The Demographic Cliff and UConn

[CCSU97]

My wife and dad are CCSU grads and dad worked there until he died. Love the school. Grew up within a mile of it.

My daughter wants to do special education, so ccsu, western and southern are live options due to that. She didn’t like western’s campus. I am trying to get her to look at ccsu, but kids want exotic and that is too close.

You make a great point. She has the grades to get into say QPec, Sacred Heart, but is education worth the cost?

I dont think so as a teaching profession. I have told her that. So teachig Is a different conversation because they have strong teaching programs.

I just wish they had more options in state. We are gonna look at URI, Loyola Md. and some schools in the south. Breaking my heart.

That's too bad, as CCSU is worth its weight in gold for a teaching degree like that. But I get that some kids won't consider CCSU because it is too close to home, or too small, too old, too uncool. It isn't for everyone. But if the STATE invested in the that university and campus as another alternative option for students, everyone would be better off.

The fact you can leave CCSU with a degree at a much lower cost than a SHU or QU, and get the same jobs as teacher, nurse, accountant, business professional, etc is a much better ROI. But like everywhere else, the costs at Central are going up, yet they have to recruit with subpar academic, support, residential, and athletic facilities. It continues the exodus of shrinking CT high school student population to outside the state.

The reasons Central has its struggles are solely due to the fact UConn has and continues to receive a outsized share of the STATE resources. The fact that no one in CGA wants to build anything that would bee seen as "competing" with UConn in even the slightest way is why there are no other options and kids will go out of state.

If Utah with the same population as CT can support a flagship university, a state university, and compete with a National private - why don't we? Utah/UConn; Utah State/Central; BYU/Yale. Many smaller states are able to support 2 major universities (Mississippi/MSU; Kansas/KSU; New Mexico/NMSU) but we can't.

Maybe the time has come to close WestConn and Eastern and just invest in Central and Southern. What is the use having 4 subpar regional universities, if we can invest and have 2 competitive comprehensive universities in 2 major cities? I'll give you a hint, the UConn administration would never support that type of legislation and would look to increase their own funding.

 

[CCSU97]

UHart is in a death spiral. Mediocre private schools would be the first to go I'd imagine

True, but the easily availability of student loans, poor financial education of borrowers, and a government willing to bail out bad decisions has led to the growth enrollment of these schools.

How does QU go from a party school for kids that couldn't get in anywhere, cost 30k+ a year, and has doubled their enrollment last 20 years? It was basically a expensive diploma mill, now it is a "highly competitive" regional private. It takes an enterprising President, leveraging athletics, and a lot of FREE MONEY.

 

[businesslawyer]

That's too bad, as CCSU is worth its weight in gold for a teaching degree like that. But I get that some kids won't consider CCSU because it is too close to home, or too small, too old, too uncool. It isn't for everyone. But if the STATE invested in the that university and campus as another alternative option for students, everyone would be better off.

The fact you can leave CCSU with a degree at a much lower cost than a SHU or QU, and get the same jobs as teacher, nurse, accountant, business professional, etc is a much better ROI. But like everywhere else, the costs at Central are going up, yet they have to recruit with subpar academic, support, residential, and athletic facilities. It continues the exodus of shrinking CT high school student population to outside the state.

The reasons Central has its struggles are solely due to the fact UConn has and continues to receive a outsized share of the STATE resources. The fact that no one in CGA wants to build anything that would bee seen as "competing" with UConn in even the slightest way is why there are no other options and kids will go out of state.

If Utah with the same population as CT can support a flagship university, a state university, and compete with a National private - why don't we? Utah/UConn; Utah State/Central; BYU/Yale. Many smaller states are able to support 2 major universities (Mississippi/MSU; Kansas/KSU; New Mexico/NMSU) but we can't.

Maybe the time has come to close WestConn and Eastern and just invest in Central and Southern. What is the use having 4 subpar regional universities, if we can invest and have 2 competitive comprehensive universities in 2 major cities? I'll give you a hint, the UConn administration would never support that type of legislation and would look to increase their own funding.

No. Absolutely not.

I'm not saying you're wrong in terms of what UConn wants, but the reason we aren't anywhere near shutting down Western and Eastern is that political beings in greater Danbury and greater Williamantic think it's important that their constituents be able to go to a state run college -- which were originally founded as teachers colleges -- without having to go far. That's why we have four state colleges, founded as teachers colleges, in this geographically small state. Because in a different day and age, where the world (and the state ) were smaller, if you didn't have them close by they weren't a resource for a given area's population, and once we have them political reality makes closing them incredibly dificult. See, e.g., as I mentioned earlier, UConn Torrington, which was literally down to a handful of students before there was the political ability to close it.

