Spoelstra and LeBron....

[Huskies4ever]

Yet, people still condemn him for leaving Cleveland and putting himself in a better position to win a ring.

I think it's more the fact that he's the Chosen One. King James. He had to form a Mini Dream Team to win a title. Could you imagine Michael Jordan (before his first title) joining Magic and the Lakers? Look at the many All-Time Greats from the '80's-'90's that didn't win a title (Stockton, Malone, Miller, Ewing, Barkley) to name a few. Hell, there was talk of Reggie Miller coming out of retirement and joining the '07-'08 Celtics for his first title. LeBron's gonna be viewed as taking the easy way out. I'm not diminishing his greatness, but that is how many people perceive him. That, and the fact that The Decision turned a lot of people off. Those are the reasons people condemn him.

 

[champs99and04]

I more or less agree. He would have gone down as an all-time great no matter what.

BUT, I do think that you don't want to go down as the great one that didn't win a title. Peyton Manning is an all time great no matter what, but I'm sure he slept better after winning a title. Dan Marino is undoubtably one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, but...

I can agree with that. Fairly or unfairly, there is always going to be that "yeah, but" next to the guys who never won a ring. You don't want to be that guy

 

[champs99and04]

I think it's more the fact that he's the Chosen One. King James. He had to form a Mini Dream Team to win a title. Could you imagine Michael Jordan (before his first title) joining Magic and the Lakers? Look at the many All-Time Greats from the '80's-'90's that didn't win a title (Stockton, Malone, Miller, Ewing, Barkley) to name a few. Hell, there was talk of Reggie Miller coming out of retirement and joining the '07-'08 Celtics for his first title. LeBron's gonna be viewed as taking the easy way out. I'm not diminishing his greatness, but that is how many people perceive him. That, and the fact that The Decision turned a lot of people off. Those are the reasons people condemn him.

People are going to have their opinions on LeBron and there isn't a lot you or I can do to change those opinions. However, relative to some of his athletic counter-parts who have committed far more egregious sins, LeBron's mis-steps seem trivial at worst in the grand scheme of things.

As for hammering Bron for "taking the easy way out", well, those people just need to do some more research in my opinion. Remember, LeBron played without Chris Bosh for the second round and the majority of the conference finals. Dwyane Wade was also mysteriously absent during some crucial moments along the way, and was probably playing 75-80% at best. Chalmers, Battier, Miller, Haslem, etc. were incredibly streaky -- you had no idea what to expect from any of them game in game out until Battier managed to find the fountain of youth at the tail end of the Boston series. Indiana, Boston, and Oklahoma City were all more complete teams than Miami. It was LeBron's greatness that pushed the Heat over the top.

 

[Huskies4ever]

People are going to have their opinions on LeBron and there isn't a lot you or I can do to change those opinions. However, relative to some of his athletic counter-parts who have committed far more egregious sins, LeBron's mis-steps seem trivial at worst in the grand scheme of things.

As for hammering Bron for "taking the easy way out", well, those people just need to do some more research in my opinion. Remember, LeBron played without Chris Bosh for the second round and the majority of the conference finals. Dwyane Wade was also mysteriously absent during some crucial moments along the way, and was probably playing 75-80% at best. Chalmers, Battier, Miller, Haslem, etc. were incredibly streaky -- you had no idea what to expect from any of them game in game out until Battier managed to find the fountain of youth at the tail end of the Boston series. Indiana, Boston, and Oklahoma City were all more complete teams than Miami. It was LeBron's greatness that pushed the Heat over the top.

Didn't say he was caught with drugs or assaulted anyone, just the way he will be viewed in the circle of public opinion. "Yeah, but he didn't allow the Cavs to form a worthy team around him. He just formed an All-Star Team himself." Maybe he told the Cavs front office a million times, " Please surround me with better players." I think LeBron is an amazing basketball player with abilities that very few have had throughout the course of time. He is an All-Time Great. I would have rather seen him stick with Cleveland than bail on them when the going got tough. Like I used as an example, did Jordan join Magic and the Lakers before his first title to win a title? LeBron is amazing. He took the easy way out. He's good enough to have led a lesser team to a title. But he chose not to.

