the players, their parents, the OCR (Title IX). Financial aide and athletic scholars cover tuition and fees, room, board and course-related books. It is impractical to make the distinction because the NCAA and Title IX doesn't care. As an example, the roster size limits (players on full scholarship for WBB) is the same for Ivy league institutions as for all D1 institutions. Another example is when a player decides to transfer from an IVY league school (believe it or not there have been some) the NCAA just doesn't say well you weren't on "scholarship" at that Ivy league school so you don't have to sit a year.
From the player's POV the significant difference (advantage really) is in the admissions process. Ivy League schools lack of participation in the NLI signing day is also insignificant. Some Ivy League will send their most wanted prospective athletes a "likely" letter. Although not legally binding it serves the same purpose as a LOI. For the Ivy League school it says you are likely to be accepted based on all the information we have received, as long as you continue to do well. Note: The vast majority of Ivy League students athletes do not receive a likely letter. You can respond to the likely letter and let the coach know that you are coming and this serves the same practical purpose of the NLI.
After admissions there is very little difference between a full scholarship athlete and an Ivy league athlete whose full needs (tuition and fees, room, board, & books) are being met. The Ivy League teams are also given a budget to take care of the teams just like teams at other NCAA institutions. Those budgets included monetary payments to players for things like meals and incidentals expenses while traveling or across summer sessions. These expenditures are subject to strict monitoring by the NCAA and the Office of Civil Rights (OCR).
After graduation the most coveted Ivy League student athletes are in the same position as full scholarship athletes at other institutions-they are debt free and mom and dad will have kicked in very little (if anything) for tuition and fees, room, board, & books over the prior 4 years.
My experience is largely based on WBB and talking to coaches from Penn, Brown, Dartmouth, Yale, as well as Courtney Banghart during her very first summer on the job at Princeton.

 

[oldude]

That the Ivy league do not provide athletic or academic scholarship is an insignificant distinction. For all practical purposes the need based financial aide is equivalent to an athletic scholarship in the eyes of NCAA, the players, their parents, the OCR (Title IX). Financial aide and athletic scholars cover tuition and fees, room, board and course-related books. It is impractical to make the distinction because the NCAA and Title IX doesn't care. As an example, the roster size limits (players on full scholarship for WBB) is the same for Ivy league institutions as for all D1 institutions. Another example is when a player decides to transfer from an IVY league school (believe it or not there have been some) the NCAA just doesn't say well you weren't on "scholarship" at that Ivy league school so you don't have to sit a year.
From the player's POV the significant difference (advantage really) is in the admissions process. Ivy League schools lack of participation in the NLI signing day is also insignificant. Some Ivy League will send their most wanted prospective athletes a "likely" letter. Although not legally binding it serves the same purpose as a LOI. For the Ivy League school it says you are likely to be accepted based on all the information we have received, as long as you continue to do well. Note: The vast majority of Ivy League students athletes do not receive a likely letter. You can respond to the likely letter and let the coach know that you are coming and this serves the same practical purpose of the NLI.
After admissions there is very little difference between a full scholarship athlete and an Ivy league athlete whose full needs (tuition and fees, room, board, & books) are being met. The Ivy League teams are also given a budget to take care of the teams just like teams at other NCAA institutions. Those budgets included monetary payments to players for things like meals and incidentals expenses while traveling or across summer sessions. These expenditures are subject to strict monitoring by the NCAA and the Office of Civil Rights (OCR).
After graduation the most coveted Ivy League student athletes are in the same position as full scholarship athletes at other institutions-they are debt free and mom and dad will have kicked in very little (if anything) for tuition and fees, room, board, & books over the prior 4 years.
My experience is largely based on WBB and talking to coaches from Penn, Brown, Dartmouth, Yale, as well as Courtney Banghart during her very first summer on the job at Princeton.

As I pointed out previously, there are several significant differences between schools that provide full athletic scholarships based on a signed NLI and the Ivies.

A full athletic scholarship covers tuition, fees, room, board and books. An Ivy League financial aid package depends completely on an athlete’s means, specifically his parents income and wealth. So an athlete at an Ivy League school with limited means might have a financial aid package that covers all costs, while a second athlete from a well-to-do family may receive no aid at all.

This is an issue for the handful of top athletes recruited by the Ivies. As an example, if a top football player is recruited by Harvard and Stanford. Both schools have annual costs around $71,000 per year. Based on the recruits financial means, Harvard might offer the recruit a $30,000 financial aid package. Stanford, on the other hand can offer the recruit a full athletic scholarship, without consideration for his family’s financial means.

The other significant difference is that if the athlete gets to Stanford and decides they no longer want to play football, they lose their scholarship. If that athlete goes to Harvard and decides to stop playing football, their financial aid package is unchanged.

 

[triaddukefan]

Dominoes starting at the Division II level

 

[CocoHusky]

As I pointed out previously, there are several significant differences between schools that provide full athletic scholarships based on a signed NLI and the Ivies.

