Starting Line-up is Broken

[Lefty2one]

I've been saying for two years that Martin is a great smallball four, the problem is we don't have the remaining personnel to make that lineup work consistently. Diggins not being ready and not bringing in a transfer PG is killing this team. After the Maryland loss last year I said that the '21-'22 team would struggle if Diggins wasn't ready and that came to fruition. We simply need more ballhandlers/penetrators/point guards.

In terms of a small lineup we can play for extended minutes, we really only have...

Cole/Hawkins/Jackson/Martin/Sanogo
Cole/Hawkins/Polley/Martin/Sanogo

...and the problem with the Polley lineup is that it's going to get destroyed defensively by dribble penetration. The other problem is that Hawkins is still wildly inconsistent, though he's come on the last couple of games.

We can't leave Gaffney out there for extended minutes, nor Diggins, obviously. It hurts badly. A team that only has one point guard is going to have limitations. If we had a reliable second point guard it opens up options with Cole off-ball more.

Diggins/Cole/Hawkins/Martin/Sanogo
Diggins/Cole/Jackson/Martin/Sanogo
Diggins/Cole/Polley/Martin/Sanogo

As much as we all love Whaley, he is not the player he was the two previous seasons. Akok was supposed to be a nice stretch 4 option that gave us flexibility but that poor kid is never going to be the same after the injury.

Separately, looking forward to next year, what's Karaban's style of play? In the few videos I've seen of him he looks like a slashing stretch 4. Can he shoot it? I don't think I found a clip of him taking a jumper.

 

[mauconnfan]

He definitely needs more PT, I thought Xavier had a lot more trouble defending us yesterday with Gaff in the game with Cole at the 2. With Gaff at the point we are a much better team, Cole, Sanogo, Martin and Jackson. His handle needs work, I’ll give that, but Gaffney’s big problem right now is confidence.

He has played horrifically in the majority of his minutes in all of the games besides the first half last night. How does that earn you minutes? I mean everyone trying to find excuses by saying he should be an off guard, he’s not this or not that. He’s a damn guard and hasn’t been a good one through most of his 3 years, not at the point or off of it. It’s his 3rd year we should be seeing consistency in a positive manner not just hoping for a few good minutes every 10 games. As soon as they through some pressure on him he came back to earth last night as well. I mean more minutes, heck no unless they become positive.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

That would be an improvement except for the elephant in the room, not starting your best player, who needs to play 35 minutes a game - Mr. Sanogo.
Wow I brain farted Whaley instead of Sanogo

 

[jdb50]

Polley must be setting a record for 0-4 stat lines. It is a big problem. I thought Hawkins played with more confidence last night. His stat line was not good but he looked like he was just playing and not thinking as much. St Johns really hits the boards so I don't see Hurley making a change. The one change last night was with Jacksons first wild pass/turnover he was pulled for Hawkins. We need to play much smarter and take open shots and not pass them up to wind up throwing up desperation shots with one second left on the shot clock. This team is a rollercoaster and we crashed last night.

 

[UncleSpliff]

He has played horrifically in the majority of his minutes in all of the games besides the first half last night. How does that earn you minutes? I mean everyone trying to find excuses by saying he should be an off guard, he’s not this or not that. He’s a damn guard and hasn’t been a good one through most of his 3 years, not at the point or off of it. It’s his 3rd year we should be seeing consistency in a positive manner not just hoping for a few good minutes every 10 games. As soon as they through some pressure on him he came back to earth last night as well. I mean more minutes, heck no unless they become positive.

This ^^

Gaffney is shooting 26% in BE play this year. He was shooting an incomprehensible 17% before last nights 3/3 performance. Not sure how 1 half of 1 game trumps the other 11. I don’t know what the answer is but it sure isn’t more Gaffney….

 

[Doctor Hoop]

This whole thread points out the trouble with the team construction.
A. We don’t have a four with the ball handling skills to get to the hoop.
A-2. We have 1 four who is a good shooter when open - and every team knows it and glues a defender to him. You hear them talking about Polley incessantly in the huddles.
B. We have one guard who can reliably get his own shot, and he takes it too deep and forces way too often.
C. We have a big man who can score, and therefore draws doubles but rarely passes out (the kickout last night for the Cole 3 not withstanding)
D. We have 2 3’s who both start and can handle the ball, but only one can drive for his own shot and neither is knock-down from 3.

