The Big Five Conferences are going to break away

[jbdphi]

The best thing for UConn is if this new super division requires certain levels of financial commitment in order to be considered for membership. If that is the case and UConn (or any other school) meets those levels and is subsequently excluded then those schools could and would likely an antitrust lawsuit.

I'm sure the P5 schools know this and this is why the number 75 was bandied about. Does anyone think the new playoff system was not in response to the Utah AG's lawsuit and subsequent letter from the DOJ to the NCAA?

I think anyone who thinks a Power 5 super division would be safe from antitrust scrutiny is whistling past the graveyard.

But how do you preserve the conference systems and TV contracts while still including certain schools from other conferences with your "independent" criteria? Unless a new conference is formed between the cream of the crop in the MWC and AAC (which was previously attempted and failed), I just don't see how it could possibly work? Even then, I'm not sure you can find 10 teams who would qualify for that group and it certainly wouldn't merit much more TV interest than what we're getting now.

I'm just confused as to the mechanics of it all.

 

[sportsart]

The day college football becomes a paid to play sport there will be more SMU programs than you can count.

Donors will take it as a free for all and if the governing body is less watch dogish than the NCAA God help us all.

The Big 5 Commissioners are like crack addicts with an unlimited supply right now.

But like virtually all addicts they crash and take many others with them.

In 15 years college football will be nothing like it is today. Sad....

 

[UConnJim]

I think people are underestimating the political issues associated with a breakaway. If schools start paying players and continue paying coaches millions, somebody in Washington is going to start talking about taxing athletic departments. It is inevitable.

People have brought up the first split in the 70s as an analogy. When the first split happened in the 70s, the Ivies didn't want to compete and voluntarily moved down. That is not the case today. Many Public schools want to be included.

Think about this. There are 15 states without a P5 school. That is 30 senators. Throw in the liberal states without a public school in the P5: Massachusetts and New York. And, how do you exlude the military academies? Also, you need to look at states that could have large publics excluded that want to be included which includes Florida (UCF, USF, FIU, FAU), Texas ( Houston, UTEP, UTSA), Ohio (Cincinnati), California (SD St., Fresno St.), ... And you have a large number of politicians who don't won't to upset a large number of alums.

Plus, if you start paying 85 men, then you have to start paying 85 women, which means women's sports at every university outside of the P5 will not be competitive for playes with the P5 schools. That impacts a large number of schools in many different sports.

 

[woomba]

Plus, if you start paying 85 men, then you have to start paying 85 women, which means women's sports at every university outside of the P5 will not be competitive for playes with the P5 schools. That impacts a large number of schools in many different sports.

I believe all versions of the stipend rule change has included all scholarship athletes across all sports - it's actually better to be inclusive as possible to cut more off schools off.

 

[The Funster]

But how do you preserve the conference systems and TV contracts while still including certain schools from other conferences with your "independent" criteria? Unless a new conference is formed between the cream of the crop in the MWC and AAC (which was previously attempted and failed), I just don't see how it could possibly work? Even then, I'm not sure you can find 10 teams who would qualify for that group and it certainly wouldn't merit much more TV interest than what we're getting now.

I'm just confused as to the mechanics of it all.

The P5 conferences are going to have to figure that out, aren't they?

What if a P5 school has difficulty or fails to meet the financial requirements? If Arizona State doesn't get enough help from the AZ legislature and it fails to meet the minimum requirements does it get booted from the new super division and the Pac 12?

I think this plan has its share of landmines and these schools better have their ducks in a row.

 

[noeynox]

You may find this interesting with respect to ‘for-profit’ college sports

[ Thanks.

 

[The Funster]

The day college football becomes a paid to play sport there will be more SMU programs than you can count.

Donors will take it as a free for all and if the governing body is less watch dogish than the NCAA God help us all.

The Big 5 Commissioners are like crack addicts with an unlimited supply right now.

But like virtually all addicts they crash and take many others with them.

In 15 years college football will be nothing like it is today. Sad....

