So, with Geno as #1 WCBB Coach...

[PoppaBear]

Regarding Tara, I like to play this thought game.

Imagine an alternative universe in which neither Geno nor Pat were ever born. Hold everything else constant.

Who would be considered the greatest WCBB coach of all time?

Tara.

Leon Barmore

 

[bballnut90]

Regarding Tara, I like to play this thought game.

Imagine an alternative universe in which neither Geno nor Pat were ever born. Hold everything else constant.

Who would be considered the greatest WCBB coach of all time?

Tara.

Tara or Muffet. Take out Pat and Geno from 1995-present and here's my best guess for number of titles distributed:

1995-honestly probably Virginia based on performance vs. Tennessee/Connecticut. Outside shot for Georgia and Stanford.

1996-Georgia or Virginia

1997-Old Dominion

1998-La Tech or UNC

2000-Penn State or Rutgers

2002-Oklahoma

2003-Duke or Texas

2004-Minnesota or Penn State

2007-UNC or Rutgers

2008-LSU or Stanford

2009-Stanford

2010-Stanford

2013-Notre Dame

2014-Notre Dame

2015-Notre Dame

2016-Oregon State


Both Tara and Muffet probably have around 5 titles without Tennessee or Connecticut in the fold if you take out their programs (players included).

Honestly though, I think the biggest difference maker would be who lands the marquee recruits who led Tennessee and UCONN to titles. Pat and Geno dominated the recruiting scene for a good 15 year stretch.

If you put DT, Maya, Parker, Stewart and Holdsclaw at different programs, that drastically changes the landscape of WCBB. Other marquee players like Tamika Catchings, Moriah Jefferson, Sue Bird, and Tina Charles are all going to different schools too. I'm not sure any of them have considered Stanford or Notre Dame as finalists.

Plus, if Parker (and Moore) chose Duke over UT/UCONN, GG probably stays and wins a title (or several) and possibly creates a dynasty there. Outcomes would be impossible to predict but sure are fun to think about.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Note how I said current coach, not all time. Anyone who wins consecutive championships would have a strong argument for being at the top of their profession during that time frame.

If you're going to restrict the list to those teams that have repeated as champions, I'm not sure you're going to differentiate much. Since the NCAA tournament began in 1982 only 3 programs have repeated as champions.

Southern Cal, once, 1984
Tennessee, 3 times, 1997, 1998, 2008
Connecticut, 6 times, 2003, 2004, 2010, 2014, 2015, 2016

 

[Gus Mahler]

Outcomes would be impossible to predict but sure are fun to think about.

Agreed, fun to think about.

 

[DefenseBB]

so where is the Poll?

Damn! I didn't even think of that. That would have been interesting...

 

[j66kicker]

If you're going to restrict the list to those teams that have repeated as champions, I'm not sure you're going to differentiate much. Since the NCAA tournament began in 1982 only 3 programs have repeated as champions.

Southern Cal, once, 1984
Tennessee, 3 times, 1997, 1998, 2008
Connecticut, 6 times, 2003, 2004, 2010, 2014, 2015, 2016

That's all you need to know. Everything else is just pickin' the flysh*t outta the pepper.

 

[meyers7]

You guys are funny. Arguing over Mulkey and Muffett and Tara. HA! You've completely skipped over Holly and Coach Jumper.

 

[Dillon77]

I respect MM a great deal as a basketball coach. She seems to be especially good at strategy/game planning. What stands out to me is in-game adjustments.

I hearken back to the E8 game against Oregon two or three years ago. ND was rather stagnant all through the first half and was simply not clicking. But they came out of the locker room and owned the third quarter, turning the game around. Very impressive. I have to think MM had something to do with it beyond a Knute Rockne speech.

I remember that well, too; perhaps my favorite of the games the Irish played in that tournament. ND did, indeed, come back from a 6-pt. deficit and outscored Oregon 21-9 in the 3rd. ND started group rebounding, with Young grabbing 13 rebounds from her wing position and Mabrey also getting 7 rebounds, to go along with Shepard's 9 rebounds. On offense, ND started pushing hard on the fast break and had lots of weakside movement in half-court sets. This resulted in Kat Westbeld, normally the Irish "glue player" getting space -- which she filled -- and she led the team with 20 points on an assortment of layups, short jumps and jump hooks. McGwire and/or Sabally were not checking the gate there.