And again, I'm not telling you that UConn doesn't think what you say. I'm just telling you that isn't the driving factor.

 

[hoopsfan22]

Maybe the time has come to close WestConn and Eastern and just invest in Central and Southern. What is the use having 4 subpar regional universities, if we can invest and have 2 competitive comprehensive universities in 2 major cities? I'll give you a hint, the UConn administration would never support that type of legislation and would look to increase their own funding.

I think WestConn has been slowly expanding. It's a convenient option for people in the western part of the state. If you're in northern Fairfield or southern Litchfield counties, you're a long way from New Britain and Storrs.

 

[Viet Vet]

My brother graduated from UConn, Magna Cum Laude, in 1978. He applied to several law schools, including UConn. He was rejected by UConn Law, and was told it was because as a CT resident he did not add to the school's geographic dispersion (diversity was not yet the term of choice). So he got his law degree from another school that admitted him......................Duke Law.

 

[CCSU97]

No. Absolutely not.

I'm not saying you're wrong in terms of what UConn wants, but the reason we aren't anywhere near shutting down Western and Eastern is that political beings in greater Danbury and greater Williamantic think it's important that their constituents be able to go to a state run college -- which were originally founded as teachers colleges -- without having to go far. That's why we have four state colleges, founded as teachers colleges, in this geographically small state. Because in a different day and age, where the world (and the state ) were smaller, if you didn't have them close by they weren't a resource for a given area's population, and once we have them political reality makes closing them incredibly dificult. See, e.g., as I mentioned earlier, UConn Torrington, which was literally down to a handful of students before there was the political ability to close it.

And again, I'm not telling you that UConn doesn't think what you say. I'm just telling you that isn't the driving factor.

Absolutely, you are correct. The local politics and their State representatives are a much bigger barrier to closing those universities than UConn. Hell the CSU system itself, labor unions, and other internal factors also make this a huge no-go right now. And yet UConn doesn't have to expend any political capital to get what they ultimately want -- 4 poor sisters that are not competitive to UConn's place in the system.

Yes, you clearly understand some of the historical dynamics - but as you know that's not the whole history . Of course, the State Normal School at New Britain (1849) was established prior to the Storrs Agricultural School (1893). Yet every time the State government revised the higher education system in 1930s, 1960s, 1980s, 2000s UConn worked to strengthen their position and both local and state political interests divided the State University System. In more recent history, UConn actively lobbied and blocked CCSU for years from offering a Doctorate degree in Education. Yes, the State's original teachers colleges was blocked from offering a Doctorate and to this day is limited to just a EdD in Educational Leadership for school administrators.

UConn has gone to great lengths in both direct and indirect ways to stifle any other competative public higher education opportunities outside of their System. Gov. Malloy's worst legacy in education was the creation of the Board of Regents that combined the former Department of Higher Education, the State University System and the Connecticut Community College System; while the UCONN System remained wholly independent.

The State has already combined the entire Community College System into one entity with a single accreditation, and next up will likely be the closing of campuses. WestConn is in dire fiscal and enrollment condition and becoming an even bigger anchor on the State. We need a comprehensive reexamination of the higher education system in Connecticut, and UConn needs to be a part of it. What no one here or in Storrs wants to hear is that its about time for UConn to share in the pain. They have always had their way and received major investments in UConn 2000 and UConn 21st Century. The university is not in a growth pattern, but sustainment and they have to cut and share costs.

 

[CCSU97]

I think WestConn has been slowly expanding. It's a convenient option for people in the western part of the state. If you're in northern Fairfield or southern Litchfield counties, you're a long way from New Britain and Storrs.

No, not really.

With steep enrollment drop, Western Connecticut State University is ‘in crisis,’ consultant says

DANBURY, Conn. (WTNH) – Western Connecticut State University faces a dire future, with a steep enrollment decline and sharply higher operating costs than similar schools, a consultant has con…

www.wtnh.com

WSCU's new interim president says students and faculty center and soul of university

Manohar Singh succeeds Paul Beran as interim leader at Western Connecticut State University in Danbury. He seeks to increase enrollment and WCSU's prominence.

www.newstimes.com

The ultimate solution may end up being a consolidation to eliminate duplicate overhead and administrative costs across the 4 campuses and the BOR staff. Reorganize into the Connecticut State University with the administration and main campus in New Britain. New Haven, Willimantic, and Danbury become campus locations and academic and support offerings are limited or resourced to their market demand.