And isn't ironic that a school like Grand Canyon University is close to being blackballed from D1 because it is a "for profit" school. Once again a major college conferences hide behind the academics argument (as if a "for profit" school can't be good academically) while they would freely look away from a commuter school's academics if their football was good enough.

 

[John Greene]

I think people are underestimating the political issues associated with a breakaway. If schools start paying players and continue paying coaches millions, somebody in Washington is going to start talking about taxing athletic departments. It is inevitable.

People have brought up the first split in the 70s as an analogy. When the first split happened in the 70s, the Ivies didn't want to compete and voluntarily moved down. That is not the case today. Many Public schools want to be included.

Think about this. There are 15 states without a P5 school. That is 30 senators. Throw in the liberal states without a public school in the P5: Massachusetts and New York. And, how do you exlude the military academies? Also, you need to look at states that could have large publics excluded that want to be included which includes Florida (UCF, USF, FIU, FAU), Texas ( Houston, UTEP, UTSA), Ohio (Cincinnati), California (SD St., Fresno St.), ... And you have a large number of politicians who don't won't to upset a large number of alums.

Plus, if you start paying 85 men, then you have to start paying 85 women, which means women's sports at every university outside of the P5 will not be competitive for playes with the P5 schools. That impacts a large number of schools in many different sports.

Talk about reaching for straws! 30 senators from states with no P5 schools. Lets see that only leaves 70 on the other side. FL politicians care for UF & FSU a few UM, the rest don't register on the meter. TX cares about UT & A&M, OH about OSU. CA cares about CAL & UCLA. Even in MA you probably have more pol's with connections to BU, BC and NU than Umass.

 

[huskymedic]

I had not seen this actual quote yet today... "Relative to the legislative process, we are very much at a point now where we can't get anything that's transformative through the system," Bowlsby said. "I think that's particularly felt by seven or eight conferences and the five major conferences in particular. It is just very difficult to do anything that would benefit our student athletes or our institutions that doesn't get voted down by the larger majority."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130722/big-12-bob-bowlsby-ncaa/#ixzz2ZpZdSaIq

Followed further down by this comment from SI Andy Staples: "At issue is Division IV, or, probably more realistically, a new subdivision within Division I containing the ACC, Big 12, Big Ten, Pac-12, SEC and possibly the American Athletic Conference and Conference USA."

No more a WAG than other talking/writing heads I guess...

 

[whaler11]

Talk about reaching for straws! 30 senators from states with no P5 schools. Lets see that only leaves 70 on the other side. FL politicians care for UF & FSU a few UM, the rest don't register on the meter. TX cares about UT & A&M, OH about OSU. CA cares about CAL & UCLA. Even in MA you probably have more pol's with connections to BU, BC and NU than Umass.

Here is your senator count on the Non P5 side:

Connecticut 2
Hawaii 2
Idaho 2

 

[whaler11]

Why would Staples mention CUSA and not Mountain West?

 

[huskymedic]

Why would Staples mention CUSA and not Mountain West?

Curious as well and he clearly can't mean ALL the schools in the aforementioned conferences...

 

[John Greene]

Here is your senator count on the Non P5 side:

Connecticut 2
Hawaii 2
Idaho 2

Let's be fair, you forgot the three northern NE states & RI. They may be important swing votes. Also even if they speak like they are Canadian you can't kick the Dakotas out of the Union. At least not yet.

 

[whaler11]

Let's be fair, you forgot the three northern NE states & RI. They may be important swing votes. Also even if they speak like they are Canadian you can't kick the Dakotas out of the Union. At least not yet.

Certainly it's a pressing issue in Rhode Island, New Hampshire and South Dakota. They care deeply about getting UConn and Boise State into the highest level of college football. New Mexico and their deep football tradition can't
be ignored either.

 

[UConnJim]

Talk about reaching for straws! 30 senators from states with no P5 schools. Lets see that only leaves 70 on the other side. FL politicians care for UF & FSU a few UM, the rest don't register on the meter. TX cares about UT & A&M, OH about OSU. CA cares about CAL & UCLA. Even in MA you probably have more pol's with connections to BU, BC and NU than Umass.