 

[asuwish]

“Not even close”? Are you kidding? You can place MM ahead of her if you want (and it can be justified based on criteria) but Mulkey certainly has dominated her conference more than anyone this side of Geno, she has regularly been in top teams discussions since she became a head coach (2000) having won titles 2005, 2012 and 2019. With 3 very disparate teams. Has she underachieved at times, yes but so has MM and Geno AND TARA. Tara’s been a head coach since 1978 and only won 2 tiles with Jen Azzi 1990/1992 so while she too has been in many Final Fours, she’s noticeably lacking in titles for 27 years! MM has seen her recruiting tail off dramatically since Jackie Young and has a pretty thin cupboard now and nothing noticeably top notch on the horizon. Your view of “ducking” aside, Kim’s near term success is more anticipated than MM. Now Tara has oogles of talent on this team but also has a much harder conference than ever. Not sure I see a title in her near term future but that’s why they play the games. Mulkey IS closer to them if not past them now is my point.

MM Has a top 5 player and a top 15 player coming in this year. I don't think she's washed up yet. Tara has a great class coming in this year and verbals from a top 5 player each of the next 2 years. Who cares about the conference Stanford will be a final four and title contender in the very near future. Kim is loaded but roles minutes and outside shooting will determine how many more banners hang in Waco. Saying Kim is better than Geno is like saying Beyonce is better then the Beatles - impossible!

 

[SECbbfan24]

Kim is not better than Geno. Anyone arguing that point can't be taken seriously. That said she is among the top tier and is a great coach. There are lots of things you could nitpick from when comparing Kim, Tara, and MM. She is one of the top coaches out there but I do feel over the years her teams lacked that killer instinct and did not win many games in elite 8's that they should have won. Kim does have 3 titles which is impressive. I would like to see more final four appearances from her though. She certainly has the opportunity to make some runs over the next couple years with the talent in Waco, although talent is never much an issue, she is a great recruiter.

 

[DefenseBB]

We periodically have these types of discussions that bubble up many good points and opinions that should create thought and dialogue, which is what my intent of this thread was. I am at a loss as to how to assess the multiple Elite 8's and Final Fours of Tara and MM given they only have 2 titles each. There is a "You have to be in to win it" aspect that is laudable. Even if we decry Kim's lack of regular FF's her 3 titles in 14 years in 19 years of coaching is laudable. She certainly is a great recruiter and to bemoan her lack of coaching is a disservice to her as she certainly runs circles around Karen Aston, Brenda Freese, Holly Warlick who all have recruited as well if not better during these past few years. Tara has been hot and cold in recruiting, and she's hot right now but I think this years squad is too young and inexperienced to compete for a Final Four. Heck she might be 3rd or 4th in her conference given what OU, OSU and UCLA have returning.
What's interesting to me is no mention of the SC Gamecock crew. Personally, I think Dawn is a tad overrated as a coach. While she's made 2 Final Fours, she probably should have made a few more, she has regularly recruited well since that first Aja Wilson class of stars, yet transfers abound and periodic dissention occur.
Also interesting is to see how Vic Schaefer handles life without McCowan. Maybe he thinks if he has 4/5 bigs, one will develop like Big T did.
Ok, the thread convinced me that
1. Geno
2. MM
3. Kiim
4. Tara
5. Dawn
6. Kelly Graves (yes, I selected him over Vic! but it was close and based on what Kelly did at Gonzago)
7. Vic
8. Jeff
9. Brenda (and it pains me to put her here)
10. Gary Blair (I think he wins the SEC this year!)

Have at it and tell me why I am wrong (as you always do and I appreciate it!)

