The Best Group of Guards Ever?

[eebmg]

I never cease to be amazed at folks obsession with player ratings from 4 years ago. Who cares that CW was the #1 player in high school evaluations. It says nothing about her current playing status. And I don’t think anyone would say she’s had the top college career of that 2018 class.

Similarly sure EW was highly ranked but injuries have meant she’s not exactly the same player.

paiges #1 ranking is also irrelevant. We know she’s a great player not because she was #1; winning POY last year does that.

In the present context, it is relevant since the pressure CW feels to excel which was the issue being addressed is certainly magnified.

 

[baggerbob]

Too much talk about offense. The best teams win with defense and rebounding. Nika is quick and tough, Williams has really developed into a good defender, but after that there is a lot of flash but not enough consistency. Jefferson, Hartley and Faris were quick and tough. The backline must help and rebound; think Stewart and Tuck. That 2016 undefeated team could have Stewart, Jefferson, Tuck, Nurse and Gabby on the court at the same time. They gave up just 51 points per during the tourney. Certainly they are not the only UConn team that has played that kind of shutdown defense. It was great fun to watch those UConn teams frustrate teams with a defensive effort that they obviously took great pride in. That Arizona team last year really shut down UConn, and they did the same to a really good Stanford team, though couldn't score enough. With the talented teams that are out there, I don't see UConn just going out and out-scoring them all. If they don't get much better at they defensive end I don't see them winning it all.

That Tournament game against Mississippi State might have been the greatest defensive team effort in tournament history. Stewie had 5 blocks 3 in one possession.

 

[Vowelguy]

OK, but my premise that UConn’s group of guards may be the deepest and most talented “in college” still stands. If you have another group that you think is better, tell me who they are and why.

2000

Possibly 2009

 

[oldude]

2000

Possibly 2009

Shea, Sveta & Sue and Tiffany, Renee & Kalana were excellent guard trios. I would make the case that this year’s team is certainly deeper at the guard spot, and since the season hasn’t started yet, I guess we’ll have to wait awhile to see if they’re better.

 

[BBallF]

I think you are talking about currently and I don't think there is any question that they are the best "group" of guards in the country right now. I agree that if the opposing team is playing 2 guards and they play us even or close to even it makes little difference. I also agree that you will see 4 guards starting at first for UCONN . Paige, Nika, Evina and CW with ONO in the pivot. The problem is defense because you are giving up size at the 3 and 4 position with that line up. However, this will be a different team on defense I predict.

I don't see them getting winded, or having to play when tired or worn down in a physical game because of the power and depth underneath with Edwrds and Dorka and because of at least one X factor defender there in Aubrey. You have Azzi as well, who I think is a very good on ball defender. Great teams play great defense and championship teams always do.

They had to worry about scoring at times last year but less this year. If ONO is having a FF type game, you have Dorka or Edwards. If Paige is off, you have Azzi. If CW is off, let CD III or Saylor shoot the 3s. If Evina is off, someone won't be and she will get the ball to them. Their mantra has to be defense because they can still have an off night on offense and suddenly an Arizona type team appears and you are done.

The only proven way to avoid that is with defense. I think Geno is going to emphasize that and we are all going to be surprised. It's the logical type of game a deep, athletic team like ours can always excel at and it is about will, desire, and toughness, qualities that were not apparent in our last game last year.

 

[The CDR-Ret]

UConn WBB has a long history of outstanding backcourts. But I cannot recall a team with a deeper and more talented group of guards than the current one. UConn has 4 of the last 5 guards rated tops in their HS class. The only exception is Jordan Horston at TN. Add in Nika, one of the toughest and most tenacious players on the team, and UConn legitimately goes 5 deep this season at guard. Pending how Caroline & Saylor develop, that number could grow.

UConn’s guards have size, they can all play defense, and they can all knock down 3’s. At least 4 can run the offense (Paige, Evina, Nika & Azzi). There are several definitions of what a “combo guard” is. A simple definition might be that a combo guard is a pg that doesn’t have to play pg, because they have the luxury of playing with another pg. So, UConn has 4 combo guards.