 

[Huskies4ever]

As for hammering Bron for "taking the easy way out", well, those people just need to do some more research in my opinion. Remember, LeBron played without Chris Bosh for the second round and the majority of the conference finals. Dwyane Wade was also mysteriously absent during some crucial moments along the way, and was probably playing 75-80% at best. Chalmers, Battier, Miller, Haslem, etc. were incredibly streaky -- you had no idea what to expect from any of them game in game out until Battier managed to find the fountain of youth at the tail end of the Boston series. Indiana, Boston, and Oklahoma City were all more complete teams than Miami. It was LeBron's greatness that pushed the Heat over the top.

The Miami Heat were more talented than 98% of the teams in the league no matter how healthy they were. I give them credit for how they played without Bosh and with a less- than hundred percent Wade, but they were a far better team than anyone in the Eastern Conference. I give the Celtics a ton of credit for pushing the series to 7 games. Didn't expect it to get beyond 5. I'm not questioning James' greatness, just that he needed to surround it with two other top 15 players to win a title.

 

[champs99and04]

Didn't say he was caught with drugs or assaulted anyone, just the way he will be viewed in the circle of public opinion. "Yeah, but he didn't allow the Cavs to form a worthy team around him. He just formed an All-Star Team himself." Maybe he told the Cavs front office a million times, " Please surround me with better players." I think LeBron is an amazing basketball player with abilities that very few have had throughout the course of time. He is an All-Time Great. I would have rather seen him stick with Cleveland than bail on them when the going got tough. Like I used as an example, did Jordan join Magic and the Lakers before his first title to win a title? LeBron is amazing. He took the easy way out. He's good enough to have led a lesser team to a title. But he chose not to.

I understand people are naturally going to draw comparisons to what Jordan would have done, but it's really not the best example. Not only was there a lack of talent on those Cleveland teams, but their cap space was tied up for the short term as well, which would have made it difficult to win a championship in 2011 or 2012, which was ultimately LeBron's #1 priority. People love to hammer LeBron for not committing there long term, but let's be real, he gave Cleveland seven years of his career and their front office was never able to find him a reliable second and third option. It was unrealistic to ask LeBron to compete with teams like the Celtics and Lakers when their second leading scorer was Mo Williams, somebody who is currently a mere role player on a decent Clippers team.

It's impossible to say what Jordan would have done if he was placed in LeBron's predicament. Considering how competitive he was, I certainly wouldn't have put it past him to flock to greener pastures in pursuit of a ring. Magic played with multiple hall of famers from the day he entered the league to the day he left. Again, not the best comparison. If LeBron had teamed up with Boston or L.A., the two powerhouses at the league at the time of his decision, you may have had a point. It made a lot of sense in my mind to join forces with two other all-star players who were dealing with similar issues themselves in an attempt to dethrone the Lakers and Celtics of the world.

Another poster made this point earlier, but 99% of the teams that win the championship in the NBA have equal, if not more talent than anybody else in the league. The Heat were no different in this regard. Do you think MJ used to say to himself, "you know, it's unfair that I'm on a team with this much talent. I'm going to join a less talented team to challenge myself"?

 

[traitor71]

"Yeah, but he didn't allow the Cavs to form a worthy team around him. He just formed an All-Star Team himself."

How many years should he have given that loser organization to build said team?

 

[8893]

That's where I disagree, though. Did LeBron display any less toughness/drive/willingness to do whatever it took to win when he was putting up 39/8/8 in the Magic seies a few years ago? Was he not consistent enough to win a ring in 2009 when he averaged 35/9/7 on 51% shooting throughout an entire postseason? Did he want to win any less when he was scoring 29 of the final 30 points against Detroit in 2007, or when he was going 1 on 3 against three hall of famers in 2008, or when he put up a 26, 18, and 10 against Boston in an elimination game in 2010?

I'm sure my opinion differs from many others, but I don't think legends are legends because they win rings. They win rings naturally as a product of being legends. If LeBron never won a ring, it wouldn't have made him any less great - it would have made him a historical anoymaly among legends.

You missed the "and knowing what it is that needed doing" part. This was his best Finals performance by any measure. Not coincidentally, it also led to his first ring. For these last four games in particular, it seemed his timing was impeccable: score when needed to score; pass when needed to pass; defend at key spots. He led and did what needed doing, when it needed doing. You can't tell me that Cleveland didn't have players at least as talented as Battier, Miller or Chalmers around him; while streaky, for the most part these guys only had the ball in the Finals when they were hot. And for the most part, it was LeBron getting them the ball at the right time, in the right position. In addition to his own timely scoring, that's the type of stuff I'm talking about. He mood was different this time; even he admits it--as do the others around him. Where your opinion differs from mine is that you think the analysis is limited to statistics, without relation to timing.