 

[jumpstart]

We periodically have these types of discussions that bubble up many good points and opinions that should create thought and dialogue, which is what my intent of this thread was. I am at a loss as to how to assess the multiple Elite 8's and Final Fours of Tara and MM given they only have 2 titles each. There is a "You have to be in to win it" aspect that is laudable. Even if we decry Kim's lack of regular FF's her 3 titles in 14 years in 19 years of coaching is laudable. She certainly is a great recruiter and to bemoan her lack of coaching is a disservice to her as she certainly runs circles around Karen Aston, Brenda Freese, Holly Warlick who all have recruited as well if not better during these past few years. Tara has been hot and cold in recruiting, and she's hot right now but I think this years squad is too young and inexperienced to compete for a Final Four. Heck she might be 3rd or 4th in her conference given what OU, OSU and UCLA have returning.
What's interesting to me is no mention of the SC Gamecock crew. Personally, I think Dawn is a tad overrated as a coach. While she's made 2 Final Fours, she probably should have made a few more, she has regularly recruited well since that first Aja Wilson class of stars, yet transfers abound and periodic dissention occur.
Also interesting is to see how Vic Schaefer handles life without McCowan. Maybe he thinks if he has 4/5 bigs, one will develop like Big T did.
Ok, the thread convinced me that
1. Geno
2. MM
3. Kiim
4. Tara
5. Dawn
6. Kelly Graves (yes, I selected him over Vic! but it was close and based on what Kelly did at Gonzago)
7. Vic
8. Jeff
9. Brenda (and it pains me to put her here)
10. Gary Blair (I think he wins the SEC this year!)

Have at it and tell me why I am wrong (as you always do and I appreciate it!)

I totally disagree with your assessment of Dawn. She had one great class (before 2019) and it was rated No.2 behind a UCLA team that never lived up to it's billing. Dawn has had Final Fours based on the one year and a National Championship that had transfers to come in and blend with remains of that class. She had several Top 10-25 classes but her record actually matched or exceeded the talent she brought in. I think she has proved that she can coach Final Four teams with mix-matched combinations of players. I won't disagree with your rankings...just your assessment of Staley.

 

[diggerfoot]

We periodically have these types of discussions that bubble up many good points and opinions that should create thought and dialogue, which is what my intent of this thread was. I am at a loss as to how to assess the multiple Elite 8's and Final Fours of Tara and MM given they only have 2 titles each. There is a "You have to be in to win it" aspect that is laudable. Even if we decry Kim's lack of regular FF's her 3 titles in 14 years in 19 years of coaching is laudable. She certainly is a great recruiter and to bemoan her lack of coaching is a disservice to her as she certainly runs circles around Karen Aston, Brenda Freese, Holly Warlick who all have recruited as well if not better during these past few years. Tara has been hot and cold in recruiting, and she's hot right now but I think this years squad is too young and inexperienced to compete for a Final Four. Heck she might be 3rd or 4th in her conference given what OU, OSU and UCLA have returning.
What's interesting to me is no mention of the SC Gamecock crew. Personally, I think Dawn is a tad overrated as a coach. While she's made 2 Final Fours, she probably should have made a few more, she has regularly recruited well since that first Aja Wilson class of stars, yet transfers abound and periodic dissention occur.
Also interesting is to see how Vic Schaefer handles life without McCowan. Maybe he thinks if he has 4/5 bigs, one will develop like Big T did.
Ok, the thread convinced me that
1. Geno
2. MM
3. Kiim
4. Tara
5. Dawn
6. Kelly Graves (yes, I selected him over Vic! but it was close and based on what Kelly did at Gonzago)
7. Vic
8. Jeff
9. Brenda (and it pains me to put her here)
10. Gary Blair (I think he wins the SEC this year!)

Have at it and tell me why I am wrong (as you always do and I appreciate it!)

I would also defend Staley as deserving top ten status, and perhaps Wes Moore. What I would substitute out from that list is Graves and Schaeffer, because their legacies are still in their formation. I would add Rueck and Banghart as well to that latter category. I am not disagreeing with how you are ranking them as is, only that their is more to their stories to take shape and influence how that ends up. So the top ten are from more or less contemporaries of Auriemma and Banghart, et al represent a new wave that could end up anywhere on that top ten, or not, depending how things go.

