Sun sinking in the EAST?

[ocoandasoc]

Pre-season I said that the Sun could lose their first six games and wondered if that would bring the team's management to admit they made a big mistake letting MT go. Well, they've actually done a little better than I thought they would, managing to beat a dysfunctional and tired Seattle team.

Under MT the Sun were a Championship contender.... under AD they are not even a playoff contender. They are in the East basement and likely to stay there.

The bench outscored the starters last night. Douglas went zero for seven. Renee had 11 points in 8 minutes but sat on the bench for the other 32. And the defense was non-existent.

 

[CTyankee]

What an embarrassment. How long will this go on?

 

[EricLA]

No idea about the Sun, but what a disaster from management. On the other hand, nice seeing Hayes earn the start for Atlanta and lead her team with 20 points...

 

[MarieYLee]

The Sun will be in the lottery for the next two years at least (Don't see Atlanta, Chicago or Indiana being that bad that fast, NY still have Tina and Cappie and Washington has a great coach). Hopefully by then, they realize Donovan isn't the answer. By, that means they have a shot a Stewert.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

In all the e-mails & faxes I've exchanged with Chris Sienko the Sun General Mgr. he swears by Anne Donovan as one of the great coaches in WBB! My reply according to the GM poll from WNBA.com he's the only GM that feels that way! MT is ranked high in almost every category!
The Sun fired M. Thibault on Nov. 20, 2012 and hired A. Donovan on Jan. 2, 2013 ! How do you fire one of the top coaches in WBB without having a replacement waiting in the wings? They waited almost 6 weeks to replace MT and the best they could come up with is AD? Incompetent is the best you can call Sun ownership/management!

 

[MilfordHusky]

The new players are talented but inexperienced. The vets may be unhappy. I'm not sold on AD. It's not pretty. I hope Kaleena doesn't get stuck there next year.

 

[phil sampieri]

The new players are talented but inexperienced. The vets may be unhappy. I'm not sold on AD. It's not pretty. I hope Kaleena doesn't get stuck there next year.

So let me see 3 guards shoot 1 for 15- Rene plays 8 minutes, shoots 4 for 5 - 11 pts Why only 8 minutes ? Has the non-playing critizism of AD for not playing Lobo in the Olympics, manifested itself still today ?

 

[VAUConnFan]

IIRC, the consensus sentiment here two years ago was not very much in Coach Thibault's corner. IMO, the Sun went as far as they could with Coach Thibault and instituted a change:
2008 - Lost in 1st round as the 2nd seed to 3rd seeded NY.
2009 - Did not make the playoffs
2010 - Did not make the playoffs
2011 - Lost in 1st round as the 2 seed to 3rd seeded Atlanta
2012 - Lost in the 2nd round as the #1 seed to 2nd seeded and eventual WNBA champion Indiana.

Does anyone here honestly believe the Sun is a better team than their won/lost record indicates? Could they possibly be a better team sans Tina? Hypothetically, they fire Coach Donovan, who are the Sun going to hire to lead them back into the playoffs?

 

[VAUConnFan]

So let me see 3 guards shoot 1 for 15- Rene plays 8 minutes, shoots 4 for 5 - 11 pts Why only 8 minutes ? Has the non-playing critizism of AD for not playing Lobo in the Olympics, manifested itself still today ?

I always though Coach Auriemma's beef was with Coach Vanderveer for not playing Rebecca. A lot of grandstanding. Ms Lobo had a stellar college career at UConn, but was not ready for that level of Olympic competition in 1996; And was merely mediocre in previous international competitions.

 

[ThisJustIn]

I always though Coach Auriemma's beef was with Coach Vanderveer for not playing Rebecca. A lot of grandstanding. Ms Lobo had a stellar college career at UConn, but was not ready for that level of Olympic competition in 1996; And was merely mediocre in previous international competitions.

Actually, it was UConn fans who had the issue with Tara. They were insulted that she would put USA Basketball ahead of the desires of the home crowd. And, if you read "Venus to the Hoop" and other writings about the time, you'll hear Rebecca recognize she was rather out of her league.

Anne Donovan, as I'm sure you will recall, won Olympic gold in '08.

