The Glass Wall - Women Coaches

[Icebear]

Not missing it, rejecting it as an acceptable argument. My roots are too deeply set in civil rights to accept accommodations.

 

[alexrgct]

Not missing it, rejecting it as an acceptable argument. My roots are too deeply set in civil rights to accept accommodations.

My family's involvement in civil rights, gay rights, and women's rights movements and thought is profound, but if you have a program that hasn't been successful in 20 years despite every resource imaginable to make it so, you need to change how you operate. There was no evidence a man or a woman with a family was even considered. If you could take the approach Texas has and win with it, great. When you can't, you are doing your investors and customers a disservice. I'd argue that after 20 years, Texas has made its point, and let's not act like Texas's AD is some kind of great bastion of idealism. They were the first AD to segregate itself financially from the rest of the university it represents and operate 100% like a business. Chris Plonsky was a huge part of that.

 

[Vowelguy]

Nope, I get it. I just firmly disagree with it as a way to operate.

 

[ScarlettB]

Jody Runge's story just proves the point that it is still a man's world. For women, it often doesn't matter how successful you are, if you choose to push for equality you are often branded as a troublemaker and unjustly blackballed. Discrimination is never acceptable, but it happens all the time.

I find the unwillingness to hire a lesbian coach due to needing a "good cultural fit" for a program just another attempt to say it is OK to be bias on "moral" grounds. Yet, these same conservative areas of the country have no moral issues with hiring scandal prone straight male coaches. Just look at two of the head coaches playing in the men's final 4 today. John Calipari, who destroyed programs due to cheating and Rick Pitino, who had a tawdry affair and ended up being blackmailed. They have no trouble finding or hanging onto jobs and are highly sought after despite their issues because they win games. IMHO, a fairly typical double standard.

 

[cardfan]

There are excuses and reasons and multitudes of semi-quantifiable facts that can be used to say why things are as they are. Fact is, in WCBB the first letter stands for something that should represent more than just the players, but rather everybody, head coaches, assistant coaches, trainers, managers, ADs, refs, journalists, Trey Wingo replacements, and all of the people who support a sport. What the best ratio of the genders for WCBB is I have no idea, and the sport can only grow if the best minds from both sexes have access to help out, but clearly the squeeze is on for women. Excuses here just roll the asphalt to hell and Bobby Knight clones (right, they win, and that's everything, except everything that's lost).

It is utter BS to put the onus on women's stronger family commitments or regional based homophobia or some lack of sports genes or some kind of jealous cat-fighting bitchiness for the movement away from women's involvement at the higher level of the sports. The self-serving and not-my-fault arguments that are being palmed off for the situation in women's coaching are the same type that have been used throughout history to justify "that's just the way it is" in all sorts of social miasmas. So, many women feel uncomfortable applying for certain positions or have certain family based constraints? Well, as Florida International did, you can take an extra step and persuade a top women's candidate to jump into the pool, just like any corporation does when they see that the easy pick may not be the best pick. ADs can all pick their excuses for taking the easy way out, but until there is a national concerted effort to provide equitable systems for boosting women coaching women, we will slide easily into the easy way out and hire some team's male manager and Jim-Bob's son-in-law. Plausibly covering your backside should not be an AD's conduit for making asinine choices.

Yeah, there are holes in the article, but when you are dealing with a system that is like torn cheesecloth, that's par for the course. Tennessee may wrap itself in a somewhat weirdly anti-homophobic (considering other related issues on the other site) worship of PHS and the sorority of female coaches, but the Vol society is at least strongly devoted to an ideal of women in the coaching role even if much of the bile over there is spent on PHS's female rivals. Most of us on the BY are far more comfortable with Geno as the godfather to a dynasty of the best and brightest women's coaches in the next generation of WCBB's leaders. Either way, we who follow the sport should keep our eyes on the prize, which is a system that opens and give encouragement for coaching opportunities for the players we cheer for and hopefully have an understanding that they too, if they so choose, have every chance to stand over a group of raw freshmen some day as a veteran head coach and tell them, "You can't guard a rocking chair."

excellent post!