When we can get out in transition or dominate the offensive glass many of these flaws are hidden. When a team kills the break by beating us on the offensive glass, blocking out on their defensive boards, or knocking the ball away after every made hoop as Xavier did last night, we struggle.

Changing the starters to get more shooters on the floor with Sanogo should help, but it would be even better if guys just hit more of the open shots they are getting.

 

[MyDorona]

This ^^

Gaffney is shooting 26% in BE play this year. He was shooting an incomprehensible 17% before last nights 3/3 performance. Not sure how 1 half of 1 game trumps the other 11. I don’t know what the answer is but it sure isn’t more Gaffney….

Someone here brought up this point a couple weeks ago and I couldn't agree more: in order for this program to take the next step to perennial BE Title contender/ second-weekend team, Hurley needs to show he has the audacity to recruit over guys who aren't developing as expected. It begins with Gaffney and Akok this off-season.

We often talk about Hurley's own development as a coach on this board. Overall I am happy with him, but I will be watching this one aspect closely. His loyalty is one of his strengths, but it is also one of his biggest weaknesses.

 

[Doctor Hoop]

This ^^

Gaffney is shooting 26% in BE play this year. He was shooting an incomprehensible 17% before last nights 3/3 performance. Not sure how 1 half of 1 game trumps the other 11. I don’t know what the answer is but it sure isn’t more Gaffney….

Gaffney‘s good stretch yesterday earned him a learners permit and more chances behind the wheel, but not the keys to the Mercedes.

 

[RichCTBB]

I wouldn’t mind seeing Gaffney in the starting lineup for a change at shooting guard. His defense isn’t terrible and he might actually be more effective if he’s not the primary ball handler. He can certainly offer more scoring than IW. JG and RJ as a backcourt is the closest this team can come to replicating the 2-guard lineups that have won us championships.

 

[mauconnfan]

Gaffney‘s good stretch yesterday earned him a learners permit and more chances behind the wheel, but not the keys to the Mercedes.

I have to admit I’m puzzled why he didn’t get more in the 2nd half. I mean he was a positive on O in the first half and although he looked awful when they threw the pressure out early 2nd half, the fact he didn’t see more time is strange. Not as if AJ or Polley were killling it. The one time in 15 games he looks to have a bit of confidence on the offensive end and he plays less than when he’s turining it over left and right? Explain that to me...

 

[Rico444]

Agree, and we only have the depth people talked about if guys play up to their ability. At this point, I think we need to take the risk and invest minutes in Gaffney out of the gate with the starters. It may change the tempo of the game and the spacing.

I actually agree with this. Whaley and Sanogo can't continue to play significant minutes on the floor together, and Gaffney is a better player than he's shown so far this year, so I'd like to see them try to get him going. He is the best player we have in terms of driving to the basket and finishing. It's crazy to say that out loud, but it's 100% true. Look at the two drives he had last night for buckets, nobody else on the team can get to the rim so easily and actually finish. He's got a good first step and is quick enough to get downhill before the defense can rotate over.

 

[QDOG5]

I can't advocate for Gaff starting. A few more minutes maybe. He was decent last night but missed two free throws (almost air balled the first), had a crazy drive to nowhere that resulted in an offensive foul and as @mauconnfan mentioned when he was pressured he did not handle it well. I'm thinking Whaley to the bench for Hawkins. Whaley will still get 22-28 minutes off the bench. Two other things I'd like to see are Dan Hurley telling AJax if he doesn't look for his offense early in the game he's coming out. How many times is he four feet from the hoop and he makes a two foot pass? Also, I'd like to see Samson get some run. Sanogo's foul issues may continue as teams attack him early in the game and we could plug Samson in there for a couple of minutes each half.

 

[connVA]

Gaffney plays well when there are open driving lanes and he doesn’t have strong ball pressure that exposes his weak composure/handle.

So it would naturally make sense for him to be in when Sanogo is out and not clogging the lane. He would also benefit from another ball handler as a pressure relief.