Again, this is somewhat the current path of the Community Colleges, without a "main" campus. Whereas, New Britain/Central has always been the flagship of the university system.

 

[DFW HOYA]

The second tier private schools are clearly at risk. They are seriously over-priced and simply not worth it.
The northeast is crawling with these schools. One notable example is Syracuse. It is not very selective. It is in a geographic area that is declining rapidly and the weather is ranked routinely as the worst of college weather anywhere. Have you been to Syracuse? It makes Hartford look like Paris. For what it is, it costs too damn much! It has crossed the $80k threshold for cost and to yield the desired class size it admits more 60% of its applicants. In contrast, UConn's cost ranges from $33k in-state to $55k out of state and UConn admits <50% of its applicants. Long term, those numbers just don't work for Syracuse. As the demographic pressure builds, it's schools like Syracuse that are going to slide first.

Syracuse isn't Stanford, but it's not in that perilous third tier of private schools with high admit rates to meet declining enrollment. Check the cost of attendance at...

New Haven: $68,918
Quinnipiac: $69,760
Marist: $72,880
Pace: $77,066
Franklin & Marshall: $80,811

 

[Chuck]

Franklin & Marshall is expensive and supposedly doesn’t give much, if any, merit aid, but it doesn’t belong lumped with those other schools. It has mid-30s acceptance rate. Although that seems a bit off (too low) considering it’s rep vs. other similar schools. QU is at 88%, New Haven at 94%, Pace at 88%. Marist is at a more respectable 59%.

I agree re Syracuse though. It has a star program in Newhouse and the rest of the school has a place with upper middle class kids. They also seem to give some decent merit aid. I know kids that were offered enough to make the price similar to out of state cost at a state U.

 

[JohnFSilver]

That's too bad, as CCSU is worth its weight in gold for a teaching degree like that. But I get that some kids won't consider CCSU because it is too close to home, or too small, too old, too uncool. It isn't for everyone. But if the STATE invested in the that university and campus as another alternative option for students, everyone would be better off.

The fact you can leave CCSU with a degree at a much lower cost than a SHU or QU, and get the same jobs as teacher, nurse, accountant, business professional, etc is a much better ROI. But like everywhere else, the costs at Central are going up, yet they have to recruit with subpar academic, support, residential, and athletic facilities. It continues the exodus of shrinking CT high school student population to outside the state.

The reasons Central has its struggles are solely due to the fact UConn has and continues to receive a outsized share of the STATE resources. The fact that no one in CGA wants to build anything that would bee seen as "competing" with UConn in even the slightest way is why there are no other options and kids will go out of state.

If Utah with the same population as CT can support a flagship university, a state university, and compete with a National private - why don't we? Utah/UConn; Utah State/Central; BYU/Yale. Many smaller states are able to support 2 major universities (Mississippi/MSU; Kansas/KSU; New Mexico/NMSU) but we can't.

Maybe the time has come to close WestConn and Eastern and just invest in Central and Southern. What is the use having 4 subpar regional universities, if we can invest and have 2 competitive comprehensive universities in 2 major cities? I'll give you a hint, the UConn administration would never support that type of legislation and would look to increase their own funding.

I don’t disagree on ccsu. If it wasn’t where it is, perfect college for her if she wants to be a teacher. Might end up there anyway, and I would be thrilled.

 

[noeynox]

That's too bad, as CCSU is worth its weight in gold for a teaching degree like that. But I get that some kids won't consider CCSU because it is too close to home, or too small, too old, too uncool. It isn't for everyone. But if the STATE invested in the that university and campus as another alternative option for students, everyone would be better off.

The fact you can leave CCSU with a degree at a much lower cost than a SHU or QU, and get the same jobs as teacher, nurse, accountant, business professional, etc is a much better ROI. But like everywhere else, the costs at Central are going up, yet they have to recruit with subpar academic, support, residential, and athletic facilities. It continues the exodus of shrinking CT high school student population to outside the state.

The reasons Central has its struggles are solely due to the fact UConn has and continues to receive a outsized share of the STATE resources. The fact that no one in CGA wants to build anything that would bee seen as "competing" with UConn in even the slightest way is why there are no other options and kids will go out of state.

If Utah with the same population as CT can support a flagship university, a state university, and compete with a National private - why don't we? Utah/UConn; Utah State/Central; BYU/Yale. Many smaller states are able to support 2 major universities (Mississippi/MSU; Kansas/KSU; New Mexico/NMSU) but we can't.