Living in Massachusetts, I can guarantee you that Sens. Warren and Markey don't care about BC and I'm sure the same can be said about Syracuse in NY. Oh, by the way, the Senate majority leader is from Nevada, a state with no P5 schools.

And, I am on the boards of 2 non-profits and there are pretty strict rules surrounding pay for non-profits. We can't pay our CEOs anywhere near what college coaches make.

As for Florida, undergrads at USF + UCF > UF + FSU, 87.2k to 64.6k. Don't forget, FIU and FAU have 59.8k undergrads. So, yes, politicians in Florida will care.

 

[whaler11]

I'm a bit late to this thread but if the P5 went in this direction there is some risk that some people walk away from college sports. For some reason there is a population that enjoys the facade of the student-athlete.

 

[whaler11]

Living in Massachusetts, I can guarantee you that Sens. Warren and Markey don't care about BC and I'm sure the same can be said about Syracuse in NY. Oh, by the way, the Senate majority leader is from Nevada, a state with no P5 schools.

And, I am on the boards of 2 non-profits and there are pretty strict rules surrounding pay for non-profits. We can't pay our CEOs anywhere near what college coaches make.

As for Florida, undergrads at USF + UCF > UF + FSU, 87.2k to 64.6k. Don't forget, FIU and FAU have 59.8k undergrads. So, yes, politicians in Florida will care.

So the students at UCF, USF, FIU and FAU don't care about their football programs but US Senators will. Okey dokey.

It's like arguing that CCSU students in general care more about Central sports than UConn.

 

[The Viking]

The mods need to change FranktheTank's image to the Grim Reaper.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Talk about reaching for straws! 30 senators from states with no P5 schools. Lets see that only leaves 70 on the other side. FL politicians care for UF & FSU a few UM, the rest don't register on the meter. TX cares about UT & A&M, OH about OSU. CA cares about CAL & UCLA. Even in MA you probably have more pol's with connections to BU, BC and NU than Umass.

Really the state of Ohio would have one representative. Mich two
Indiana possibly 3. Tiny States like Kansas and Oklahoma 2.
The bulk of MAC teams are in the state of Ohio.
Do you think the people of Ohio will be happy with that?
30 senators acting in unison can effectively shut down the US.
This is potentially a political firestorm.
Nothing upspets Americans more than elitism.
Reprensentatives from districts with FSB schools who are excluded won't. be happy campers either.


Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[John Greene]

Living in Massachusetts, I can guarantee you that Sens. Warren and Markey don't care about BC and I'm sure the same can be said about Syracuse in NY. Oh, by the way, the Senate majority leader is from Nevada, a state with no P5 schools.

And, I am on the boards of 2 non-profits and there are pretty strict rules surrounding pay for non-profits. We can't pay our CEOs anywhere near what college coaches make.

As for Florida, undergrads at USF + UCF > UF + FSU, 87.2k to 64.6k. Don't forget, FIU and FAU have 59.8k undergrads. So, yes, politicians in Florida will care.

I go back to my earlier comment that some are confusing "non-profit" with "tax exempt". Most major universities, hospitals, churches, etc. do in fact have income that exceeds expenses. They just don't call it a profit. They call it a surplus and as long as they don't fall into the trap of having too much interest in areas not related to their main purpose they are fine. Heck, one could argue that Harvard is just a hedge fund with a school attached.

I don't know if Warren cares about BC or not, nor do I care. As far as Markey is concerned didn't he attend BC for either undergrad or law school? Maybe his experience there was so bad he hates the school? What I said was that more MA pol's had connections to BU, BC and NU than Umass. If they cared about Umass it would not be in the condition it finds itself in at this point in time.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Really the state of Ohio would have one representative. Mich two
Indiana possibly 3 North Carolina 4 .Tiny States like Kansas and Oklahoma 2.
The bulk of MAC teams are in the state of Ohio.
Do you think the people of Ohio will be happy with that?
30 senators acting in unison can effectively shut down the US.
This is potentially a political firestorm.
Nothing upspets Americans more than elitism.
Reprensentatives from districts with FSB schools who are excluded won't. be happy campers either. Like almost the entire state of NY.


Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[John Greene]

Really the state of Ohio would have one representative. Mich two
Indiana possibly 3. Tiny States like Kansas and Oklahoma 2.
The bulk of MAC teams are in the state of Ohio.
Do you think the people of Ohio will be happy with that?
30 senators acting in unison can effectively shut down the US.
This is potentially a political firestorm.
Nothing upspets Americans more than elitism.
Reprensentatives from districts with FSB schools who are excluded won't. be happy campers either.

This is so wrong I don't know where to start.

30 Senators can't do squat, not even have a filibuster if the 70 disagree. Last time I looked it takes 60 for cloture.

Americans get upset with elitism? Wow since when? All of us here on the BY sure have un-American attitudes bragging about UConn's climb to elite status among public universities.

As far as your rep numbers, I have no idea what you are talking about. OH has 2 senators and a bunch of reps. I bet a lot more care about OSU than all of the other schools combined.


Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[metsfan2323]

No one is going to get "forced down". The most likely scenario is that a new division will be created and the conferences that have all of its members qualify will be "brought up" to Super FBS (just as the Division I-A and I-AA split occurred).

This

and you can bet The American and the MWC will pay their players the stipend in order to compete at the highest level. The cost of the stipend will be paid for by dropping a decent percentage of the non revenue producing sports. Baseball/softball and soccer teams will get the ax long before the schools decide to blow-up football and basketball.

Also it seems to me that ESPN would be in favor of keeping The American in the game as they stand to make a tidy profit by airing our games given the fact that they are paying us with peanuts, heck they would probably give us a little extra money for the stipend rather then watch us die.

Rumors of our demise are greatly exaggerated. Enjoy the season and ignore this nonsense.

 

[Adios]

Also it seems to me that ESPN would be in favor of keeping The American in the game as they stand to make a tidy profit by airing our games given the fact that they are paying us with peanuts, heck they would probably give us a little extra money for the stipend rather then watch us die.

Rumors of our demise are greatly exaggerated.

I still can't believe how puny the contract is. But the idea you brought up about ESPN standing to make a decent profit on it seems to say all that needs to be said. I look forward to the day we land in a conference as a permanent home. Our options are as good as they can get.

Have to wonder what UMass is thinking. Maybe we should have brought them along instead of Tulsa. But move the home games back to Amherst.

Should this thread be titled, "The Big Seven or Eight Conferences are going to break away"? I know some want to think I am nuts for this kind of stuff, but I am still a believer of ODU and UTSA. Solid markets.

 

[Pudge]

Whaler spins arguments to fit his "facts".

I count 17 states outside the Cartel. That's 34 senators. And YES ... You better believe that the Florida senators will fight for UCF & USF. And the MAC schools matter ... So you have 2 Ohio Senators looking out. At a certain point, Public Universities simply cannot be cut out. The idea that the Kansas institutions deserve $50m of TV CFB money ... North Dakota has absolutely no access will grate on two. And on & on.

Not a simple deal.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Whaler spins arguments to fit his "facts".

I count 17 states outside the Cartel. That's 34 senators. And YES ... You better believe that the Florida senators will fight for UCF & USF. And the MAC schools matter ... So you have 2 Ohio Senators looking out. At a certain point, Public Universities simply cannot be cut out. The idea that the Kansas institutions deserve $50m of TV CFB money ... North Dakota has absolutely no access will grate on two. And on & on.

Not a simple deal.

Yeah, it actually is pretty simple. The teams in the MAC aren't really affected whatsoever whether or not the P5 break off or not. You really think a senator in Ohio is going to take a stance that goes against what is best for Ohio State?

North Dakota? Do they even have a football team?

The only states where this would be fully supported, as Whaler pointed out, would be CT, Idaho and Hawaii. Maybe you could convince me Mass, Nevada or New Mexico consider getting involved, but I just don't see where there would be overwhelming support in any instance.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

First of all: FranktheTank has been concern trolling this board ever since he started posting here. Other than UConn is going to get screwed, he has not been right on anything in conference realignment, and I am pretty sure he had us taking the last ACC slot until the very end. He comes over here and pees in our cherrios every couple of days, and half this board kisses his ass.