 

[cardfan]

My family's involvement in civil rights, gay rights, and women's rights movements and thought is profound, but if you have a program that hasn't been successful in 20 years despite every resource imaginable to make it so, you need to change how you operate. There was no evidence a man or a woman with a family was even considered. If you could take the approach Texas has and win with it, great. When you can't, you are doing your investors and customers a disservice. I'd argue that after 20 years, Texas has made its point, and let's not act like Texas's AD is some kind of great bastion of idealism. They were the first AD to segregate itself financially from the rest of the university it represents and operate 100% like a business. Chris Plonsky was a huge part of that.

You don't have evidence that they weren't. I know from a very good source that Aston lobbied HARD for the head job after Jody retired, but they gave it to Gail, an accomplished coach, who I believed is single.

This is your hang up Alex, if you talk to the student-athletes, the vast majority of them don't care about sexual orientation of the coach, they just want to win. Women's athletics is always going to be associated or perceived as lesbian friendly, but our society is changing and is more accepting, even in TX.

 

[cardfan]

Yeah, but again you are just giving credence to all of the AD's out there that are settling on male coaches who have tiny credentials because generally the ADs are more comfortable with the guys. Interesting that rather than say, "Wow, there's a bunch of qualified female applicants out there to run this line of business if we bothered to look," you instead fall into the old statement pointing to the supposed potency of the old boys network to solve the problem. Obviously, rigid adherence to an "old girls network" (man, does that sound crocked and addle-pated), is not good, but neither is shirking the responsibilities of Title IX's efforts for women as players and coaches. True, you should hire the best person for the job, but make damn sure your criteria are correct (and sorry, "she's not gay at least" won't cut it) and don't let your feeling for what you think is the expedient choice absolve you of the duty to provide opportunities for all in the future.

As to Bobby, since the theme here seems to be to hire a proven winner male coach because bottom line you gotta win (hello Texas Tech), I thought I could throw him in as a jab instead of hurling a whole chair. Right, we can grab the quick and "qualified" coach for a spot and wait for those significant shifts that will manifest themselves in time. Or, as an AD, we can stand up and be a man or woman about the hiring process for WCBB coaches and work for an equitable system of training and hiring coaches.

Loved that too! And, do you hear the men's AD saying let's hire the best person for the job, male or female. right.......

 

[DobbsRover2]

What you and VowelGuy are missing with this argument is that there's a fine line between idealism and continuing to do something that's not working and expecting a different result. Jody wasn't necessarily "out," but her orientation wasn't much of a secret. Neither is Plonsky's. Over the course of Jody's tenure, the program went from powerhouse to afterthought, and she left it with the perception that Texas isn't just lesbian-friendly, but a lesbian program. GG's status was nebulous; I know next to nothing about her personal life. Aston is the same way. The perception now among some is that the program might not even be hetero-friendly. That is the elephant in the room, and this hire does nothing to dispel that. Hell, merely publicly interviewing Bollant or making a point that you at least called KBA and asked whether she had any interest, and this discussion goes away. Instead, the way CP went about things was to conduct a very quick and quiet search and come up with someone who was tight with Jody and not obviously a family woman in a state where stuff like that freaking matters. It was stupid, it was obstinate, and it meets Einstein's definition of insanity. I wish Aston the best, but she's starting with a major hurdle to overcome, one that was an issue for Coach G, someone far more experienced and with far more skins on the wall. And no amount of anti-homophobic idealism will change that.

Alex, still having trouble piecing together the argument here, though you obviously know way more than most or any of us here about the UT and state of Texas situation. You said Aston did at least a decent job recruiting for Texas in the past, so she appears to know the state and have good connections. Leaving aside all the idealistic concerns here and just on a practical side, Aston would seem to be just what is needed for reaching out to Texas recruits now, a talent that GG (who at least was married\divorced and had no connection to the Conradt legacy) and staff lacked. Texas in 2003 certainly got a boost from the Carey transfer, but there were many other pieces to that near NC appearance. So you are really saying that Aston will be fighting against some pan-Texas view of her and the Longhorns among all the recruits as an anti-family place? Texas really requires all female WCBB coaches to at least get married for a while like Kim Mulkey to show they have the "proper values"? I'm not scoffing at this picture, but it just seems incredible to me that the entire HS athletic community would buy into it and shun a school with the dominating resources of UT. It's a big state with lots of good recruits.