Paige, Evina, Christyn & Azzi can all break down their defender off the dribble and hunt their own shot, pulling up for a midrange jumper or taking the ball all the way to the basket. The fact that UConn has so many players who can shoot it, pass it or attack the basket puts tremendous pressure on opposing defenses.

I know that many BY’ers justifiably believe that UConn’s starting lineup will include 2 of the following 3 players: Liv, Aaliyah or Dorka. Whether or not that’s the case remains to be seen. UConn went with a 4-guard lineup for much of this past season, and Geno will likely try out a 4-guard lineup in some fashion this coming season to spread the floor, move the ball and force opposing teams to make difficult choices on who to guard and who to leave open.

When the ball is moving and the shots are falling, UConn will put up a lot of points. Can any team in the country outscore the Huskies? MD? Stanford? We’ll see. One thing is for sure. Opposing coaches will face a significant challenge trying to figure out how to defend a UConn team with Paige, Christyn, Evina, Nika and Azzi, not to mention Liv, Aaliyah, Dorka, Aubrey, Mir, Piath, Sailor, Caroline & Amari.

I see there will be at least three mismatches on the court all the time: Best guard, 2nd best guard, 3rd best guard, and most likely the second best "big" - regardless of who UCONN has on the court.

Geno will be able to create other mismatches as he brings in fresh players.... more "bigs" or more guards will be interesting of their effects.

 

[huskiemaniac]

With the caveat that it may be a difference of definition, I don't agree that the entire group of PB, , CW, and EW can break their defenders down off the dribble. While PB and CW do have that ability (CW more than PB, imo) to a certain extent, I don't consider either one an ankle-breaker. Obviously, hasn't played a minute of college ball yet, but there was little evidence of this in the FIBA games this summer. EW just isn't that type of guard, perhaps due to the knee.

 

[oldude]

I see there will be at least three mismatches on the court all the time: Best guard, 2nd best guard, 3rd best guard, and most likely the second best "big" - regardless of who UCONN has on the court.

Geno will be able to create other mismatches as he brings in fresh players.... more "bigs" or more guards will be interesting of their effects.

Exactly. There’s possibly 3 teams in the country that can play the “matchup game” with UConn: Stanford, SC & MD. SC comes up a little short shooting the ball and MD doesn’t quite have the size.

That leaves Stanford. The similarities between the two teams in terms of depth and talent are remarkable. If it comes down to the Huskies and the Cardinal, it’s going to be a hell of a battle.

 

[Skeets]

Great guard duos, but if you are talking about life time achievement how in the world is any duo going to surpass Sue and the GOAT? (If limited to WCCB I also like Svet and Shea, shame about the injuries, but they were fun to watch...)

 

[CocoHusky]

I wouldn’t have expected Geno to go with a 4 guard lineup last year against SC. He surprised the hell out of me, but it worked.

I know others may feel differently, but here’s the way I look at it. If UConn has a starting lineup of Paige, Christyn, Evina and Liv +1. Is the team better off with Aaliyah, Dorka or Azzi as the +1?

You can switch Liv & Dorka if you wish, but imo Azzi will ultimately force Geno to put her in the starting lineup in the same way that Nika did last season.

Nika "forced" Geno to put her in the starting lineup last year? Geno Auriemma? Did Nika use a gun?

 

[Amashutcha]

With the caveat that it may be a difference of definition, I don't agree that the entire group of PB, , CW, and EW can break their defenders down off the dribble. While PB and CW do have that ability (CW more than PB, imo) to a certain extent, I don't consider either one an ankle-breaker. Obviously, hasn't played a minute of college ball yet, but there was little evidence of this in the FIBA games this summer. EW just isn't that type of guard, perhaps due to the knee.

I've seen this mentioned a handful of times that PB and CW can't break down their defenders off the dribble. I've rewatched the past season over and over and I'm pretty certain I've seen them blow by their defenders. I don't think they have to be ankle-breakers to be effective. The simple quick first step to blow by and suck in the help defense is enough to get the defense moving and find the open person and they've done that many times, even Nika.

