Tennessee topics (merged threads)

[Beemer]

Huskies Rule nailed it IMHO.

I've seen this before with Tennessee- great individual players but little team chemistry. Warlick simply isn't strong enough a personality to mold these young women into an effective team.

 

[carpe diem]

There has been so much discussion on the Boneyard lately about the underachieving Lady Vols and their head coach Holly Warlick that it got me to thinking: what would happen if Geno was the new head coach at Tennessee at the beginning of the 2015-2016 season.

Imagine that it's the first day of practice. All of the players are lined up in the gym. In walks Geno in a bright orange sweater and a basketball under one arm. CD is by his side. The players know all about Coach Auriemma. You can hear a pin drop. He is officially their new head coach.

He looks them over. He is familiar with most of them. He even recruited some of them. He knows their strengths and weaknesses. Some are probably not the kind of players he would have wanted at UCONN but this is the hand that he's been dealt.

So my question is this: could Geno Auriemma turn this particular group of players into a winning team. Where would he begin? Could they learn to be the defensive players that he would demand? Could he possibly get them to buy into the team first concept? How would he handle their team leader Diamond DeShields? Or would he just throw up his hands and whisper to CD "I just can't win with this group"? I'm curious to know what my fellow Boneyarders think about this far fetched scenario. Perhaps the answer will reveal more about Holly Warlick than it will about Geno Auriemma.

There is no crystal ball: no one really knows how a recruit will turn out, but a lot of good guessing does occur at UCONN. Evidenced by those who leave the UCONN program after a semester or a year to play elsewhere is evidence that both recruits and UCONN staff sometimes make the wrong guess. That is by way of saying that so much depends upon the reaction of recruits to the environment of UCONN basketball. As most UCONN players have said and demonstrated, even knowing what to expect does not prevent surprise and even resistance initially to the regimen. So, the question of how well Geno would do with this bunch of Tennessee players, I think basically comes down to how much of an attitude and buy in change the individual players would be able to make. My guess is this particular group would not take well to Geno's methods. Being the great coach he is, and given how poorly they are doing, one would expect some improvement if enough players remained on the team

 

[Topdawg]

You way over value DD vs to the disruption and problems she creates in the team.

I could be overvaluing her in the present circumstances. She does cause disruption. Perhaps a different coach could have curtailed her negatives and accentuated her positives. After all, Geno is quoted as saying she could have had impact like Maya, and she was recruited by UCONN.

 

[msf22b]

"Kids" will be kids, and when not taught to play otherwise, when they are allowed to play undisciplined playground ball, the tendency is to do just that.

Great points Rule
One observation:

In the playgrounds I played in: PS 94 Bronx, JHS 80 Reservoir Oval, Bronx, until about '53
and then at the previously discussed Jewel Avenue and Queens College grounds,

The game, as then practiced (to the best of my recollection) was quite different from what you see today.
With all of it played under the basket, crisp passing, picks, finding the open man, slick double and triple options when help was attempted...in short, many of the techniques that Geno utilizes, were common place and valued.

The guard play of the Celtics and to a lesser extent the Royals was loved and emulated. The Lakers with Vern Mikkelsen and George Mikan were the uncouth brutes (to us).

 

[Zorro]

And there never was a crash like the Tennessee Thud.

 

[trb123]

Kib

Should the title of the thread read "If Geno were the coach at Tennessee"?

Just asking.

 

[Dougie]

Kib

Should the title of the thread read "If Geno were the coach at Tennessee"?

Just asking.

I actually thought about that when writing the thread. A Google search seemed to indicate that either was acceptable in this usage but perhaps someone else wants to weigh in on this.

 

[Ron and Vida]

I am stretching a bit.

Per Wikipedia definition (my first use of per) a Kabuki Drama is a full-length play occupying five acts. The first corresponds to jo, an auspicious and slow opening which introduces the audience to the characters and the plot. The next three acts correspond to ha, speeding events up, culminating almost always in a great moment of drama or tragedy in the third act (Lady Vols led by 12 or so) and possibly a battle in the second and/or fourth acts (MSU battled back to tie the game). The final act, corresponding to kyu, is almost always short, providing a quick and satisfying conclusion (Not sure about the quickness. The conclusion was very satisfying indeed).

Love it. Kabuki in the land of the setting sun.....