The problems with a clean break:

1) A lot of the D1 schools are not going to go. Vanderbilt and Northwestern have played along by default. They don't try to be big time athletically, not because they can't afford it, but because it is not important to them. They are top universities with huge endowments, and I think they will walk away from major college athletics before they will have pro teams attached to their universities. They compete with the Ivy and the UAA for students, and schools from those leagues remind top students that Harvard and Dartmouth and U Chicago and Carnegie Mellon turned down big time athletics to focus on academics. Neither Vanderbilt or Wake or Duke or Northwestern is going to draw an extra fan if the Big 5 break off, but they will have to compete with schools that will have no rules whatsoever. I don't think they are going to do it, and I think even Notre Dame has reservations about where FSU, Alabama and Texas are taking college athletics.

2) Major sports are an anti-trust violation simply by existing, which is why they lose in court most of the time. The BCS was created as a result of court cases, and the P5 know they will get crushed if they try to simply exclude other schools. This is why the P5 throw more money at the non-BCS schools every time those schools threaten to sue.

3) A split would not work in hoops. The sport is too different in too many ways, and too many top programs are on the outside already. Marquette draws better than all but 2 SEC schools.

4) The tax exempt status is finished. You guys keep counting Senators, as if the existence of a BCS school in their state is all that matters. First of all, there are straightforward IRS rules about this, and when you have a large payroll, employees making 7 figures, and a P&L, it is hard to argue you are a non-profit. The 3 tests for UBTI are:

1. It is a trade or business,
2. It is regularly carried on, and
3. It is not substantially related to furthering the exempt purpose of the organization

How does college football measure up? You think in a world where the federal government is running a trillion dollar deficit that the IRS is not already looking at this? There simply wasn't enough money in it before, but now that there are quite a few programs with over $50 million of revenue, the IRS is paying attention. The Dallas Cowboys have more fans than any college team, and their fans have not marched on Washington because the Cowboys have to pay taxes.​

 

[Fishy]

The senate is not going to come riding in as a white knight to save us - it's just not happening. We have had our skulls caved in during the shenanigans thus far and guess what? The senate, our senators, our governor and anyone else you might think would care expended no energy on UConn's behalf.

Forget about North Dakota - the state Kansas is already getting $50M a year in college sports' cash and the state of Connecticut is getting about $1.8M.

Where's your senate, boys?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The senate is not going to come riding in as a white knight to save us - it's just not happening. We have had our skulls caved in during the shenanigans thus far and guess what? The senate, our senators, our governor and anyone else you might think would care expended no energy on UConn's behalf.

Forget about North Dakota - the state Kansas is already getting $50M a year in college sports' cash and the state of Connecticut is getting about $1.8M.

Where's your senate, boys?

Who said anything about saving us? I think we are finished. I think college athletics is not too far behind.

I don't know where it is going to end up. I think the anti-trust risk is the issue that the P5 focuses on the most, and they are probably staking out a negotiating position so they don't get completely held up by the non-BCS.

I stand by my post, that the tax-exampt status is hanging by a thread, and the Senate will not play a role in it changing. I also think a lot of these colleges are simply not going to go along with Alabama and Texas and FSU to become a minor league. I don't see a Michigan or Iowa doing it, much less Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Duke.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

The senate is not going to come riding in as a white knight to save us - it's just not happening. We have had our skulls caved in during the shenanigans thus far and guess what? The senate, our senators, our governor and anyone else you might think would care expended no energy on UConn's behalf.

Forget about North Dakota - the state Kansas is already getting $50M a year in college sports' cash and the state of Connecticut is getting about $1.8M.
The state of Ohio,one of the best football areas in the country will get 25 million. Kansas with 2mm people and a terrible football tradition gets double. That certainly should be brought up to Ohio residents.
Currently there is an illusion from the have nots that they can advance,with the break away all hope is dashed. The removal of hope is a game changer.
In a divided Senate 5 senators acting together could screw things up .

Where's your senate, boys?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2