 

[oldude]

Nika "forced" Geno to put her in the starting lineup last year? Geno Auriemma? Did Nika use a gun?

Nope. She worked incredibly hard in practice, improved her play over the course of several games and earned the spot. Any other questions?

 

[CocoHusky]

In the present context, it is relevant since the pressure CW feels to excel which was the issue being addressed is certainly magnified.

That's a stretch. CW was a Freshman Day 1 starter for UCONN and averaged 19 PPG in her first NCAA tournament. All that was after predicting that "people were going to feel UCONN" before she ever suited up for a game and dropping bombs on ND's head in South Bend. Hard to believe that Senior CW is feeling more pressure than freshman CW.

 

[huskiemaniac]

I've seen this mentioned a handful of times that PB and CW can't break down their defenders off the dribble. I've rewatched the past season over and over and I'm pretty certain I've seen them blow by their defenders. I don't think they have to be ankle-breakers to be effective. The simple quick first step to blow by and suck in the help defense is enough to get the defense moving and find the open person and they've done that many times, even Nika.

You haven't seen it mentioned by me so why use my post as a reference?

 

[CocoHusky]

With the caveat that it may be a difference of definition, I don't agree that the entire group of PB, , CW, and EW can break their defenders down off the dribble. While PB and CW do have that ability (CW more than PB, imo) to a certain extent, I don't consider either one an ankle-breaker. Obviously, hasn't played a minute of college ball yet, but there was little evidence of this in the FIBA games this summer. EW just isn't that type of guard, perhaps due to the knee.

I've seen this mentioned a handful of times that PB and CW can't break down their defenders off the dribble. I've rewatched the past season over and over and I'm pretty certain I've seen them blow by their defenders. I don't think they have to be ankle-breakers to be effective. The simple quick first step to blow by and suck in the help defense is enough to get the defense moving and find the open person and they've done that many times, even Nika.

All the UCONN guards have the ability the break down a defender but keep in mind that from the very first practice until they graduate and are playing on the olympic team this is something Geno actively tries to coach out of his players. The UCONN offense minimizes the dribble and prefers to advance the ball by passing. There are entire no dribble drills in just about every UCONN practice. and shoot around.

 

[oldhusky]

I wouldn’t have expected Geno to go with a 4 guard lineup last year against SC. He surprised the hell out of me, but it worked.

I know others may feel differently, but here’s the way I look at it. If UConn has a starting lineup of Paige, Christyn, Evina and Liv +1. Is the team better off with Aaliyah, Dorka or Azzi as the +1?

You can switch Liv & Dorka if you wish, but imo Azzi will ultimately force Geno to put her in the starting lineup in the same way that Nika did last season.

This is one of the great ongoing Boneyard debates. Like you I think Azzi might force herself into the starting lineup, and I hope she does, but I don't think th at means a 4 guard lineup. Whoever plays the 4 in a four guard lineup, be it Evina (most likely), Christyn or Azzi, they would be less effective there than at a more natural position.

Aaliyah IMO is already as good as Christyn or Evina, although I understand not just some but most on the Boneyard would probably disagree with that. It is also her natural position. Aubrey is a very good backup to her, and now with Dorka we have a two headed monster at C. For that matter we have third stringers that almost any team would love to have as their principle backups in Amari a very highly ranked big who will probably have trouble getting off the bench, and Mir who produced pretty well in limited minutes that despite that could be even more limited this year. Who knows Piath might turn into a major asset too.

My main point is we have bigs too, and no burning need to use a guard at the 4. I agree with the talent level of the guards mentioned but think those five players need to get their minutes at 1-3, not the 4. Time will tell.

 

[Crossover]

You haven't seen it mentioned by me so why use my post as a reference?

Umm, you just said that very thing in this thread, post 57.