Maybe the time has come to close WestConn and Eastern and just invest in Central and Southern. What is the use having 4 subpar regional universities, if we can invest and have 2 competitive comprehensive universities in 2 major cities? I'll give you a hint, the UConn administration would never support that type of legislation and would look to increase their own funding.

Like this post, but why not just have one Connecticut State University with branches at existing CSUs? Make Central the primary hub. I only say this cause part of the CSUs being spread out like they are is to give people all over the state a drivable option. Living in Waterbury I chose Wesconn in part because the commute down 84 west was easier than 84 east back then pre 84 east widening.

 

[UConnJim]

It is easier to teach a STEM person to be creative than to teach a creative person how to code.

When I was at UConn, marketing was a big fat joke of a major within the business school for people that wanted a business degree without working that hard. I should know, because that is how I got into the business school with my sophomore year grades. I switched to finance within a month. Today, marketing is a completely different degree, and I think one that will be very much in demand in the future. Marketing has become so much more complex across channels and platforms, and marketers need to know how all of those things interact. Sales and distribution has changed as much as any function in the economy the last 20 years. I think marketing is a great major for young people looking to learn a practical skill.

In today's world, coding is more of a commodity than creative work. And, I'm not talking about a marketing degree. I'm talking about creative people. People who have backgrounds in music, arts, drama, languages,... who can apply their talents to businesses.

And, you are crazy if you think you can teach a coder to be creative.

 

[Travelman6]

You are using anecdotal examples, and I am pointing to a systematic problem that the universities are in a large part responsible for. Kids are welcome to study anything they want, no matter what their major. But given the cost, going to school is an economic decision, and there are severe economic consequences for making a bad one. To paraphrase Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting, don't be the person who "dropped $150,000 on a fudging education that you could have gotten for $1.50 in late charges at the public library." No one is stopping a CS major from reading literature. I am just suggesting that spending $80,000 a year on the Classics is a bad economic investment, and will result in a degree that, for many of those graduates, is economically useless.

Colleges put kids in these degrees because they are cheap and therefore very profitable for the school. The colleges have to know they are not preparing many of their graduates for a post-college world, yet they sell these $300,000 degrees anyway.

My point is any degree COULD be "useless, it depends on the kid. Just like some kids can make even a "useless" degree work for them. But I'll never make a blanket statement that "x" degree is 100% useless all the time. Nor is any degree ever 100% useful for every single person who has it.

The cost of education is the major issue, it is out of hand in the USA. And yes, the library is a wealth of knowledge, much cheaper than UNI but too many employers like to see that 100K+ paper....

 

[JohnFSilver]

In today's world, coding is more of a commodity than creative work. And, I'm not talking about a marketing degree. I'm talking about creative people. People who have backgrounds in music, arts, drama, languages,... who can apply their talents to businesses.

And, you are crazy if you think you can teach a coder to be creative.

I have worked at three fortune 100 companies since I left media. There is zero chance you can get a stem grad to learn creative work. That is not craft than it is skill.

And on writing, half of the time I deal with executives who can’t write out of a paper bag. They are incredibly smart and competent, that’s why they come to me when they need to communicate .

 

[nelsonmuntz]

In today's world, coding is more of a commodity than creative work. And, I'm not talking about a marketing degree. I'm talking about creative people. People who have backgrounds in music, arts, drama, languages,... who can apply their talents to businesses.

And, you are crazy if you think you can teach a coder to be creative.

I work with tech companies a lot. Even small, B2B technology companies have amazingly creative people. Technology companies solve problems for their customers, and they often solve problems that no one has ever solved before.

I will also disagree about many in the arts, music and drama. They like to consider themselves superior and creative, but most product is either recycled or at least derivative of the work of others.

 

[JohnFSilver]

I can't remember where I saw this, but one of the brilliant tech CEOs said STEM was the way to go 10 to 15 years ago as it was very hard to hire engineers. Now, he said the hardest person to find is the creative person. Business needs people to tell their stories, to market their products, etc. For example, look at the creative content being developed around sports teams today.

Not to toot my career path…

But there is information overload out there. Especially in big business. Data, analytics, information…

How do you tell your story?

UConn sports is perfect example. What is the narrative? What is the reality? They have failed to tell their story over most of the last two decades.

That is why I liked that UConn athletics annual report today.

There is a craft and strategy how to tell people things, when to say it, how to package it, and what information to give them.