A full athletic scholarship covers tuition, fees, room, board and books. An Ivy League financial aid package depends completely on an athlete’s means, specifically his parents income and wealth. So an athlete at an Ivy League school with limited means might have a financial aid package that covers all costs, while a second athlete from a well-to-do family may receive no aid at all.

This is an issue for the handful of top athletes recruited by the Ivies. As an example, if a top football player is recruited by Harvard and Stanford. Both schools have annual costs around $71,000 per year. Based on the recruits financial means, Harvard might offer the recruit a $30,000 financial aid package. Stanford, on the other hand can offer the recruit a full athletic scholarship, without consideration for his family’s financial means.

The other significant difference is that if the athlete gets to Stanford and decides they no longer want to play football, they lose their scholarship. If that athlete goes to Harvard and decides to stop playing football, their financial aid package is unchanged.

After admissions there is very little difference between a full scholarship athlete and an Ivy league athlete whose full needs (tuition and fees, room, board, & books) are being met.

 

[Sifaka]

I don't dispute anything CocoHusky wrote, with one exception:

A student at an Ivy League school who receives financial aid of whatever variety (work study, scholarship grant, loan) is not required to participate in any sport as a condition of receving that aid or continuing their enrollment in the institution. Example: One of my nephews attended my alma mater, Dartmouth, and received substantial financial help from the college in the form of a grant that covered 100% of his tuition expenses. He had ben recruited by Buddy Teevans and staff to play football. He played during his first year, and played well.

No doubt his football skills were considered, among other things, when he applied for admission. His sophomore year he chose not to play football, switching to rugby, a club sport. This change had no effect whatsoever on his financial aid package.

 

[oldude]

I agree with that point. Just trying to point out that only fraction of Ivy League recruits receive a full financial aid package that covers tuition, fees, room, board & books. Most are required to come up with a portion of the the total costs.

 

[CocoHusky]

I don't dispute anything CocoHusky wrote, with one exception:
A student at an Ivy League school who receives financial aid of whatever variety (work study, scholarship grant, loan) is not required to participate in any sport as a condition of receving that aid or continuing their enrollment in the institution. Example: One of my nephews attended my alma mater, Dartmouth, and received substantial financial help from the college in the form of a grant that covered 100% of his tuition expenses. He had ben recruited by Buddy Teevans and staff to play football. He played during his first year, and played well.
No doubt his football skills were considered, among other things, when he applied for admission. His sophomore year he chose not to play football, switching to rugby, a club sport. This change had no effect whatsoever on his financial aid package.

You are correct. I did not address this specific scenario in my post. In a sense a player recruited to Ivy league school cashes in a significant benefit in the admissions process. In most cases the athlete was a qualified applicant. To the Ivy League's credit graduation of a qualified applicant becomes the goal should the student decide to no longer participate in sports.

 

[CocoHusky]

I agree with that point. Just trying to point out that only fraction of Ivy League recruits receive a full financial aid package that covers tuition, fees, room, board & books. Most are required to come up with a portion of the the total costs.

Likewise only a small fraction of DI Student Athletes receive a full scholarship.

 

[oldude]

Likewise only a small fraction of DI Student Athletes receive a full scholarship.

True, except for the so-called revenue sports of football and basketball. Back to my example. Stanford has approximately 88 full scholarships on their football team. I would be surprised if Harvard has more than 10-15% full financial need recipients on their roster.

 

[CocoHusky]

True, except for the so-called revenue sports of football and basketball. Back to my example. Stanford has approximately 88 full scholarships on their football team. I would be surprised if Harvard has more than 10-15% full financial need recipients on their roster.

Hard to fault either model because they are both choices by quality academic institutions. Stanford recently cut 11 sports and announced that no one was going to lose their scholarship and no coaches were going to lose their jobs. Those 88 Stanford football were probably funding the entire athletic department including women's sports. @MilfordHusky son may know better but when the stock market was doing well I was told that Harvard had enough "interest" from endowment that all students could attend tuition free for another decade. The Harvard football team would be just a drop in the bucket in that choice.

 

[oldude]

Hard to fault either model because they are both choices by quality academic institutions. Stanford recently cut 11 sports and announced that no one was going to lose their scholarship and no coaches were going to lose their jobs. Those 88 Stanford football were probably funding the entire athletic department including women's sports. @MilfordHusky son may know better but when the stock market was doing well I was told that Harvard had enough "interest" from endowment that all students could attend tuition free for another decade. The Harvard football team would be just a drop in the bucket in that choice.

I am genuinely disappointed that Stanford’s Synchronized Swimming team will face the axe after this season. That leaves only 3 other schools in the nation with varsity Synchronized Swimming teams: Incarnate Word, Wheaton & tOSU. Assuming they maintain their programs.

 

[mudcat]

Rankings | Largest college endowment per student - Highest endowment per student

Want to know the best colleges for 2023? Raptor? ranks colleges in over 20 different categories. Check out all our 2023 rankings here!

www.collegeraptor.com

Shows Princeton in first. Curiously enough, Pomona, Swarthmore and Williams rank among the top 10.

And happy to see that my alma mater is #12