 

[bbsamjj]

So this idea that Kim Mulkey "only" won 1 championship with Griner is interesting, because it assumes that great players automatically lead to championships.

If you look at Griner's four years at Baylor, here's how the team finished:

Freshman year: FINAL FOUR, loses in semis to National Champion UConn (with Moore and Charles)
Sophomore year: ELITE EIGHT, loses to National Champion Texas A&M
Junior year: NATIONAL TITLE
Senior year: Sweet 16 loss to Louisville

I think it's safe to say that her frosh and junior years, the team probably went as far as it could go. Sophomore year was tough--Baylor had beaten A&M three times already in the regular season, and it was kind of a shaft to have to play them again in the Elite 8 with a team so familiar with them and no pressure, that also obviously got hot at the right time and took it all the way to the championship. Senior year is fair--one of the bigger upsets in NCAA tournament history (up with Duke beating Holdsclaw her senior year).

But who are the other players at Griner's level, and how did they do in college?
--Stewart (4 titles in four years)
--Taurasi (3 titles in four years)
--Holdsclaw (3 titles in four years)
--Moore (2 titles in four years)
--Charles (2 titles in four years)
--Parker (2 titles in three years)
--Bird (2 titles in four years--though lost her freshmen season to injury)
--Catchings (1 title in four years, though lost her senior season to injury half way through)

And players who never won titles: Augustus (3 final fours), Fowles (4 final fours), Nneka (4 final fours), and of course EDD, Angel, Cappie, Skylar and more.

I only included contemporaries, and not greats like Cheryl Miller, Swoopes, Leslie, Staley, etc.

 

[Urshurak]

I'd put Muffet over Kim right now, after this season who knows. If Kim wins back to back titles, she arguably supplants anyone (including Geno) as #1 current coach in the country.

I imagine Muffet isn't sitting on her tuffet watching the recruits go by. But either of them over Geno. No, not for a while.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

IMHO the ranking of Division I coaches should be:
1. Geno
2. Geno
3. Geno - So far above any other coach they're not even in the ballpark!
4. Geno
5. Geno
6. Geno
7. Geno
8. Geno
9. Geno
10. Geno
11. Tara - When she is given time to prepare she has shown her teams can play with anyone!
12. Vic - Has shown he is one of the brightest defensive minds and game coach in Division I
13. Kelly Graves - Through his work at Gonzaga and Oregon he is earning respect
14. Jeff - A great BB mind that could become the next hot team
15. Kim - A great recruiter who lets her emotions run away with her during BIG games
16. Gary Blair - lulls you to sleep with his "aw shucks drawl" but this dog can hunt!
-----------------------------------------------------
17. MM - I have no respect for The Muffett! With her crying for respect and reality check, her 2001 NCAA championship Geno's temper and injuries to Shea & Svet gave her and the most recent one a basket by a hot shooter with 1 second left could have gone either way! UCONN led late!
18. Dawn - Thanks the Good Lord every night that Shafer & Miss St. upset UCONN because no way in Hades SoCar beats UCONN if they'd played in the final!
19. Brenda - Owes her 2006 Championship to having Jeff W. as her head asst. coach.

Just my 2 cents worth! Neither right nor wrong, just how I look at this!

 

[Gus Mahler]

I remember that well, too; perhaps my favorite of the games the Irish played in that tournament. ND did, indeed, come back from a 6-pt. deficit and outscored Oregon 21-9 in the 3rd. ND started group rebounding, with Young grabbing 13 rebounds from her wing position and Mabrey also getting 7 rebounds, to go along with Shepard's 9 rebounds. On offense, ND started pushing hard on the fast break and had lots of weakside movement in half-court sets. This resulted in Kat Westbeld, normally the Irish "glue player" getting space -- which she filled -- and she led the team with 20 points on an assortment of layups, short jumps and jump hooks. McGwire and/or Sabally were not checking the gate there.

Kudos to Kat, my all-time favorite ND player. I hope she is pain free and doing well.

 

[Dillon77]

Kudos to Kat, my all-time favorite ND player. I hope she is pain free and doing well.