 

[Orangutan]

Tennessee also has structural issues. There was a good post about it at rockytoptalk.com though I don't remember exactly which post it was in. To paraphrase - DeShields is not now and was not at UNC a competent 3-point shooter. She would thrive in a system that spreads the floor and allows her to attack the basket, either one-on-one or off of pick & rolls. Russell is most effective posting up on the low block but that clogs up the lane so Diamond can't attack it effectively.

So Russell and DeShields are in direct conflict. If you spread it out and play towards Diamond's strengths, Russell is wasted. If you put Russell to work on the low block, Diamond is left to lay bricks on the outside. There's no easy solution to this. Either you bench one and try to keep them off the court at the same time or maybe you go small and put DeShields at 4. But that means benching Graves.

It doesn't appear that DeShields, Russell, and Graves fit together effectively. That's one issue with Tennessee. They have a lot of "talent" yes, but much of it is redundant.

Of course, Tennessee actually played pretty well with Diamond on the bench last night so maybe they stumbled upon a solution. I just don't think Holly has the courage to permanently remove Diamond from the starting lineup. And I don't think Diamond would take kindly to it either.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Yet she was OK to play the last what - 15 or 20 minutes of the game? I don't get it.
The announcers asked her how her ankle was before the game and she said "Good enough". Who knows what's going on there.

According to one report, she played 30 minutes. Holly pregame said she was not starting because she did not practice the day before but would come in and come in she did to lamentable effect, but I saw no difficulties from the ankle.

 

[Huskies Rule]

Great points Rule
One observation:

In the playgrounds I played in: PS 94 Bronx, JHS 80 Reservoir Oval, Bronx, until about '53
and then at the previously discussed Jewel Avenue and Queens College grounds,

The game, as then practiced (to the best of my recollection) was quite different from what you see today.
With all of it played under the basket, crisp passing, picks, finding the open man, slick double and triple options when help was attempted...in short, many of the techniques that Geno utilizes were common place and valued...

WOW! I must have lived in a bizzaro-world universe of opposites, msf. I pretty much lived on the playgrounds at Weequahic Park and Chancellor Avenue in Newark and Springdale Avenue in East Orange (NJ). They were all 35-45 minute bike rides from home, in rough areas, but that hardly mattered. You went there to compete with the best players, with the best reps in the neighborhood. In winter, I shoveled the courts, often by my nutty self. When there was a ton of snow, we'd have to play half-court because I didn't have the energy to shovel the whole damn thing and then run for 3 or 4 hours. The rain was a piece-of-cake to sweep off.

But that 'team' play you mention didn't happen very often here. No 3-point line, so, yes, lots of inside play. But nobody wanted to sit because there were always 20-30 guys waiting to play. You lose, you sit. And with one main court (the one that had the best, least bumpy surface and had those clinking metal nets on the basket, though usually there were no 'nets' at all), sitting and watching sucked, so the play was often brutally physical. If you called soft fouls you were a real , got little respect and were rarely picked to be on teams. Everyone wanted to stay-and-play.

Those games were anything but pretty. We learned a lot about toughness and playing through contact. But all that passing, picking and triple options you spoke of- not so much.
But, man oh man, what good memories.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Warlick simply isn't strong enough a personality to mold these young women into an effective team.

I think it's worse than that. Mickie Demoss was Pat's tactician for Pat's last 2 years and had been for 14 years before going away to fail elsewhere as a head coach. DeMoss ran the in game huddles for those last 2 years. Warlick had always been the facilitator, check list Assistant. Tactician Not! I don't mean this in a mean way, just accurate: she's missing at least 2 sticks from a 5 stick pack of gum. How else to explain them being defenseless (er- offense less) against a zone. How else to explain pulling kids with the hot hand (a relative term with UT) and putting in poor shooters, killing game momentum. How else is 6' 6" Russel such a weak push-over in the post?

I have long suspected that Holly was pushed for the job by Pat Summit because she felt she could still effectively run the program while Emeritus and impaired.

 

[BigBird]

It really makes a UCONN fan appreciate Geno & his staff even more when you watch other teams do the stupidest things late in games to blow the lead or fail to win a winnable game!

