Spoelstra and LeBron....

[Burnsbros23]

Think you mean no right hand, Harden is a lefty. Officials caught on to his game as the playoffs progressed. In the lakers series he was getting all kind of calls when he would eurostep into people or run right into people and flop. In the spurs series refs figured his game out and stopped giving him the bogus foul calls. Also the heat played brilliant defense on him seem like they really watch tape on him and made him uncomfortable out there.

 

[Burnsbros23]

Harden isnt a max player but someone is going to give him max money. I heard a rumor they might trade him for the number two pick. Not the worse idea if they feel they cant resign him.

 

[champs99and04]

LeBron was brilliant in that series, but I think it's silly to claim that he needed to win a ring to cement his name alongside the all-time greats. The fact that it took LeBron nine years to win a ring takes nothing away from his individual greatness, and does nothing more than re-enforce the age-old hypothesis that a great team wins out over a great player.

LeBron's always been a great player, the difference between this year and years past is that this is his first time playing on a great team. Unlike his days in Cleveland, LeBron had two guys by his side he felt comfortable penciling in for 20+ a night. Oftentimes, LeBron had to manufacture points for his teammates beause there was really nobody else on those teams who could consistently create for themselves. Even the best players only control 20-25% of the action on the court, if that. Anybody who has the nerve to assess the Cavs-Magic 2009 series (in which LBJ averaged 38-8-8 on 49% shooting) and claim that LeBron played like anything less than a champion deserves to have their analyist hat revoked, period. Even during the 2010 Boston series, when people claimed he quit, LeBron put fourth some heroic efforts. These were instances of LeBron's teammates failing him in the aspects of the game he could not control. I don't think there has ever been an example in which a team who was thoroughly outclassed at three of the five positions (like Cleveland was against Boston in 2010) managed to win the series. Yet, people still condemn him for leaving Cleveland and putting himself in a better position to win a ring.

Kobe Bryant, arguably one of the ten greatest to ever play the game, wouldn't have had enough around him to get past the second round on some of those Cleveland teams, in my opinion. It's a testament to LeBron's overall body of greatness that he managed to haul a shoddy supporting cast at best to two eastern conference finals and an NBA finals appearance.

In regards to Harden, one bad series isn't enough to completely minimize my opinion of him as a player. He hasn't been consistent enough to be labeled one of the best 20-25 players in the league, but at age 22, he's shown enough flashes of greatness to be fairly considered a max contract type player.

 

[8893]

LeBron was brilliant in that series, but I think it's silly to claim that he needed to win a ring to cement his name alongside the all-time greats. The fact that it took LeBron nine years to win a ring takes nothing away from his individual greatness, and does nothing more than re-enforce the age-old hypothesis that a great team wins out over a great player.

LeBron's always been a great player, the difference between this year and years past is that this is his first time playing on a great team. Unlike his days in Cleveland, LeBron had two guys by his side he felt comfortable penciling in for 20+ a night. Oftentimes, LeBron had to manufacture points for his teammates beause there was really nobody else on those teams who could consistently create for themselves. Even the best players only control 20-25% of the action on the court, if that. Anybody who has the nerve to assess the Cavs-Magic 2009 series (in which LBJ averaged 38-8-8 on 49% shooting) and claim that LeBron played like anything less than a champion deserves to have their analyist hat revoked, period. Even during the 2010 Boston series, when people claimed he quit, LeBron put fourth some heroic efforts. These were instances of LeBron's teammates failing him in the aspects of the game he could not control. I don't think there has ever been an example in which a team who was thoroughly outclassed at three of the five positions (like Cleveland was against Boston in 2010) managed to win the series. Yet, people still condemn him for leaving Cleveland and putting himself in a better position to win a ring.

Kobe Bryant, arguably one of the ten greatest to ever play the game, wouldn't have had enough around him to get past the second round on some of those Cleveland teams, in my opinion. It's a testament to LeBron's overall body of greatness that he managed to haul a shoddy supporting cast at best to two eastern conference finals and an NBA finals appearance.
In regards to Harden, one bad series isn't enough to completely minimize my opinion of him as a player. He hasn't been consistent enough to be labeled one of the best 20-25 players in the league, but at age 22, he's shown enough flashes of greatness to be fairly considered a max contract type player.

I'll say it again: he was already great. No one said he wasn't. But he needed a ring to be considered among the the very top (possibly even GOAT by the time he's all said and done).