After graduating last year, she played in a league in Puerto Rico during the summer/early fall. This may have helped her procure a contract into playing for a team in the Spanish league (excuse me for not checking this one, I'm out the door to vacation. She got progressively better as the season went on. We'll see what this season brings. BTW, I'd love to see if the apple has not fallen far from the tree and get her younger sister, Maddy, to also attend ND.

 

[Fightin Choke]

IMHO the ranking of Division I coaches should be:
1. Geno
2. Geno
3. Geno - So far above any other coach they're not even in the ballpark!
4. Geno
5. Geno
6. Geno
7. Geno
8. Geno
9. Geno
10. Geno
11. Tara - When she is given time to prepare she has shown her teams can play with anyone!
12. Vic - Has shown he is one of the brightest defensive minds and game coach in Division I
13. Kelly Graves - Through his work at Gonzaga and Oregon he is earning respect
14. Jeff - A great BB mind that could become the next hot team
15. Kim - A great recruiter who lets her emotions run away with her during BIG games
16. Gary Blair - lulls you to sleep with his "aw shucks drawl" but this dog can hunt!
-----------------------------------------------------
17. MM - I have no respect for The Muffett! With her crying for respect and reality check, her 2001 NCAA championship Geno's temper and injuries to Shea & Svet gave her and the most recent one a basket by a hot shooter with 1 second left could have gone either way! UCONN led late!
18. Dawn - Thanks the Good Lord every night that Shafer & Miss St. upset UCONN because no way in Hades SoCar beats UCONN if they'd played in the final!
19. Brenda - Owes her 2006 Championship to having Jeff W. as her head asst. coach.

Just my 2 cents worth! Neither right nor wrong, just how I look at this!

I agree that it's just how you look at this, but you're so, so much closer to wrong than right on this. I get that you hate Muffet, but how can you have her as the 7th best current coach (behind Vic, Graves, Walz and Blair)? What criteria are you including? For example, have you looked at Jeff's record vs. Muffet? His tournament success?

 

[eebmg]

I agree that it's just how you look at this, but you're so, so much closer to wrong than right on this. I get that you hate Muffet, but how can you have her as the 7th best current coach (behind Vic, Graves, Walz and Blair)? What criteria are you including? For example, have you looked at Jeff's record vs. Muffet? His tournament success?

Criteria? First names.

 

[chrissaran]

I'd put Muffet over Kim right now, after this season who knows. If Kim wins back to back titles, she arguably supplants anyone (including Geno) as #1 current coach in the country.

There is no way if Baylor wins this year that Kim is better than Geno. She had Griner and Sims together for 3 years and won only one title.

 

[bballnut90]

There is no way if Baylor wins this year that Kim is better than Geno. She had Griner and Sims together for 3 years and won only one title.

Based on the job she did a year ago, she's a much better coach now than she was then. I'm not saying she's a better coach than Geno or that she's accomplished more, just that if she wins back to back titles, she has a pretty good claim of being at the top of her profession over anyone else.

 

[bballnut90]

So this idea that Kim Mulkey "only" won 1 championship with Griner is interesting, because it assumes that great players automatically lead to championships.

If you look at Griner's four years at Baylor, here's how the team finished:

Freshman year: FINAL FOUR, loses in semis to National Champion UConn (with Moore and Charles)
Sophomore year: ELITE EIGHT, loses to National Champion Texas A&M
Junior year: NATIONAL TITLE
Senior year: Sweet 16 loss to Louisville

I think it's safe to say that her frosh and junior years, the team probably went as far as it could go. Sophomore year was tough--Baylor had beaten A&M three times already in the regular season, and it was kind of a shaft to have to play them again in the Elite 8 with a team so familiar with them and no pressure, that also obviously got hot at the right time and took it all the way to the championship. Senior year is fair--one of the bigger upsets in NCAA tournament history (up with Duke beating Holdsclaw her senior year).