 

[hoophuskee]

IIRC, the consensus sentiment here two years ago was not very much in Coach Thibault's corner. IMO, the Sun went as far as they could with Coach Thibault and instituted a change:
2008 - Lost in 1st round as the 2nd seed to 3rd seeded NY.
2009 - Did not make the playoffs
2010 - Did not make the playoffs
2011 - Lost in 1st round as the 2 seed to 3rd seeded Atlanta
2012 - Lost in the 2nd round as the #1 seed to 2nd seeded and eventual WNBA champion Indiana.

Does anyone here honestly believe the Sun is a better team than their won/lost record indicates? Could they possibly be a better team sans Tina? Hypothetically, they fire Coach Donovan, who are the Sun going to hire to lead them back into the playoffs?

Well the consensus would have been wrong. So I don't get what your point is. While I agree with current expectations, whose fault is that? It's what you'd expect of a bad coach and bad management, isn't it? So while we know this team has no shot- I think we knew other years during MT's reign some years we had no shot. Your showing past history appears like some kind of indictment on MT when in fact imo he just met capabilities of his teams for the most part.

We were a paper tiger in 2012. Tina was not the best player in WNBA but it appeared that way. A GM has ot be smart enough to know that. Indiana made a great move to get Larkins that allowed them to compete on the inside as well. With that said if Whelan was healthy - they win- the West had the dominant teams. And Atlanta has shown they have been among the best. Our Sun have been limited.

Don't we all know Tina was the key to this team? Do you think the GM and AD knew we'd stink for 3 at least 3 straight years after MT left? Couldn't you have predicted that -if you knew Tina wan't going to be happy? You realize we are going to be Stewie sweepstakes, right? So does the GM get a pass for lousy basketball for four straight years?

 

[hoophuskee]

Actually, it was UConn fans who had the issue with Tara. They were insulted that she would put USA Basketball ahead of the desires of the home crowd. And, if you read "Venus to the Hoop" and other writings about the time, you'll hear Rebecca recognize she was rather out of her league.

Anne Donovan, as I'm sure you will recall, won Olympic gold in '08.

And she also got a bronze medal another time, didn't she?

 

[hoophuskee]

I always though Coach Auriemma's beef was with Coach Vanderveer for not playing Rebecca. A lot of grandstanding. Ms Lobo had a stellar college career at UConn, but was not ready for that level of Olympic competition in 1996; And was merely mediocre in previous international competitions.

I never heard he NBA coach ripping Laetner but I heard Tara ripping RL. It was an honorary position. No teams had a chance to beat us in men's or women's. There was no reason to go off on the kid.

And if Geno expected her to play until it was a blowout- he was out of his mind.

 

[ThisJustIn]

And she also got a bronze medal another time, didn't she?

2006 worlds with a funky team vs the last of the serious Russian teams...

 

[ThisJustIn]

I never heard he NBA coach ripping Laetner but I heard Tara ripping RL. It was an honorary position. No teams had a chance to beat us in men's or women's. There was no reason to go off on the kid.

And if Geno expected her to play until it was a blowout- he was out of his mind.

"ripping." huh. Honorary position, huh. Sounds like you don't have much respect for Lobo's talent neither... lol

 

[hoophuskee]

"ripping." huh. Honorary position, huh. Sounds like you don't have much respect for Lobo's talent neither... lol

ripping is a bad word? Didn't Rebecca get ripped?

You think Rebecca should have gotten time vs world professional players - grown women?

 

[ThisJustIn]

No, I don't think Rebecca should have gotten time. UConn fans did.

You said Tara ripped her. Then you said Rebecca wasn't on the team because of her talent, it was an "honorary" role. Talk about disrespectful.

So, define "ripped."

Before the national team traveled to Storrs, Conn., last October, reporters in Connecticut asked VanDerveer about Rebecca Lobo, a deity among UConn fans but a rookie on her team. She mentioned something about Lobo being raw and a little out of condition.

``They asked if Rebecca was in the starting lineup. I said, `No,' '' VanDerveer said. ``They asked how she was doing. I said she was a role player, and she'd see limited time based on how she's doing. I told them Rebecca was very mature and had handled things extremely well. They just had unreal expectations for her.''