Sanogo needs shooters to help space the floor.

Polley and to a lesser extent Hawkins need someone to create shots for them. Can take advantage of Sanogo’s gravity here.

Jackson needs a defined role or else he will continue to nuke the lineups he is in. With our current lake of ball handlers/playmakers I like him as a point forward.

Let AJ initiate the offense, but defend the wing:

• Jackson
• Cole
• Hawkins
• Martin
• Sanogo

Sub Polley/Akok for Jackson for better shooting:

• Cole
• Hawkins
• Martin
• Polley/Akok
• Sanogo

Bring in slashers when Sanogo is out to take advantage of the open lane:

• Gaffney
• Cole
• Jackson
• Martin
• Whaley

Multiple ball handlers (Gaff/Jax/Martin) with Cole out:

• Gaffney
• Hawkins
• Jackson
• Martin
• Sanogo

Obviously would need deeper thought, but there are core groupings of players that have obvious synergies that need to be taken advantage of. And others with redundant skills that should be on the court together as little as possible…

When they started overplaying Sanogo down low, I was yelling at the TV for a Cole / Martin / Hawkins / Polley / Sanogo lineup. Serviceable defensively (AJ wasn’t showing a whole lot last night anyway) and you’re forcing Travis to pick his poison. You want to keep collapsing on Adama? Here’s four guys who can make it rain…

 

[tennmike]

You're not winning anything with Gaffney getting significant minutes. When pressured in the second half, he reverted to backing into the defender and the offense stalled.
Whaley is an ideal sixth man. Start Hawkins and bring in Polly for him.
Okay, I said it.

 

[mauconnfan]

I can't advocate for Gaff starting. A few more minutes maybe. He was decent last night but missed two free throws (almost air balled the first), had a crazy drive to nowhere that resulted in an offensive foul and as @mauconnfan mentioned when he was pressured he did not handle it well. I'm thinking Whaley to the bench for Hawkins. Whaley will still get 22-28 minutes off the bench. Two other things I'd like to see are Dan Hurley telling AJax if he doesn't look for his offense early in the game he's coming out. How many times is he four feet from the hoop and he makes a two foot pass? Also, I'd like to see Samson get some run. Sanogo's foul issues may continue as teams attack him early in the game and we could plug Samson in there for a couple of minutes a half.

I mean I’m in the Hawkins park too but imagine if for Whaley how easy the other team will score. I mean that difference is huge. Don’t think we have a viable enough answer to make a change although we should.

Agree on Samson no doubt. No reason not to for so many factors none more so than next year and the future.

 

[UCbcm]

Our lack of a legitimate second guard has been our biggest problem all year. Gaffney has proven he's not that guy with his play so far. Unfortunately, it seems we don't have any other options on the bench that Hurley's willing to try. Gaffney had a decent game last night, but he would need to improve at warp speed to be this team's saving grace.

Can't win if you don't make shots, and Hurley needs to manage the roster and games better.

 

[6xChamps]

Not sure if it’s broken but Hurley needs to do a better job of managing lineups situationally, When you’re down 7 points with a few minutes left in a rock fight like we were last night you’re not gonna comeback with virtually no shooting threats on the floor. Especially when Andre is foul happy like he was last night.

 

[QDOG5]

@mauconnfan, I'm ok with keeping the current starting lineup intact. I don't think Dan Hurley is ready to make a change yet either. The thought I came away with last night is that we would be close to a .500 team without Cole. He's the straw that stirs the drink as Reggie would say. I've posted before that I would rather he moved on after this year but I am seriously rethinking my position on that subject.

 

[tentoes4rings]

Agreed wholeheartedly. We need more ballhandlers and guards. This is not 90s NBA Hurley. And for the love of God can someone please teach Sanogo how to pass out of double team. If I see one approach him for him to turn and attack anyways I'm going to lose it.

I think you’re being too critical here. Prior to his injury he never passed. Since coming back he does make some passes but the guys he passes to throw up bricks. He had a beautiful dish to Cole in the corner for three. Another time he hit Whaley perfectly, but he bricked a 3. Another time his only option was Jackson, whom he had no trust in, so Sanogo forced it into a double team and turned it over. He is making an effort to pass lately but his options at times are so dreadful that he forces it instead.