Exactly. While TV talking heads keep up with their "UConn gets all the best players" stuff, they fail to notice the lack of fundamental skills, court awareness, team orientation, motivation, energy, and fitness exhibited by teams that are not called UConn. Maybe that's why the loss last year at Stanford was so jarring. It wasn't just the loss, it was how that loss happened. Don't stop the ball on drives. Don't defend the three. That gets you beat. It was so un-UConn.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Exactly. While TV talking heads keep up with their "UConn gets all the best players" stuff, they fail to notice the lack of fundamental skills, court awareness, team orientation, motivation, energy, and fitness exhibited by teams that are not called UConn. Maybe that's why the loss last year at Stanford was so jarring. It wasn't just the loss, it was how that loss happened. Don't stop the ball on drives. Don't defend the three. That gets you beat. It was so un-UConn.

The smart WNBA GMs pick UConn players. They are good to great players--not necessarily the absolute best--and they are both well coached and hard-working. In short, they are the most WNBA-ready.

 

[Papa33]

UConn is the quintessential example of "TEAM;" Tennessee is NOT. And therein lies all the difference in the world. So why is one a successful team and the other is not?

1. Winning is about more than just talent. So how do you explain why Tennessee plays like they do, with the results they achieve, and in what ways is UConn so very different?

2. UConn players have 100% bought into the concept of team-first, team only. They are disciplined and unselfish- always. Geno unhesitatingly sits any kid (yes, Stewie) who is not playing the way he demands they play. They are constantly moving on offense- eagerly picking/screening for their teammates, always ready to make that extra pass, defending like demons. They always play with purpose. They are fundamentally so sound, it's like coach breaks them down, eliminates their bad high school habits, and then builds them up, teaching them the UConn way to play. The Geno/CD way. And that's good for the player- and even better for the team. It's tough, and it isn't for everyone. But the results have been singularly historic.

3. Seems to me that Tennessee has lots of great athletes but fewer top basketball players. While they can play very effective pressing defense at times, that seems mostly a function of their excellent individual athleticism. On offense they often seem lost, all dribble-dribble-dribble, too much one-on-one play with little screening or effective passing/sharing. I don't see an efficient, disciplined, ball-movement offense and that's on the coaches.

4.Kids will do what is demanded of them by their coaches, or they should get splintered behinds. UT seems like a physically gifted bunch of athletes playing dis-organized ball.

"Kids" will be kids, and when not taught to play otherwise, when they are allowed to play undisciplined playground ball, the tendency is to do just that.
The UT kids play that sloppy, inconsistent, undisciplined, clunky-offensive ball because their coaches permit them to. Eighteen and nineteen year-olds need a firm hand to teach and guide them. They cannot be expected to figure it out on their own, and their great athleticism will carry a player only so far. It will build and carry a "team" even less.

1. Huskies Rule's post pretty much encapsulates why Geno/UConn ball is so different from almost every other WCBB team in the nation (world?). But it also indirectly answers a question posed by another poster a few days ago: why do so many H.S. All-Americans arrive at college without grounding in basketball fundamentals. The two things, implied by Huskies Rule, are two sides of the same coin.

2. Geno recognizes (and has often vented about) the fact that AAU teams play often, practice purposefully little. Plus, media attention and scout ratings focus almost exclusively on individual skills. Think of all the high-light videos you see. That conditions young women to develop those individual offensive skills that grab so much praise and attention (and high ranking and calls for college coaches). Last, their high school and AAU coaches like the reflected glow of their players' attention and placement in high-profile college programs. It's a pernicious system.

It also sells the young players a bill of goods about their "games," their abilities, and encourages a misplaced sense of accomplishment and self-regard. Look no further than some of our own UConn recruits, very highly praised and ranked, who are shocked that they are: lacking in fundamentals; court sense; physical strength; and knowledge of how to fit their strengths into a team of high-functioning equals. Stewie discovered how much she had to know and learn; remember how painful that was? Even Maya took quite a long time to look beyond spotting up for her splendid long-range jumper; Geno harangued her for over two years to move constantly and attack the basket. Napheesa Collier recently— and ruefully— confessed that she was stunned to discover that she was not going to prosper until she gained strength and understood basic facts about defensive positioning, etc.

3. So kids come out of high school and AAU ball with sometimes stunning offensive skills, and too many coaches permit them to be satisfied with that. H.R. is so right: they have to be "taught to play otherwise." Some kids will resist: hey, it's worked my way for years, and I was a lionized, prized recruit. Change is scary . . . and hard, "really, really hard," in Geno-speak. He and CD and the other UConn coaches know they have to "demand" those changes. The kids, untaught for so long, cannot figure it out on their own. They prefer to stay in their own comfort zones.