 

[Huskies4ever]

How many years should he have given that loser organization to build said team?

3 more? I don't know, loyalty? He could have asked for a sign and trade without leaving Cleveland with nothing, and doing it by not letting them know he was leaving until The Decision.

 

[Huskies4ever]

I understand people are naturally going to draw comparisons to what Jordan would have done, but it's really not the best example. Not only was there a lack of talent on those Cleveland teams, but their cap space was tied up for the short term as well, which would have made it difficult to win a championship in 2011 or 2012, which was ultimately LeBron's #1 priority. People love to hammer LeBron for not committing there long term, but let's be real, he gave Cleveland seven years of his career and their front office was never able to find him a reliable second and third option. It was unrealistic to ask LeBron to compete with teams like the Celtics and Lakers when their second leading scorer was Mo Williams, somebody who is currently a mere role player on a decent Clippers team.

It's impossible to say what Jordan would have done if he was placed in LeBron's predicament. Considering how competitive he was, I certainly wouldn't have put it past him to flock to greener pastures in pursuit of a ring. Magic played with multiple hall of famers from the day he entered the league to the day he left. Again, not the best comparison. If LeBron had teamed up with Boston or L.A., the two powerhouses at the league at the time of his decision, you may have had a point. It made a lot of sense in my mind to join forces with two other all-star players who were dealing with similar issues themselves in an attempt to dethrone the Lakers and Celtics of the world.

Another poster made this point earlier, but 99% of the teams that win the championship in the NBA have equal, if not more talent than anybody else in the league. The Heat were no different in this regard. Do you think MJ used to say to himself, "you know, it's unfair that I'm on a team with this much talent. I'm going to join a less talented team to challenge myself"?

I respect your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree. LeBron's move, the way he left Cleveland, left him open to criticism. He became the villain to a lot of people. I'm not questioning his greatness, he's an amazing basketball player and I love his game. I'm questioning the shortcut he took to his first title and the way he conducted himself in this regard. I hope for his sake, he wins seven or eight titles, or how ever many he proclaimed the Heat would win.

 

[champs99and04]

You missed the "and knowing what it is that needed doing" part. This was his best Finals performance by any measure. Not coincidentally, it also led to his first ring. For these last four games in particular, it seemed his timing was impeccable: score when needed to score; pass when needed to pass; defend at key spots. He led and did what needed doing, when it needed doing. You can't tell me that Cleveland didn't have players at least as talented as Battier, Miller or Chalmers around him; while streaky, for the most part these guys only had the ball in the Finals when they were hot. And for the most part, it was LeBron getting them the ball at the right time, in the right position. In addition to his own timely scoring, that's the type of stuff I'm talking about. He mood was different this time; even he admits it--as do the others around him. Where your opinion differs from mine is that you think the analysis is limited to statistics, without relation to timing.

I understand that there is more to the game than what is presented in a box score, it's just difficult to quantify and disprove vague statements like, "he scored when he needed to score". He certainly played exponentially better than he did in his previous two finals, I'm not denying that. But how are we to be sure that LeBron wouldn't have continued to perform at a high level had his supporting cast been up to par in any of the previous years before he arrived in Miami? I realize it's a results oriented buisness, but the media driven fairy tale ending isn't always reality.

Look at it this way: How would the general public view LeBron right now if Miami had lost to Boston in the conference finals? Something tells me media members and NBA fans would be demeaning his career and taking issue with what he failed to do in the series. And, in my opinion, the Heat would lost to Boston in game seven had Chris Bosh not returned from his injury, and you would have had people making the same exact statements as they were last year, and the year before, and the year before, whether it was warranted or not. So I guess it's a fair stance to take if you believe LeBron reached his peak as a player in this postseason, or fulfilled some sort of prophecy, but without the Bosh's and Wade's of the world, it's going to be very difficult to get over the hump regardless of how well you play.

 

[champs99and04]

I respect your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree. LeBron's move, the way he left Cleveland, left him open to criticism. He became the villain to a lot of people. I'm not questioning his greatness, he's an amazing basketball player and I love his game. I'm questioning the shortcut he took to his first title and the way he conducted himself in this regard. I hope for his sake, he wins seven or eight titles, or how ever many he proclaimed the Heat would win.