 

[Chief00]

Yeah I know you hate the hard hedge, you blame it for everything that ever goes wrong with this team. It's a very good defensive strategy despite you constantly saying otherwise

My opening post was

I actually agree with this. Whaley and Sanogo can't continue to play significant minutes on the floor together, and Gaffney is a better player than he's shown so far this year, so I'd like to see them try to get him going. He is the best player we have in terms of driving to the basket and finishing. It's crazy to say that out loud, but it's 100% true. Look at the two drives he had last night for buckets, nobody else on the team can get to the rim so easily and actually finish. He's got a good first step and is quick enough to get downhill before the defense can rotate over.

i agree about the ability those two drives displayed. As with so many players on this year’s team the wise words of John Wooden come to mind. Be quick but don’t hurry. To often on possessions we are slow tempo without making progress up until a hurried shot.

 

[Chief00]

Not sure if it’s broken but Hurley needs to do a better job of managing lineups situationally, When you’re down 7 points with a few minutes left in a rock fight like we were last night you’re not gonna comeback with virtually no shooting threats on the floor. Especially when Andre is foul happy like he was last night.

I agree on the end of game strategy but Chief takes the position we set-up losing the game early. The poor shooting starting lineup sets the table for poor shot selection, guys making wild drives, foul trouble that reduces minutes for guys we need on the floor to win. The sad part is our guys end up not trusting each other. Watching it unfold Chief can understand why but that mindset won’t produce wins against good teams.

 

[tentoes4rings]

I mean I’m in the Hawkins park too but imagine if for Whaley how easy the other team will score. I mean that difference is huge. Don’t think we have a viable enough answer to make a change although we should.

Agree on Samson no doubt. No reason not to for so many factors none more so than next year and the future.

Ok, if Whaley is going to continue to start, change the offense then. Sanogo down low with Whaley and Jackson as three point shooters is an awful offense. Whaley is a good passer and can be more effective down low with putbacks, rebounds and passes. He’s averaging less than 6 rpg and is shooting 30% from three. You can’t play Whaley and Jackson behind the 3 point line and expect good results.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Ok, if Whaley is going to continue to start, change the offense then. Sanogo down low with Whaley and Jackson as three point shooters is an awful offense. Whaley is a good passer and can be more effective down low with putbacks, rebounds and passes. He’s averaging less than 6 rpg and is shooting 30% from three. You can’t play Whaley and Jackson behind the 3 point line and expect good results.

Jackson can hit three’s, with Whaley you’re better off buying a power ball ticket.

 

[Chief00]

Yeah I know you hate the hard hedge, you blame it for everything that ever goes wrong with this team. It's a very good defensive strategy despite you constantly saying otherwise

90% of my opening post focused on offense. But, it does adversely impact that due to Sanogo picking up fouls either hedging against guards 25 feet from the basket or running to catch up with the driver. It’s a disaster.
As I said before, Jim made the adjustment away from the pressing as his competition and personnel changed. Hurley is no longer coaching at Wagner where most guys are interchangeable and Bigs are 6-7 not 6-10.

 

[UCSouth]

I can't advocate for Gaff starting. A few more minutes maybe. He was decent last night but missed two free throws (almost air balled the first), had a crazy drive to nowhere that resulted in an offensive foul and as @mauconnfan mentioned when he was pressured he did not handle it well. I'm thinking Whaley to the bench for Hawkins. Whaley will still get 22-28 minutes off the bench. Two other things I'd like to see are Dan Hurley telling AJax if he doesn't look for his offense early in the game he's coming out. How many times is he four feet from the hoop and he makes a two foot pass? Also, I'd like to see Samson get some run. Sanogo's foul issues may continue as teams attack him early in the game and we could plug Samson in there for a couple of minutes each half.

I kinda like the idea of Samson in the game for a little bit because he can really open up the lane by being a stretch 5. Or maybe I'm just a little crazy for thinking that.