When VanDerveer was introduced before the game against UConn, she was booed.

http://articles.philly.com/1996-04-...becca-lobo-philadelphia-s-dawn-staley-olympic

 

[hoophuskee]

You said Tara ripped her. Then you said Rebecca wasn't on the team because of her talent, it was an "honorary" role. Talk about disrespectful.

Not disrecpectful at all. Tara – a HOF coach- not playing her much backs up at my belief that Tara was right. Didn’t player her- didn’t need to.

I agree with a HOF coach for not playing Rebecca not much-- because she really wasn’t as good as the others. To me it’s a fact. But for anyone that wants to disagree and has their own perception of what fact is – okay. We can agree to disagree.

So, define "ripped."

Throwing her out of practices. Made her cry from what I remember.

Before the national team traveled to Storrs, Conn., last October, reporters in Connecticut asked VanDerveer about Rebecca Lobo, a deity among UConn fans but a rookie on her team. She mentioned something about Lobo being raw and a little out of condition.

``They asked if Rebecca was in the starting lineup. I said, `No,' '' VanDerveer said. ``They asked how she was doing. I said she was a role player, and she'd see limited time based on how she's doing. I told them Rebecca was very mature and had handled things extremely well. They just had unreal expectations for her.''

This backs up what I’m saying. You may not believe it- if we were face to face I could express it differently. But I felt this-- “They just had unreal expectations for her” --all along.

My first reply regarding what you are discussing was a reply I made that Geno would be out of his mind to expect Rebecca to get time except in blowouts. I can say that here. Not sure Tara can say that publicly. But imo she is saying it in a diplomatic way. IMO it’s not disrespectful. It’s just a fact. She wasn’t as good. She was “honorary” Just as Laetner was.
When VanDerveer was introduced before the game against UConn, she was booed.

I was one of those ripping mad fans years ago at Tara for ripping into Rebecca. I’m no longer mad- and nobody cares/cared anyway. I do agree with Tara though that some had way too much of an expectation. IMO Tara should have gotten over the ff drubbing and having Rebecca forced upon her. Tara didn’t choose Rebecca, right? Her team wasn’t going to lose because of Rebecca. So to go after her in practices was wrong.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

When Anne Donovan coached Seattle to the WNBA title she had without a doubt the most talented team in the league, Sue Bird, Lauren Jackson, Betty Lennox, et al! And a dead person could coach the WBB USA Olympic team to the championship! Geno said he realized with the 12 of the greatest WBB in the world you don't over coach give them discipline and some plays and get out of their way!
It seems the Sun now with AD, they don't run any organized offense, pass it 3-4 times and who ever winds up with the ball take the shot!
As I posted above, Sun Management waited 6 weeks between firing MT and hiring AD! If you're going to fire one of the best coaches don't you already have a PLAN B?
AD & Sun Management have attacked Tina Charles & Kara Lawson for not wanting to win, bad attitude, etc. but has anybody thought that Tina knew she had one of the best coaches in the WNBA in MT, and after seeing AD's 3 1/2 hour practices, and how lousy a coach she is saw her career going down the tubes and had to jump ship!
Kara was hurt & couldn't play when her Dad had a heart attack and she couldn't play anyway so she wanted to take care of her Dad, rumor had it AD wanted Kara to sit on the bench! She refused to leave her Dad!
Does any one remember that Barb Turner played for AD in Seattle! While in Europe playing in the off season, AD called her and said she better get her butt back to Seattle when camp opened or else! When Barb broke her contract and flew back, 2 days later AD cut her from the Seattle roster! Barb got in trouble for breaking her contract!
AD has a history of callous nasty behavior toward players!

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

AD has a history of callous nasty behavior toward players!

When coaches in college exhibit nasty behavior (not talking systematic abuse) towards players - and there are a number of incidents perceived that way in women's basketball lore - I don't like it at all. Examples include forcing players to transfer, unnecessary criticism in pressers, "forgetting" to play seniors on Senior Day, etc

However, when a pro coach does it, while it isn't admirable, it is more in the nature of the business and - while it might inform my opinion of the coach - I don't think of it in the same way as when it occurs in college.

 

[HuskyNan]

So, define "ripped."

Throwing her out of practices. Made her cry from what I remember.