There was a difference in the level of his play, starting with game 4 of the Indy series. That's when, imo, he achieved that next level. He found the mental toughness, drive and willingness to do whatever it takes (and knowing what it is that needed doing) to sustain and prevail consistently, every night. He faded in the 4th of game 1, and that's the only time they lost in the Finals. I think it's silly to say that he's been doing it all along with different results, when that's not the been case--at least not consistently, all game, every game. No one ever doubted his physical ability, but his head wasn't always there. Now it is. He played and defended almost every position in this series, and he excelled at all of them. He deserves to considered among the best of the best, because now he is.

 

[Scoe]

I think its safe to put Lebron in the top 10 of all time now, in order to be top 5 he needs to win multiple championships heres my top 5 of all time

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Russell

 

[superjohn]

Haha, yes Harden has no right, brain fart.

 

[tzznandrew]

I think its safe to put Lebron in the top 10 of all time now, in order to be top 5 he needs to win multiple championships heres my top 5 of all time

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Russell

Thank you for not having Kobe there...

I pretty much agree with this list of all-time greats.

 

[champs99and04]

I'll say it again: he was already great. No one said he wasn't. But he needed a ring to be considered among the the very top (possibly even GOAT by the time he's all said and done).

There was a difference in the level of his play, starting with game 4 of the Indy series. That's when, imo, he achieved that next level. He found the mental toughness, drive and willingness to do whatever it takes (and knowing what it is that needed doing) to sustain and prevail consistently, every night. He faded in the 4th of game 1, and that's the only time they lost in the Finals. I think it's silly to say that he's been doing it all along with different results, when that's not the been case--at least not consistently, all game, every game. No one ever doubted his physical ability, but his head wasn't always there. Now it is. He played and defended almost every position in this series, and he excelled at all of them. He deserves to considered among the best of the best, because now he is.

That's where I disagree, though. Did LeBron display any less toughness/drive/willingness to do whatever it took to win when he was putting up 39/8/8 in the Magic seies a few years ago? Was he not consistent enough to win a ring in 2009 when he averaged 35/9/7 on 51% shooting throughout an entire postseason? Did he want to win any less when he was scoring 29 of the final 30 points against Detroit in 2007, or when he was going 1 on 3 against three hall of famers in 2008, or when he put up a 26, 18, and 10 against Boston in an elimination game in 2010?

I'm sure my opinion differs from many others, but I don't think legends are legends because they win rings. They win rings naturally as a product of being legends. If LeBron never won a ring, it wouldn't have made him any less great - it would have made him a historical anoymaly among legends.

 

[tzznandrew]

That's where I disagree, though. Did LeBron display any less toughness/drive/willingness to do whatever it took to win when he was putting up 39/8/8 in the Magic seies a few years ago? Was he not consistent enough to win a ring in 2009 when he averaged 35/9/7 on 51% shooting throughout an entire postseason? Did he want to win any less when he was scoring 29 of the final 30 points against Detroit in 2007, or when he was going 1 on 3 against three hall of famers in 2008, or when he put up a 26, 18, and 10 against Boston in an elimination game in 2010?

I'm sure my opinion differs from many others, but I don't think legends are legends because they win rings. They win rings naturally as a product of being legends. If LeBron never won a ring, it wouldn't have made him any less great - it would have made him a historical anoymaly among legends.

I more or less agree. He would have gone down as an all-time great no matter what.

BUT, I do think that you don't want to go down as the great one that didn't win a title. Peyton Manning is an all time great no matter what, but I'm sure he slept better after winning a title. Dan Marino is undoubtably one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, but...

 

[Huskies4ever]

Has no left hand... lol... I'll assume you mean right since he is LEFT HANDED.

I don't like the Ginobili reference, who is much more finesse. I really think the more apt comparison is a smaller more athletic Paul Pierce. And he's 22, so i think it is fair to say he will only get better.

He's going to be a top 20 offensive player for a long time, people need to not overreact to a 22 year old getting tight in his first finals series. Do you not remember what he did(again, at 22) to the spurs?

C'mon folks, perspective please

Good point. Remember what Lebron did in his first finals against Dallas?

 

[Huskies4ever]

Yet, people still condemn him for leaving Cleveland and putting himself in a better position to win a ring.

I think it's more the fact that he's the Chosen One. King James. He had to form a Mini Dream Team to win a title. Could you imagine Michael Jordan (before his first title) joining Magic and the Lakers? Look at the many All-Time Greats from the '80's-'90's that didn't win a title (Stockton, Malone, Miller, Ewing, Barkley) to name a few. Hell, there was talk of Reggie Miller coming out of retirement and joining the '07-'08 Celtics for his first title. LeBron's gonna be viewed as taking the easy way out. I'm not diminishing his greatness, but that is how many people perceive him. That, and the fact that The Decision turned a lot of people off. Those are the reasons people condemn him.