Case in point: Diamond DeShields. I offer her as an example of this unfortunate phenomenon with compassion and a request that everyone understand that she is more victim than perpetrator. When she chose UNC, she claimed that it was where she could express herself freely on the court. I don't have her exact words now, but that was her clear understanding of what she thought would happen with a hands-off coach. She had been seduced by the publicity machine of rankings, etc. Resul at UNC: some successes and some flashes of brilliance. Then she left. Now she is widely pilloried for failing to rescue UT's program. In fact, I see her as hobbled again by a coaching staff that does not "teach." I see a gifted player trying to find teammates on the court, but being unable to anticipate where they will be, where they will cut, how to move the ball to people who are not moving. Compare that chaos to Geno's system of constant, controlled, purposeful movement. Even our frosh, by this time of year, are beginning to understand where and when to cut, when to penetrate and how far, etc. Should DD find and buy into such a system, I think she'd be terrific. So would Graves, etc etc. It's really a shame.

Also a shame this post is so long. Apologies

 

[Rocket009]

I have to believe that had DD come to UConn, there is at least a 50% chance Geno would have molded her into a team-oriented player that he demands.

As we all know and appreciate, the Huskie coaching staff does a superb job analyzing basketball talent, and almost as good a job in analyzing potential recruits for their personality traits.

Since he recruited her, he must have been confident that she had what it takes to succeed at Storrs. So just because she seems off the rail at UNC and UT, that doesn't mean she wouldn't have been a great addition at UConn.

I think it likely that Geno told her exactly what he would expect of her if she came to UCONN. Which is why she didn't.

If Geno were her coach she would either learn to play the way Geno wanted, or simply sit on the bench until she did.

 

[Adesmar123]

Phoenicia fell, Egypt fell, Greece fell, Rome fell, China fell.

And of course - Norman Fell.

 

[Beemer]

I think it's worse than that. Mickie Demoss was Pat's tactician for Pat's last 2 years and had been for 14 years before going away to fail elsewhere as a head coach. DeMoss ran the in game huddles for those last 2 years. Warlick had always been the facilitator, check list Assistant. Tactician Not! I don't mean this in a mean way, just accurate: she's missing at least 2 sticks from a 5 stick pack of gum. How else to explain them being defenseless (er- offense less) against a zone. How else to explain pulling kids with the hot hand (a relative term with UT) and putting in poor shooters, killing game momentum. How else is 6' 6" Russel such a weak push-over in the post?

I have long suspected that Holly was pushed for the job by Pat Summit because she felt she could still effectively run the program while Emeritus and impaired.

I wasn't aware that DeMoss was running the huddles but I'm not surprised to learn that she was. I think what you've said about Warlick is also true.

I understand that everyone at UT loves Pat and doesn't want to do anything to hurt her. I'm sure that's why they went along with her choice of Warlick as successor. But dammit what could be more hurtful than seeing the program she built flush itself down the toilet because people were/are afraid to say or do the things necessary to right the ship, just because they want to spare her feelings????

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I think it likely that Geno told her exactly what he would expect of her if she came to UCONN. Which is why she didn't.

If Geno were her coach she would either learn to play the way Geno wanted, or simply sit on the bench until she did.

Many first hand accounts of UConn stars confirm your hypothesis. I strong suspect that DD's personality was too firmly entrenched by college time for her to have lost her ways and realized her full potential. That's dawning on the Vol faithful now.

 

[TheGOAT23]

IMHO, that UNC team with DD was better than this current Tennessee team.

 

[HuskyNan]

UConn is the quintessential example of "TEAM;" Tennessee is NOT. And therein lies all the difference in the world. So why is one a successful team and the other is not?

Both teams are loaded with McDonalds All-Americans. Tennessee has 7 of them! DeShields was hailed as a once-in-a-generation kind of player; the 6'6" Russell was the #1 recruit in the land. Granted, god does not create every All-American equal, and neither Tennessee nor any other team has two kids even remotely as talented as Breanna Stewart and Moriah Jefferson. But winning is about more than just talent. So how do you explain why Tennessee plays like they do, with the results they achieve, and in what ways is UConn so very different?