 

[Chief00]

He has played horrifically in the majority of his minutes in all of the games besides the first half last night. How does that earn you minutes? I mean everyone trying to find excuses by saying he should be an off guard, he’s not this or not that. He’s a damn guard and hasn’t been a good one through most of his 3 years, not at the point or off of it. It’s his 3rd year we should be seeing consistency in a positive manner not just hoping for a few good minutes every 10 games. As soon as they through some pressure on him he came back to earth last night as well. I mean more minutes, heck no unless they become positive.

My suggestion is roll the dice because at least he has the skills and physical potential to provide the answers we need as he did closing out last season. If it doesn’t happen, both he and the team will move on.

 

[geordi]

Man, the entertainment value of this board is just off the scale. The starting five is broken and has to be changed. But our bench is not deep enough and should be playing starter minutes??? Jackson can't score the ball, needs to improve his handle, and won't look for his shot, but he's the best player on the court. Gaffney is a waste and Diggins should be getting his minutes, but Gaffney needs to be starting alongside Cole. Sanogo's a beast, but he keeps forcing play under the basket and turning it over. The coach doesn't know what he's doing, obviously can't recruit, and is too emotional on the sidelines leading to technicals. He's right on target, though, in bringing us back to relevance and top 25 stature.

God, I love you guys!!!

 

[Deleted at users request]

I think you’re being too critical here. Prior to his injury he never passed. Since coming back he does make some passes but the guys he passes to throw up bricks. He had a beautiful dish to Cole in the corner for three. Another time he hit Whaley perfectly, but he bricked a 3. Another time his only option was Jackson, whom he had no trust in, so Sanogo forced it into a double team and turned it over. He is making an effort to pass lately but his options at times are so dreadful that he forces it instead.

I would like to see him make those passes regardless because it's just good offense. Make the defense work and move. Try to do it with better timing too I'd say as sometimes he passes it too late. If he was capable of being a good passer out the post it would be a lot easier to run our offense through him and make him that much more dangerous. Because he does draw a lot of attention.

 

[JamesinGR]

Another night, we hit the 10 minute mark and have 10-13 points and Sanogo in foul trouble.

Last night Sanogo plays 25 minutes and Whaley 37, that’s a problem as Whaley scores 2 points and goes 1-6. Sanogo collects 11 points, going 3-6.

If we have 5 guys with Isiah’s production, we are scoring 10 -12 points a game as a team. It’s insanity. 2 points in 37 minutes, doesn’t work.

The starting lineup needs to be revamped - At least Gaffney, Hawkins and Polley have the potential to hit some shots. However, Polley can't create on his own and by the time he comes in Sanogo goes to bench with fouls. Therefore, there’s not the collapse defense that would give him and Hawkins space. Meanwhile, we pretend we have a stretch 4.

We need to start:
Sanogo
Cole
Martin/Jackson
Gaffney
Hawkins/Polley

Yes, there is nothing wrong with going with a hot hand and with this team Chief is not going to pretend I know who he is ahead of time. I do know Gaffney gives us another ball handler and penetrator. Sanogo with the current starting lineup gets straight up doubled - the opponent doesn’t even try to disguise where it is coming from.

We need to run and pressure on defense but not with a 6-10 230 pd guy chasing point guards 25 feet from the basket.

Two PG ball handlers gives us another dimension and makes our offensive less predictable and limited.

As much as we handicap ourselves with the starting lineup opening 10 minutes of Rock Fight, we still almost win. Eliminate that torture and we start beating good teams consistently.

No way on earth Gaffney can start imo. Sanogo, Cole, Martin, Jackson, Hawkins.

 

[tentoes4rings]

I think the biggest problem with the construction of this roster is Hurley and staff obviously expected last year’s versions of Polley and Whaley but they’ve both regressed greatly. He has said on multiple occasions that The Big East is very physical and not many teams rely on freshman. It they viewed at least Johnson and Diggins as projects, that means they had championship aspirations for:

Sanogo
Whaley
Jackson
Martín
Cole
Akok
Hawkins
Gaffney

Gaffney, Whaley and Polley haven’t been as good or better than last year, Jackson can’t shoot and Hawkins is still developing. I think we need to temper our expectations of this group because they’re too inconsistent and too flawed as a whole. When they run well they can look almost as good as anyone in the country but when forced to slug it out in the half court, it’s an entirely different story.