 

[champs99and04]

I more or less agree. He would have gone down as an all-time great no matter what.

BUT, I do think that you don't want to go down as the great one that didn't win a title. Peyton Manning is an all time great no matter what, but I'm sure he slept better after winning a title. Dan Marino is undoubtably one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, but...

I can agree with that. Fairly or unfairly, there is always going to be that "yeah, but" next to the guys who never won a ring. You don't want to be that guy

 

[champs99and04]

I think it's more the fact that he's the Chosen One. King James. He had to form a Mini Dream Team to win a title. Could you imagine Michael Jordan (before his first title) joining Magic and the Lakers? Look at the many All-Time Greats from the '80's-'90's that didn't win a title (Stockton, Malone, Miller, Ewing, Barkley) to name a few. Hell, there was talk of Reggie Miller coming out of retirement and joining the '07-'08 Celtics for his first title. LeBron's gonna be viewed as taking the easy way out. I'm not diminishing his greatness, but that is how many people perceive him. That, and the fact that The Decision turned a lot of people off. Those are the reasons people condemn him.

People are going to have their opinions on LeBron and there isn't a lot you or I can do to change those opinions. However, relative to some of his athletic counter-parts who have committed far more egregious sins, LeBron's mis-steps seem trivial at worst in the grand scheme of things.

As for hammering Bron for "taking the easy way out", well, those people just need to do some more research in my opinion. Remember, LeBron played without Chris Bosh for the second round and the majority of the conference finals. Dwyane Wade was also mysteriously absent during some crucial moments along the way, and was probably playing 75-80% at best. Chalmers, Battier, Miller, Haslem, etc. were incredibly streaky -- you had no idea what to expect from any of them game in game out until Battier managed to find the fountain of youth at the tail end of the Boston series. Indiana, Boston, and Oklahoma City were all more complete teams than Miami. It was LeBron's greatness that pushed the Heat over the top.

 

[Huskies4ever]

People are going to have their opinions on LeBron and there isn't a lot you or I can do to change those opinions. However, relative to some of his athletic counter-parts who have committed far more egregious sins, LeBron's mis-steps seem trivial at worst in the grand scheme of things.

As for hammering Bron for "taking the easy way out", well, those people just need to do some more research in my opinion. Remember, LeBron played without Chris Bosh for the second round and the majority of the conference finals. Dwyane Wade was also mysteriously absent during some crucial moments along the way, and was probably playing 75-80% at best. Chalmers, Battier, Miller, Haslem, etc. were incredibly streaky -- you had no idea what to expect from any of them game in game out until Battier managed to find the fountain of youth at the tail end of the Boston series. Indiana, Boston, and Oklahoma City were all more complete teams than Miami. It was LeBron's greatness that pushed the Heat over the top.

Didn't say he was caught with drugs or assaulted anyone, just the way he will be viewed in the circle of public opinion. "Yeah, but he didn't allow the Cavs to form a worthy team around him. He just formed an All-Star Team himself." Maybe he told the Cavs front office a million times, " Please surround me with better players." I think LeBron is an amazing basketball player with abilities that very few have had throughout the course of time. He is an All-Time Great. I would have rather seen him stick with Cleveland than bail on them when the going got tough. Like I used as an example, did Jordan join Magic and the Lakers before his first title to win a title? LeBron is amazing. He took the easy way out. He's good enough to have led a lesser team to a title. But he chose not to.

 

[Huskies4ever]

As for hammering Bron for "taking the easy way out", well, those people just need to do some more research in my opinion. Remember, LeBron played without Chris Bosh for the second round and the majority of the conference finals. Dwyane Wade was also mysteriously absent during some crucial moments along the way, and was probably playing 75-80% at best. Chalmers, Battier, Miller, Haslem, etc. were incredibly streaky -- you had no idea what to expect from any of them game in game out until Battier managed to find the fountain of youth at the tail end of the Boston series. Indiana, Boston, and Oklahoma City were all more complete teams than Miami. It was LeBron's greatness that pushed the Heat over the top.

The Miami Heat were more talented than 98% of the teams in the league no matter how healthy they were. I give them credit for how they played without Bosh and with a less- than hundred percent Wade, but they were a far better team than anyone in the Eastern Conference. I give the Celtics a ton of credit for pushing the series to 7 games. Didn't expect it to get beyond 5. I'm not questioning James' greatness, just that he needed to surround it with two other top 15 players to win a title.