UConn players have 100% bought into the concept of team-first, team only. They are disciplined and unselfish- always. Geno unhesitatingly sits any kid (yes, Stewie) who is not playing the way he demands they play. They are constantly moving on offense- eagerly picking/screening for their teammates, always ready to make that extra pass, defending like demons. They always play with purpose. They are fundamentally so sound, it's like coach breaks them down, eliminates their bad high school habits, and then builds them up, teaching them the UConn way to play. The Geno/CD way. And that's good for the player- and even better for the team. It's tough, and it isn't for everyone. But the results have been singularly historic.

Seems to me that Tennessee has lots of great athletes but fewer top basketball players. While they can play very effective pressing defense at times, that seems mostly a function of their excellent individual athleticism. On offense they often seem lost, all dribble-dribble-dribble, too much one-on-one play with little screening or effective passing/sharing. I don't see an efficient, disciplined, ball-movement offense and that's on the coaches.

Kids will do what is demanded of them by their coaches, or they should get splintered behinds. UT seems like a physically gifted bunch of athletes playing dis-organized ball.
To me, this has to be laid at the feet of the coaches. For Tennessee to go 12-8, including two 2-point wins over ordinary Syracuse and Chattanooga squads and two 8-point squeakers over Penn State and Albany, going a pitiful 3-5 away from the home cooking of Thompson-Boling. Wow, this team could easily be 8-12.

"Kids" will be kids, and when not taught to play otherwise, when they are allowed to play undisciplined playground ball, the tendency is to do just that.
The UT kids play that sloppy, inconsistent, undisciplined, clunky-offensive ball because their coaches permit them to. Eighteen and nineteen year-olds need a firm hand to teach and guide them. They cannot be expected to figure it out on their own, and their great athleticism will carry a player only so far. It will build and carry a "team" even less. Without strong, demanding, knowledgeable coaches, little will change for Tennessee.

Someone recently told me he'd heard a great definition of the word team and although it was meant in regards to the workplace, I think it also applies to sports - "A team isn't a group of people that work/play together, it's a group that trusts one another". Perfect definition, IMO.

 

[sarals24]

IMHO, that UNC team with DD was better than this current Tennessee team.

Oh no doubt. There is no way in hell this team makes it as far as UNC did her freshman year.

 

[Orangutan]

IMHO, that UNC team with DD was better than this current Tennessee team.

Re my post about Tennessee having structural issues - UNC had the right talent to surround Diamond. They had shooters (e.g. Allisha Gray) to space the floor and mobile bigs (McDaniel, Mavunga) who could play away from the basket, thereby freeing up the paint for Diamond to drive into.

 

[Baroloboy]

Remember that Geno recruited Diamond and thought he was going to get her. He reportedly even stopped recruiting Bria Holmes because he didn't want to overload the "3" position.

I think you are right (based on Diamond's subsequent public statements) that she didn't come because she didn't want to do things Geno's way, or anyone's way but her own.

Can't you imagine Diana saying (especially as a college freshman) that she was the best player ever to come out of California? She also wrangled with Geno over similar issues, such as her uniform number. Diana wanted to wear "0" or "1", but Geno wouldn't let her. But notably, he won that battle (supposedly by telling her that "3" was Babe Ruth's number and he would help her become the Babe Ruth of WCBB -- which he did), and she didn't transfer when she didn't get her way.

I wonder if Diamond's thought process would be the same today if she could make that decision (not to come to UConn) again. I suspect that the School of Hard Knocks might have taught her a lesson by now.

One other thought: If Diamond had played for Tennessee when Pat was in her prime, Diamond would have fulfilled her potential and this team would be a Top 5 team. Pat may not have been an X's-and-O's genius, but she could wrangle egos and divas and get even her most talented and self-centered players to play as a team.

 

[Baroloboy]

The obvious is plain for everyone to see--- this team is totally out of control and Holly is an atrocious coach. The team plays like a high school pick up game. Let me first say I am no apologist for Pat but anyone who has watched Pat coach in her prime knows that if this was her team there would be blood on the locker room floor every night. No,Tenn would not be a top 5 team but with Pat at the helm at least the ship wouldn't be rudderless and with the potential talent on the team they would at least be attempting to play the type of bb that wasn't an embarrassment for a major league program.