No, that was Geno. He also called Rebecca the worst post player in the country.

Seriously, Tara's job was to win the Olympics, not get more publicity for the team. I do think she could have played Rebecca more minutes when the team came to CT but other than that, I have no beef with the way she handled Rebecca or the National team.

 

[Waquoit]

IIRC, the consensus sentiment here two years ago was not very much in Coach Thibault's corner. IMO, the Sun went as far as they could with Coach Thibault and instituted a change:
2008 - Lost in 1st round as the 2nd seed to 3rd seeded NY.
2009 - Did not make the playoffs
2010 - Did not make the playoffs
2011 - Lost in 1st round as the 2 seed to 3rd seeded Atlanta
2012 - Lost in the 2nd round as the #1 seed to 2nd seeded and eventual WNBA champion Indiana.

Does anyone here honestly believe the Sun is a better team than their won/lost record indicates? Could they possibly be a better team sans Tina? Hypothetically, they fire Coach Donovan, who are the Sun going to hire to lead them back into the playoffs?

I find the sentiment that "the Sun went as far as they could with Coach Thibault" to be idiotic. Winning the championship in any league is hard. When you have a coach that produces a contending team every year, you have something. That's why it took Thibault about 5 seconds to get another job.

The washed-up hack they bring in takes a division winning team (2nd best record overall) and turns them into the worst team in the league. Even worse, she alienates the local hero and best player. That should have been enough to give AD her walking papers. Instead, the Sun doubled down on stupid and brought her back while smearing the player. The result was predictable. An even worse team.

Does anyone here honestly believe the Sun is a better team than their won/lost record indicates? Isn't that a silly question? This is the team the coach wanted. The team they traded their best player to construct. That's not a red flag to you?
Who are the Sun going to hire to lead them back into the playoffs? Besides Mike Thibault you mean? I have no idea, but it would be tough to find someone worse.

 

[hoophuskee]

No, that was Geno. He also called Rebecca the worst post player in the country.

Seriously, Tara's job was to win the Olympics, not get more publicity for the team. I do think she could have played Rebecca more minutes when the team came to CT but other than that, I have no beef with the way she handled Rebecca or the National team.

Are we talking about the same thing? I said Tara ripped into Rebecca. How is that wrong? Justin asked me to explain "ripped."

Secondly, Geno has said for those that aren't going to get mintues, he doesn't coach them the same way, does he? In other words, a player buried on the bench that won't get important mintues, he doesn't go after them in the same manner, does he? I heard him say something to that affect. It's a philospohy I agree with. The last player on the bench that you aren't going to play important mintues - you don't go out of your way to blast them. You're out to win the Olympics not waste your time on a player not as good. As long as the last player is hustling that should be it. Again --I didn't hear Laetner getting ripped on the men's side.

 

[HuskyNan]

Are we talking about the same thing? I said Tara ripped into Rebecca. How is that wrong? Justin asked me to explain "ripped."

Secondly, Geno has said for those that aren't going to get mintues, he doesn't coach them the same way, does he? In other words, a player buried on the bench that won't get important mintues, he doesn't go after them in the same manner, does he? I heard him say something to that affect. It's a philospohy I agree with. The last player on the bench that you aren't going to play important mintues - you don't go out of your way to blast them. You're out to win the Olympics not waste your time on a player not as good. As long as the last player is hustling that should be it. Again --I didn't hear Laetner getting ripped on the men's side.

There is nothing that Tara said to or about Rebecca that Geno hadn't said a hundred times. Remember, Becca went home in tears after her freshman year and nearly quit UConn. I don't see anyone here nursing a 20 year old grudge against Geno for the way he treated Rebecca.

 

[grumpert]

Pre-season I said that the Sun could lose their first six games and wondered if that would bring the team's management to admit they made a big mistake letting MT go. Well, they've actually done a little better than I thought they would, managing to beat a dysfunctional and tired Seattle team.

Under MT the Sun were a Championship contender.... under AD they are not even a playoff contender. They are in the East basement and likely to stay there.

The bench outscored the starters last night. Douglas went zero for seven. Renee had 11 points in 8 minutes but sat on the bench for the other 32. And the defense was non-existent.