But who are the other players at Griner's level, and how did they do in college?
--Stewart (4 titles in four years)
--Taurasi (3 titles in four years)
--Holdsclaw (3 titles in four years)
--Moore (2 titles in four years)
--Charles (2 titles in four years)
--Parker (2 titles in three years)
--Bird (2 titles in four years--though lost her freshmen season to injury)
--Catchings (1 title in four years, though lost her senior season to injury half way through)

And players who never won titles: Augustus (3 final fours), Fowles (4 final fours), Nneka (4 final fours), and of course EDD, Angel, Cappie, Skylar and more.

I only included contemporaries, and not greats like Cheryl Miller, Swoopes, Leslie, Staley, etc.

Players who change the landscape of WCBB usually do lead to multiple titles, or they're at least in the mix multiple years. You look at Tennessee/UCONN and that's the biggest reason why Pat/Geno have had the success they've had. Parker/Holdsclaw were responsible for 5/8 of Pat's titles, while Stewart, Moore and Taurasi are responsible for 9 of Geno's 11. Griner fits into that category as a game changer and should not have exited early in both 2011 and 2013.

She is the most unique physical specimen women's college basketball has ever had. No one has had her size, length, coordination and overall athleticism. In college she absolutely dominated defensively and established herself as an all time great in a very select group of players. She rewrote shot blocking and scoring records and improved immensely from being a lanky freshman to becoming a dominant offensive post as a senior.

Where her (and Kim's) legacy is tainted is that she came up short was by missing the Final Four in 2 of her last 3 seasons. She had a very talented and senior laden roster in 2013, and Baylor was the prohibitive favorite to repeat with everyone coming back from a dominant 40-0 season. The Louisville loss was such a let down because Baylor had now been upset twice in the last 3 season before the Final Four despite having a championship caliber team. Most other "greats" have come up short at some point, but they either get beat by a top tier team or at least make a deep run. Or they have multiple championships to hang their hat on. Baylor inexcusably lost to a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament during the Sweet 16 while having what should have been one of the very best teams of all time.

Griner is unquestionably an all time great player, but when ranking her on "all time" lists, it's hard to put her ahead of Tennessee/UCONN's big 5 (Parker/Holdsclaw/DT/Moore/Stewart) or Miller since she has just 1 title and came up short in 2 other years that she could've won.

This era will also be part of Kim's legacy for coming up short, which she continued to perpetuate through 2018 until she won another title this past April. She has a chance to create a new legacy with her talented 2018 class and "make up" for what she wasn't able to accomplish when she had 3 years of Sims/Griner. If she retires tomorrow she'll still go down as an all-time great, but if she can get a title streak going or make Baylor a consistent Final Four team going forward, she has a good shot to stake a convincing claim as the 3rd best coach of all time after Pat/Geno.

 

[Plebe]

Players who change the landscape of WCBB usually do lead to multiple titles, or they're at least in the mix multiple years. You look at Tennessee/UCONN and that's the biggest reason why Pat/Geno have had the success they've had. Parker/Holdsclaw were responsible for 5/8 of Pat's titles, while Stewart, Moore and Taurasi are responsible for 9 of Geno's 11. Griner fits into that category as a game changer and should not have exited early in both 2011 and 2013.

She is the most unique physical specimen women's college basketball has ever had. No one has had her size, length, coordination and overall athleticism. In college she absolutely dominated defensively and established herself as an all time great in a very select group of players. She rewrote shot blocking and scoring records and improved immensely from being a lanky freshman to becoming a dominant offensive post as a senior.

Where her (and Kim's) legacy is tainted is that she came up short was by missing the Final Four in 2 of her last 3 seasons. She had a very talented and senior laden roster in 2013, and Baylor was the prohibitive favorite to repeat with everyone coming back from a dominant 40-0 season. The Louisville loss was such a let down because Baylor had now been upset twice in the last 3 season before the Final Four despite having a championship caliber team. Most other "greats" have come up short at some point, but they either get beat by a top tier team or at least make a deep run. Or they have multiple championships to hang their hat on. Baylor inexcusably lost to a 5 seed in the NCAA tournament during the Sweet 16 while having what should have been one of the very best teams of all time.

Griner is unquestionably an all time great player, but when ranking her on "all time" lists, it's hard to put her ahead of Tennessee/UCONN's big 5 (Parker/Holdsclaw/DT/Moore/Stewart) or Miller since she has just 1 title and came up short in 2 other years that she could've won.