 

[eebmg]

That's a stretch. CW was a Freshman Day 1 starter for UCONN and averaged 19 PPG in her first NCAA tournament. All that was after predicting that "people were going to feel UCONN" before she ever suited up for a game and dropping bombs on ND's head in South Bend. Hard to believe that Senior CW is feeling more pressure than freshman CW.

Really? As time runs down, a HS #1 at UConn not making any All-American team (not to mention 1st team All American) or for team goals, a NC has to feel alot of pressure.

Freshman do not feel that pressure since they know they are not expected to do that much as a freshman and in addition, she showed major signs of future potential with the ND game etc.

Hopefully, she puts it all together in her final year. It sounds like her mind is focused

 

[huskiemaniac]

Umm, you just said that very thing in this thread, post 57.

No, I didn't.

 

[CocoHusky]

Nope. She worked incredibly hard in practice, improved her play over the course of several games and earned the spot. Any other questions?

Just a few.
The injury to Anna didn't have anything to do with it?
The failure of Aubrey to retain a starting position after Aubrey was put in the starting lineup to replace Anna didn't have anything to do with it?
The failure of Aaliyah to retain a starting position after she was placed in the starting lineup to replace Aubrey didn't have anything to do with it?
Did Geno have any other healthy scholarship guards available to him after Anna was injured that were not already starters?
Why was Nika a healthy DNP for the TN game?
Why do you think Geno waited until the start of conference play to start Nika against one of the weakest teams on UCONN schedule?
What happened on the last possession of the UCONN season?

 

[Plebe]

In the present context, it is relevant since the pressure CW feels to excel which was the issue being addressed is certainly magnified.

Not sure I'm following the train of thought here.

If the thing keeping CW's high school ranking relevant is the pressure she's felt to live up to it -- and this pressure is deemed to have negatively impacted her performance -- that this would be all the more reason NOT to cite her HS ranking as evidence of how strong this backcourt is. Which, in the end, would dovetail with @Vowelguy 's point.

 

[eebmg]

Not sure I'm following the train of thought here.

If the thing keeping CW's high school ranking relevant is the pressure she's felt to live up to it -- and this pressure is deemed to have negatively impacted her performance -- that this would be all the more reason NOT to cite her HS ranking as evidence of how strong this backcourt is. Which, in the end, would dovetail with @Vowelguy 's point.

Okay. In re-reading @Vowelguy , I see his point is that no one should inflate the players performance in college and readiness for WNBA just because they were a former #1 in HS.

I was addressing the issue of evaluating how well a player developed and lived up to their potential through college

 

[D J B]

By play defense? Do you mean they're good or elite defensively? Because Paige has yet to shown me that even her hc has said she needs to improve defensively. Her defense was abysmal in that Arizona game, she makes no effort aside swiping to take the ball,at a defender.

You can make this type of comment on YouTube including all the bad grammar, but it isn't going to work here at the BY. When you say "Paige has yet to shown (sic) me that even her hc has said she needs to improve defensively. Her defense was abysmal in that Arizona game, she makes no effort aside swiping (sic) to take the ball,at (sic) a defender" it just shows you have no idea what you are talking about. That's a beat up clunker you aren't going to sell here.

 

[maccca3232]

Table using Efficiency stats.

I have included both Total (green) and Average (orange) due to lesser number of games played last season.

Last season Paige & Christyn (36.5) are second behind only Sue & Dee in 2001-02 (37.4).

Last season was the best Top 3 & Top 4 and we return all plus add Azzi.

 

[eebmg]

Table using Efficiency stats.

I have included both Total (green) and Average (orange) due to lesser number of games played last season.

Last season Paige & Christyn (36.5) are second behind only Sue & Dee in 2001-02 (37.4).

Last season was the best Top 3 & Top 4 and we return all plus add Azzi.

View attachment 69852

What is the meaning of Top 3, Top 4 and why are they higher and in particular much higher in 2021 ???

My guess was Top 2 was top 2 guard stats averaged (Paige / CW) , Top 3 adds Evina and Top 4 adds Nika? But that does not make sense regarding the numbers?