 

[champs99and04]

Didn't say he was caught with drugs or assaulted anyone, just the way he will be viewed in the circle of public opinion. "Yeah, but he didn't allow the Cavs to form a worthy team around him. He just formed an All-Star Team himself." Maybe he told the Cavs front office a million times, " Please surround me with better players." I think LeBron is an amazing basketball player with abilities that very few have had throughout the course of time. He is an All-Time Great. I would have rather seen him stick with Cleveland than bail on them when the going got tough. Like I used as an example, did Jordan join Magic and the Lakers before his first title to win a title? LeBron is amazing. He took the easy way out. He's good enough to have led a lesser team to a title. But he chose not to.

I understand people are naturally going to draw comparisons to what Jordan would have done, but it's really not the best example. Not only was there a lack of talent on those Cleveland teams, but their cap space was tied up for the short term as well, which would have made it difficult to win a championship in 2011 or 2012, which was ultimately LeBron's #1 priority. People love to hammer LeBron for not committing there long term, but let's be real, he gave Cleveland seven years of his career and their front office was never able to find him a reliable second and third option. It was unrealistic to ask LeBron to compete with teams like the Celtics and Lakers when their second leading scorer was Mo Williams, somebody who is currently a mere role player on a decent Clippers team.

It's impossible to say what Jordan would have done if he was placed in LeBron's predicament. Considering how competitive he was, I certainly wouldn't have put it past him to flock to greener pastures in pursuit of a ring. Magic played with multiple hall of famers from the day he entered the league to the day he left. Again, not the best comparison. If LeBron had teamed up with Boston or L.A., the two powerhouses at the league at the time of his decision, you may have had a point. It made a lot of sense in my mind to join forces with two other all-star players who were dealing with similar issues themselves in an attempt to dethrone the Lakers and Celtics of the world.

Another poster made this point earlier, but 99% of the teams that win the championship in the NBA have equal, if not more talent than anybody else in the league. The Heat were no different in this regard. Do you think MJ used to say to himself, "you know, it's unfair that I'm on a team with this much talent. I'm going to join a less talented team to challenge myself"?

 

[traitor71]

"Yeah, but he didn't allow the Cavs to form a worthy team around him. He just formed an All-Star Team himself."

How many years should he have given that loser organization to build said team?

 

[8893]

That's where I disagree, though. Did LeBron display any less toughness/drive/willingness to do whatever it took to win when he was putting up 39/8/8 in the Magic seies a few years ago? Was he not consistent enough to win a ring in 2009 when he averaged 35/9/7 on 51% shooting throughout an entire postseason? Did he want to win any less when he was scoring 29 of the final 30 points against Detroit in 2007, or when he was going 1 on 3 against three hall of famers in 2008, or when he put up a 26, 18, and 10 against Boston in an elimination game in 2010?

I'm sure my opinion differs from many others, but I don't think legends are legends because they win rings. They win rings naturally as a product of being legends. If LeBron never won a ring, it wouldn't have made him any less great - it would have made him a historical anoymaly among legends.

You missed the "and knowing what it is that needed doing" part. This was his best Finals performance by any measure. Not coincidentally, it also led to his first ring. For these last four games in particular, it seemed his timing was impeccable: score when needed to score; pass when needed to pass; defend at key spots. He led and did what needed doing, when it needed doing. You can't tell me that Cleveland didn't have players at least as talented as Battier, Miller or Chalmers around him; while streaky, for the most part these guys only had the ball in the Finals when they were hot. And for the most part, it was LeBron getting them the ball at the right time, in the right position. In addition to his own timely scoring, that's the type of stuff I'm talking about. He mood was different this time; even he admits it--as do the others around him. Where your opinion differs from mine is that you think the analysis is limited to statistics, without relation to timing.

 

[Huskies4ever]

How many years should he have given that loser organization to build said team?

3 more? I don't know, loyalty? He could have asked for a sign and trade without leaving Cleveland with nothing, and doing it by not letting them know he was leaving until The Decision.

 

[Huskies4ever]

I understand people are naturally going to draw comparisons to what Jordan would have done, but it's really not the best example. Not only was there a lack of talent on those Cleveland teams, but their cap space was tied up for the short term as well, which would have made it difficult to win a championship in 2011 or 2012, which was ultimately LeBron's #1 priority. People love to hammer LeBron for not committing there long term, but let's be real, he gave Cleveland seven years of his career and their front office was never able to find him a reliable second and third option. It was unrealistic to ask LeBron to compete with teams like the Celtics and Lakers when their second leading scorer was Mo Williams, somebody who is currently a mere role player on a decent Clippers team.