But I do entirely get that UT as such a major program did owe it to its image to at least act like their WCBB team was a major player by speaking to other coaches, even if they had already decided that after blowing the money and lost years on the GG experiment that they were not going in that direction again.

 

[cardfan]

What you and VowelGuy are missing with this argument is that there's a fine line between idealism and continuing to do something that's not working and expecting a different result. Jody wasn't necessarily "out," but her orientation wasn't much of a secret. Neither is Plonsky's. Over the course of Jody's tenure, the program went from powerhouse to afterthought, and she left it with the perception that Texas isn't just lesbian-friendly, but a lesbian program. GG's status was nebulous; I know next to nothing about her personal life. Aston is the same way. The perception now among some is that the program might not even be hetero-friendly. That is the elephant in the room, and this hire does nothing to dispel that. Hell, merely publicly interviewing Bollant or making a point that you at least called KBA and asked whether she had any interest, and this discussion goes away. Instead, the way CP went about things was to conduct a very quick and quiet search and come up with someone who was tight with Jody and not obviously a family woman in a state where stuff like that freaking matters. It was stupid, it was obstinate, and it meets Einstein's definition of insanity. I wish Aston the best, but she's starting with a major hurdle to overcome, one that was an issue for Coach G, someone far more experienced and with far more skins on the wall. And no amount of anti-homophobic idealism will change that.

how about fairness and equality?

You do know 2 men were hired in SEC and 2 in the Big 10, right? And 2 in the Pac 12 last year? The men seem to be doing okay.

 

[Icebear]

My family's involvement in civil rights, gay rights, and women's rights movements and thought is profound, but if you have a program that hasn't been successful in 20 years despite every resource imaginable to make it so, you need to change how you operate. There was no evidence a man or a woman with a family was even considered. If you could take the approach Texas has and win with it, great. When you can't, you are doing your investors and customers a disservice. I'd argue that after 20 years, Texas has made its point, and let's not act like Texas's AD is some kind of great bastion of idealism. They were the first AD to segregate itself financially from the rest of the university it represents and operate 100% like a business. Chris Plonsky was a huge part of that.

I don't disagree that there is a need for change in the process just some of the means and goals you were suggesting. Ones that I do not believe need to be sacrificed to succeed. Dobbs says it well.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Just as an aside - GG's ex is presumably looking for work (he was an assistant at Auburn). Maybe Texas can hire him as an assistant just for a laugh?

Sue Wicks is beloved at Rutgers, and has been "out" for years. While you could speak to the liberal NJ environment, I don't think the fan base, largely of an age, are necessarily so liberal.

 

[Vowelguy]

Just as an aside - GG's ex is presumably looking for work (he was an assistant at Auburn). Maybe Texas can hire him as an assistant just for a laugh?

good one

 

[LesMis89]

how about fairness and equality?

You do know 2 men were hired in SEC and 2 in the Big 10, right? And 2 in the Pac 12 last year? The men seem to be doing okay.

I checked out the Illini men's basketball board for their reaction to Matt Bollant's hiring and the posts were pretty universally positive. There were a few posters that made it clear that they were serious when they asked why Bollant wasn't being hired for the men's job. Somehow I doubt that question would have arisen if Matt's name were Marsha and he was a she.

 

[alexrgct]

Alex, still having trouble piecing together the argument here, though you obviously know way more than most or any of us here about the UT and state of Texas situation. You said Aston did at least a decent job recruiting for Texas in the past, so she appears to know the state and have good connections. Leaving aside all the idealistic concerns here and just on a practical side, Aston would seem to be just what is needed for reaching out to Texas recruits now, a talent that GG (who at least was married\divorced and had no connection to the Conradt legacy) and staff lacked. Texas in 2003 certainly got a boost from the Carey transfer, but there were many other pieces to that near NC appearance. So you are really saying that Aston will be fighting against some pan-Texas view of her and the Longhorns among all the recruits as an anti-family place? Texas really requires all female WCBB coaches to at least get married for a while like Kim Mulkey to show they have the "proper values"? I'm not scoffing at this picture, but it just seems incredible to me that the entire HS athletic community would buy into it and shun a school with the dominating resources of UT. It's a big state with lots of good recruits.