This era will also be part of Kim's legacy for coming up short, which she continued to perpetuate through 2018 until she won another title this past April. She has a chance to create a new legacy with her talented 2018 class and "make up" for what she wasn't able to accomplish when she had 3 years of Sims/Griner. If she retires tomorrow she'll still go down as an all-time great, but if she can get a title streak going or make Baylor a consistent Final Four team going forward, she has a good shot to stake a convincing claim as the 3rd best coach of all time after Pat/Geno.

I'm a bit more charitable to Kim for the "failure" of "only" winning one championship in the Griner era.

First of all, back-to-the-basket post players are, just by the nature of the game, much more dependent on teammates than perimeter players are. Players who can handle the ball and shoot from at least mid-range are able to take over a game by the force of their own will in a way that an interior-only player simply can't.

Also, most of the multi-championship-winning "greats" had strong supporting casts around them. Cheryl Miller was on a stacked USC team that included the McGee twins and Cynthia Cooper. Holdsclaw, Parker, Moore and Stewart were all surrounded by other great players in their championship years. Perhaps the exception was what Taurasi was able to do in carrying UConn in 2003 and 2004, but even then I think her supporting cast was stronger than Griner's was in 2011 (Strother and Turner would go on to be 2nd-round picks in 2006).

The 2013 loss to Louisville was obviously a stunner, but it was a bit of a lightning strike. Walz adopted a "puncher's chance" philosophy and successfully gambled that (1) the officials would allow overly physical play against Griner; and (2) they would bomb away from 3 and make enough of them to stay with Baylor. And outside of Griner and Sims, Baylor really wasn't terribly talented. Yes, they were senior-laden and experienced, but of the supporting cast of Pope, Williams, Madden and Hayden, I believe only Pope (in the 3rd round) was taken in the draft.

 

[bballnut90]

I'm a bit more charitable to Kim for the "failure" of "only" winning one championship in the Griner era.

First of all, back-to-the-basket post players are, just by the nature of the game, much more dependent on teammates than perimeter players are. Players who can handle the ball and shoot from at least mid-range are able to take over a game by the force of their own will in a way that an interior-only player simply can't.

Also, most of the multi-championship-winning "greats" had strong supporting casts around them. Cheryl Miller was on a stacked USC team that included the McGee twins and Cynthia Cooper. Perhaps the exception to that is what Taurasi was able to do in carrying UConn in 2003 and 2004, but even then I think her supporting cast was stronger than Griner's was in 2011 (Strother and Turner would go on to be second-round picks in 2006).

The 2013 loss to Louisville was obviously a stunner, but it was a bit of a lightning strike. Walz adopted a "puncher's chance" philosophy and successfully gambled that (1) the officials would allow overly physical play against Griner; and (2) they would bomb away from 3 and make enough of them to stay with Baylor. And outside of Griner and Sims, Baylor really wasn't terribly talented. Yes, they were senior-laden and experienced, but of the supporting cast of Pope, Williams, Madden and Hayden, I believe only Pope (in the 3rd round) was taken in the draft.

Griner had Sims who was a 3x All American and an AP 1st Teamer during 2013. She was better than anyone Parker, DT (her last 2 years) or Holdsclaw (her first two years) had on their teams. Hayden/Madden/Pope/Williams never became WNBA players but they were very good collegiate role players who logged big minutes each year from 2011 to 2013. Having a core of Griner/Sims plus other veteran role players who excelled at what they did (scoring, rebounding, tough defense, taking care of the ball, etc) should have yielded more than 1 Final Four in 3 years. Yes, Louisville was definitely a lightning strike scenario but at the end of the day a big part of one's legacy is championships and Final Fours. With Kim, I think she'd be cut a little more slack if she didn't go through a 6 year Final Four drought despite having several teams capable of making it to the Final Four (or further). I think there was a big switch in her demeanor this past year that worked well with her team. She seems a lot more relaxed on the sidelines than she did just 2-3 years ago. This next year has some challenges for her team but she has the pieces to repeat.