Ok, fair enough.

 

[babysheep]

Imagine if LeBron was accused of something actually malicious like rape like Kobe and Rothlisberger were, as opposed to just hurting a bunch of people's delicate feelings.

Oh and as if one guy has ever carried a team through an entire championship. We all know Jordan doesn't win as many championships without Pippen.

 

[traitor71]

3 more? I don't know, loyalty? He could have asked for a sign and trade without leaving Cleveland with nothing, and doing it by not letting them know he was leaving until The Decision.

Loyalty? They paid him and he played. That's how it works in sports and in life as well. Sometimes you have to know when to jump to a better situation, a better company, a better organization. The guy had a chance to go with a proven winner in Riley as opposed to sticking with a helpless organization that was never going to get it done. You can dislike the way he went about it, but leaving Cleveland was a no brainer

 

[babysheep]

 

[8893]

So I guess it's a fair stance to take if you believe LeBron reached his peak as a player in this postseason, or fulfilled some sort of prophecy, but without the Bosh's and Wade's of the world, it's going to be very difficult to get over the hump regardless of how well you play.

To the extent that you read me to suggest that I believe that LeBron has reached his peak as a player this postseason, that is not accurate. I believe this is possibly just the beginning of his performance at this next level. You can find Boshes and Wades. You can't find another one of whatever this guy is when he is playing at this level. Wades and Boshes will be knocking down your doors to come in. Among others, Ray is apparently willing to take the league minimum to join them. He may not be equal to either of them at this point in his career, but the fact that these types of players will be lining up to take the minimum and party in Miami bodes well for the continued success of this model. LeBron is the only one essential to the formula imo. The others can adapt, and now he has shown that he can, too.

 

[Scoe]

To the extent that you read me to suggest that I believe that LeBron has reached his peak as a player this postseason, that is not accurate. I believe this is possibly just the beginning of his performance at this next level. You can find Boshes and Wades. You can't find another one of whatever this guy is when he is playing at this level. Wades and Boshes will be knocking down your doors to come in. Among others, Ray is apparently willing to take the league minimum to join them. He may not be equal to either of them at this point in his career, but the fact that these types of players will be lining up to take the minimum and party in Miami bodes well for the continued success of this model. LeBron is the only one essential to the formula imo. The others can adapt, and now he has shown that he can, too.

Mentally it looks like a new Lebron which is just scary, they now get Mike Miller off the books, there is talk of them getting Nash or Ray

 

[champs99and04]

To the extent that you read me to suggest that I believe that LeBron has reached his peak as a player this postseason, that is not accurate. I believe this is possibly just the beginning of his performance at this next level. You can find Boshes and Wades. You can't find another one of whatever this guy is when he is playing at this level. Wades and Boshes will be knocking down your doors to come in. Among others, Ray is apparently willing to take the league minimum to join them. He may not be equal to either of them at this point in his career, but the fact that these types of players will be lining up to take the minimum and party in Miami bodes well for the continued success of this model. LeBron is the only one essential to the formula imo. The others can adapt, and now he has shown that he can, too.

I think you might be selling Wade short a bit (maybe top 40 all-time player), but I agree with your premise that we'll likely never again see a LeBron James, while we'll probably see another ten Wade's in our lifetime. If Ray Allen joins the Heat, it would be really, really difficult to see anybody knocking them off the mountain top, at least not next season. As well as Mike Miller and Shane Battier played at times during the Finals, their not Ray Allen, they can't use screens as well, or get their shot off in as short a window as time as Ray can. Imagine posting LeBron on the right block and planting Ray in the right corner. Defenses are in quite the predicament, aren't they? If you leave player x on an island with LeBron, he's going to get roasted, and if you double, you've got the best three point shooter of all-time ten feet away.

The NBA really isn't too difficult to figure out these days. Acquire three or four star players, whether it be through the draft (OKC, SA), free agency (Miami), or trade (Boston) and then surround them with complementary pieces.

 

[JaYnYcE]

Mentally it looks like a new Lebron which is just scary, they now get Mike Miller off the books, there is talk of them getting Nash or Ray

They don't have enough for Nash or Ray. I heard Nash is looking anywhere between 8-10 Million next year. And if Ray is leaving Boston because he doesn't want to come off the bench, why go to Miami? They already have the 2-3 locked up in Wade and James.