But I do entirely get that UT as such a major program did owe it to its image to at least act like their WCBB team was a major player by speaking to other coaches, even if they had already decided that after blowing the money and lost years on the GG experiment that they were not going in that direction again.

Karen Aston is 48 years old. She has been a head coach for four years. She has made the NCAAs once during that stretch. She was an assistant during a mediocre period in Texas WBB history. Although she helped get a few decent pieces of that 2003 team, the real catalyst of Final Four squad was transfer Jamie Carey, a lucky break resulting from her doctor being in Austin and Texas giving her medical clearance to play, while Stanford would not. Her big recruiting wins were subsequent to the F4 run and compete busts. Texas is a cherry job, and this is not the resume of somone who deserves it. It is certainly not a hire that should have resulted from a quiet, brief coaching search without a single other name getting leaked. Especially given the perception Texas has, which Plonksy freaking knows about.

This is all I am going to post on this matter. It must be nice for everyone else to be able to take the moral high ground when you get to root for winning teams coached by the most prominent male coach of women players on the planet or for a team that resides in one of the most socially liberal regions of one of the most socially liberal states. Meanwhile, Texas has ceded its first-mover advantage and is getting its ass handed it by regional rivals Texas A&M, Oklahoma, and Baylor. Why is Texas the only school that has to hoist itself on petard of social justice and equality while everyone else actually gets to win basketball games? The men's programs at Texas would never tolerate such a state of affairs; they'd do what's necessary to win.

 

[alexrgct]

I checked out the Illini men's basketball board for their reaction to Matt Bollant's hiring and the posts were pretty universally positive. There were a few posters that made it clear that they were serious when they asked why Bollant wasn't being hired for the men's job. Somehow I doubt that question would have arisen if Matt's name were Marsha and he was a she.

I doubt that too, but with the same resume, Marsha's hiring would have been embraced at either Illinois or Texas. Bollant is freaking awesome.

 

[Icebear]

Why is Texas the only school that has to hoist itself on petard of social justice and equality while everyone else actually gets to win basketball games? The men's programs at Texas would never tolerate such a state of affairs; they'd do what's necessary to win.

You aren't going to run that one by someone who was here for the Rene Portland years and what the program went through to get rid of her homophobia. I've personally spoken with former members of the team affected by her policies. Texas is near the only school who has had to deal with these issues nor is it the only one for whom some have made the excuses of accommodation.

 

[DobbsRover2]

You aren't going to run that one by someone who was here for the Rene Portland years and what the program went through to get rid of her homophobia. I've personally spoken with former members of the team affected by her policies. Texas is near the only school who has had to deal with these issues nor is it the only one for whom some have made the excuses of accommodation.

I think this would need a fact-finding mission in the nether regions of denial and who-me-ism to begin to understand what's going on down in Texas or for B10 teams such as Nebraska that had it's day in the family-values sun last year. Naivete can run both ways, accepting the ultra-conservatives rule the roost view as gospel or refusing to believe that certain schools in Texas (for instance) might stoop to nasty innuendos for some perceived advantage. Without clear evidence either way, who can really form an opinion, but one thing I will never accept is the credo: "You can't succeed because the moral majority in our area doesn't think you have your morals in the right place." Fortunately, most athletes are greedy. They want titles, they want success, the more the better. No one ever won a BB title sitting in a pew, and kids today know better than to accept the "right way" as defined by the old guard bigots. They play together in national and international games and their eyes are open. Wish we older folk could be too.

 

[Icebear]

"Texas is near the only school who has had to deal with these issues nor is it the only one for whom some have made the excuses of accommodation."


The sentence above should have read, "Texas is NOT near the only school..."

If the struggle for change is not engaged now it will need to be fought sometime. Better now than to deny people rights or force them to live in fear.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Great read; thanks.


(Though not the thrust of the article, was surprised that Portland St is only the D-I coach who's "out". I thought Tara was?)

I have never read anywhere that Coach Vanderveer had come out, but there has been a ton of speculation. It is heartening to see that the speculation has not adversely affected the program in the least.