It's impossible to say what Jordan would have done if he was placed in LeBron's predicament. Considering how competitive he was, I certainly wouldn't have put it past him to flock to greener pastures in pursuit of a ring. Magic played with multiple hall of famers from the day he entered the league to the day he left. Again, not the best comparison. If LeBron had teamed up with Boston or L.A., the two powerhouses at the league at the time of his decision, you may have had a point. It made a lot of sense in my mind to join forces with two other all-star players who were dealing with similar issues themselves in an attempt to dethrone the Lakers and Celtics of the world.

Another poster made this point earlier, but 99% of the teams that win the championship in the NBA have equal, if not more talent than anybody else in the league. The Heat were no different in this regard. Do you think MJ used to say to himself, "you know, it's unfair that I'm on a team with this much talent. I'm going to join a less talented team to challenge myself"?

I respect your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree. LeBron's move, the way he left Cleveland, left him open to criticism. He became the villain to a lot of people. I'm not questioning his greatness, he's an amazing basketball player and I love his game. I'm questioning the shortcut he took to his first title and the way he conducted himself in this regard. I hope for his sake, he wins seven or eight titles, or how ever many he proclaimed the Heat would win.

 

[champs99and04]

You missed the "and knowing what it is that needed doing" part. This was his best Finals performance by any measure. Not coincidentally, it also led to his first ring. For these last four games in particular, it seemed his timing was impeccable: score when needed to score; pass when needed to pass; defend at key spots. He led and did what needed doing, when it needed doing. You can't tell me that Cleveland didn't have players at least as talented as Battier, Miller or Chalmers around him; while streaky, for the most part these guys only had the ball in the Finals when they were hot. And for the most part, it was LeBron getting them the ball at the right time, in the right position. In addition to his own timely scoring, that's the type of stuff I'm talking about. He mood was different this time; even he admits it--as do the others around him. Where your opinion differs from mine is that you think the analysis is limited to statistics, without relation to timing.

I understand that there is more to the game than what is presented in a box score, it's just difficult to quantify and disprove vague statements like, "he scored when he needed to score". He certainly played exponentially better than he did in his previous two finals, I'm not denying that. But how are we to be sure that LeBron wouldn't have continued to perform at a high level had his supporting cast been up to par in any of the previous years before he arrived in Miami? I realize it's a results oriented buisness, but the media driven fairy tale ending isn't always reality.

Look at it this way: How would the general public view LeBron right now if Miami had lost to Boston in the conference finals? Something tells me media members and NBA fans would be demeaning his career and taking issue with what he failed to do in the series. And, in my opinion, the Heat would lost to Boston in game seven had Chris Bosh not returned from his injury, and you would have had people making the same exact statements as they were last year, and the year before, and the year before, whether it was warranted or not. So I guess it's a fair stance to take if you believe LeBron reached his peak as a player in this postseason, or fulfilled some sort of prophecy, but without the Bosh's and Wade's of the world, it's going to be very difficult to get over the hump regardless of how well you play.

 

[champs99and04]

I respect your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree. LeBron's move, the way he left Cleveland, left him open to criticism. He became the villain to a lot of people. I'm not questioning his greatness, he's an amazing basketball player and I love his game. I'm questioning the shortcut he took to his first title and the way he conducted himself in this regard. I hope for his sake, he wins seven or eight titles, or how ever many he proclaimed the Heat would win.

Ok, fair enough.

 

[babysheep]

Imagine if LeBron was accused of something actually malicious like rape like Kobe and Rothlisberger were, as opposed to just hurting a bunch of people's delicate feelings.

Oh and as if one guy has ever carried a team through an entire championship. We all know Jordan doesn't win as many championships without Pippen.

 

[traitor71]

3 more? I don't know, loyalty? He could have asked for a sign and trade without leaving Cleveland with nothing, and doing it by not letting them know he was leaving until The Decision.

Loyalty? They paid him and he played. That's how it works in sports and in life as well. Sometimes you have to know when to jump to a better situation, a better company, a better organization. The guy had a chance to go with a proven winner in Riley as opposed to sticking with a helpless organization that was never going to get it done. You can dislike the way he went about it, but leaving Cleveland was a no brainer

 

[babysheep]