Most important is the old journalism trade of knowing your audience. That is actually a lot harder to figure out than you think. I have some real world examples too.

 

[Kolumbo]

Our town in CT had to add a class to elementary grades and there are several new house developments, probably in the $600k-$700k range. Obviously doesn't reflect all of CT but interesting nevertheless.

Just spoke with someone whose son is going to UConn Stamford. Lots of perks included down there travel-wise. So much to do within a short bus or train ride while living in a small city. 2,700 students on campus including dorms.

Home | Stamford : Stamford

Stamford

stamford.uconn.edu

 

[phillionaire]

I have worked at three fortune 100 companies since I left media. There is zero chance you can get a stem grad to learn creative work. That is not craft than it is skill.

And on writing, half of the time I deal with executives who can’t write out of a paper bag. They are incredibly smart and competent, that’s why they come to me when they need to communicate .

To say that a STEM grad can't be creative is patently false. You need to be creative to design experiments. You need to be creative to explore mechanisms and test hypotheses. Just because it's not your view of creativity doesn't mean that it's not creative.

 

[HuskyHawk]

All I know as in Searching for a college for daughter, there really is a paucity of options relative to value .

Going to college in Northeast is very frustrating .

Which is why, increasingly, even local kids choose not to. As for the demographics, initially economists watching it thought the out migration was mostly in the 40-65 age bracket. Turns out it's happening at the same rate among 20-40 year olds. College kids, even ones that do go to school in the northeast, are leaving.

 

[superjohn]

Which is why, increasingly, even local kids choose not to. As for the demographics, initially economists watching it thought the out migration was mostly in the 40-65 age bracket. Turns out it's happening at the same rate among 20-40 year olds. College kids, even ones that do go to school in the northeast, are leaving.

I keep thinking in the future the heat problems in the South will bring people back to the Northeast and Midwest but many people would rather live in 114 degree hell than put up with what the Northeast and Midwest population centers have become.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I keep thinking in the future the heat problems in the South will bring people back to the Northeast and Midwest but many people would rather live in 114 degree hell than put up with what the Northeast and Midwest population centers have become.

My co-workers in Austin were truly miserable this summer. Beyond the usual. But winter is no picnic either. DC to Boston on the coast is pretty temperate. Winters aren't too bad (much worse just a little inland). Those coastal areas have gotten way more expensive despite the outflow. NC, SC, Georgia, Tennessee mountain areas seem to be booming now. Not as hot.

 

[superjohn]

My co-workers in Austin were truly miserable this summer. Beyond the usual. But winter is no picnic either. DC to Boston on the coast is pretty temperate. Winters aren't too bad (much worse just a little inland). Those coastal areas have gotten way more expensive despite the outflow. NC, SC, Georgia, Tennessee mountain areas seem to be booming now. Not as hot.

That's what I'm getting at, it's more and more temperate in the Northeast and Midwest population centers now but they can't get out of their own way and people are heading to places which keep getting hotter. Cost of living, taxes, crime, extremely difficult to be an entrepreneur, cities inviting migrants they can't take care...

I've had friends head to Arizona, Nevada, Texas. They don't like the heat but they found all that other stuff increasingly intolerable in Chicago.

 

[HuskyHawk]

That's what I'm getting at, it's more and more temperate in the Northeast and Midwest population centers now but they can't get out of their own way and people are heading to places which keep getting hotter. Cost of living, taxes, crime, extremely difficult to be an entrepreneur, cities inviting migrants they can't take care...

I've had friends head to Arizona, Nevada, Texas. They don't like the heat but they found all that other stuff increasingly intolerable in Chicago.

It's a tradeoff I'm weighing as well, even living well outside Boston. I know others who already made the call to bail out. Covid drove some of that. No easy answers, but if they don't focus on competing with the sunbelt states they are going to have more problems as the tax base erodes. If I didn't hate the cold I'd go to New Hampshire.

 

[UConnJim]

It's a tradeoff I'm weighing as well, even living well outside Boston. I know others who already made the call to bail out. Covid drove some of that. No easy answers, but if they don't focus on competing with the sunbelt states they are going to have more problems as the tax base erodes. If I didn't hate the cold I'd go to New Hampshire.

Know many people who went south. They say June/July/August are their "winter" months like the Northeast's December/January/February. They do like to visit the Northeast in the summer! They play golf first thing in the morning in the summer months and they can play golf all year round.

Costs/taxes are much lower in the south so I don't know anyone who has come back.