S. Carolina - Tennessee

[DobbsRover2]

Of course a Tennessee fan would choose to ignore that. Sadie Edwards was never going to earn much PT in spite of her lofty rankings by the recruiting services. But Nurse and Williams have been spectacular. And of course, our incoming class of 2015 blows everyone else's away. And that's not even including adding in Butler, who technically is part of the Williams, Nurse and Ekmark class.

UTenn's freshmen crew of mainly Nared and Middleton with a tiny bit of Dunbar have played 201 minutes in games against 10 opponents in the Sagarin top 25 and gotten 36 rebounds and 46 points. Nared has had some solid rebounding games and Middleton had one good scoring game, but yeah, those aren't numbers that are going to wow you about a freshman class, and many levels below the Huskies' Nurse and Willams combo. Ekmark has only been around and in two of the games against Sags top 25 foes, and her numbers of 8 minutes, 2 rebounds, 2 points actually average out better than the UTenn's groups in her very limited minutes. So maybe we can say that Nared, Middleton, and Dunbar have played at a level a bit below Ek's as she has worked herself into shape.

 

[EricSD]

UTenn's freshmen crew of mainly Nared and Middleton with a tiny bit of Dunbar have played 201 minutes in games against 10 opponents in the Sagarin top 25 and gotten 36 rebounds and 46 points. Nared has had some solid rebounding games and Middleton had one good scoring game, but yeah, those aren't numbers that are going to wow you about a freshman class, and many levels below the Huskies' Nurse and Willams combo. Ekmark has only been around and in two of the games against Sags top 25 foes, and her numbers of 8 minutes, 2 rebounds, 2 points actually average out better than the UTenn's groups in her very limited minutes. So maybe we can say that Nared, Middleton, and Dunbar have played at a level a bit below Ek's as she has worked herself into shape.

Right on. I guess in a way I was tweaking at the collective noses of Tenn fans, since if you read comments on their board leading up to this season, as i said it went like this:

1. Middleton has outplayed every guard ranked ahead of her in the class all summer.
2. Nared is one of the best players in the class despite the "lower" rankings of some services.
   
3. Dunbar is one of the best shooters in the class and will make an instant impact for Tenn.

I wasn't asking them for a comparison to the UCONN freshmen, but both Williams and Nurse have substantially better stats. In fact, if you combine Nared and Middleton's stats, they are about equal to Williams' total stats. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to analyze the production of each freshman class to note that UCONN's is light years better...

 

[VFLfan]

Every team has fans that blow a lot of smoke about how great their players are before they ever set foot on a college campus, LV fans included. Just above, you also just put the incoming UCONN class in a very high group above a lot of others based on how great they were in HS...and I don't blame you...they look to be a highly talented group. I do think, however, that Eric only posed the question about the LV freshman so someone (or many) could have an opportunity to point out the superiority of the UCONN frosh verses the LVs frosh. And I get that you guys want to point out your superiority over the LVs any and every chance you get. But I think you all need to consider a few things. Before Holly ever took over, if any LV fan is honest, they will tell you the program was in a bit of a decline during the last few years under Coach Pat. Who know if it had anything to do with her dementia or not...it really is irrelevant. But the fact remains that the LVs were underacheiving way before Holly took over as coach. Then, when Coach Pat made her surprising announcement then stepped down at the end of the year, the program was in disarray which indeed affected recruiting. Diamond pretty much admitted that was at least part of the reason she didn't initially chose UT in the first place. Add to that the fact that many needed Holly to prove she could be the head coach. So, yes, we may have suffered in the recruiting department last year and with the incoming class. I still think there is huge potential with Nared and I think Middleton will be ok if she improves in some areas. No one on the LV board is saying much different. I think it is evident that Holly has improved as a coach this year and the team is better than it was last year. She needs to continue improving and the team needs to continue to show that it is getting better for us to have a chance to go head to head with UCONN and ND in recruiting. There has to be talented girls out their that want to BEAT UCONN and not BE UCONN. Hopefully we can find them. Surely y'all are tired of not having ANY close games by now!

 

[Bayareahusky]

VFLfan - good assessment...... you guys played a very good game on Monday night..... and Holly deserves some credit for improving a bit. One thing is for sure..... you have always been able to recruit..... witness Russell Diamond Ariel Cierra.... all top 5 and whoever else..ur players have always been top notch..... still amazes me that Stricklen, Glory J, and co. didn't make it further..... those were good teams.... it is funny when i see the different Tenn boards, it is like every tough game you are going up against the lions..... my feeling is if you went through the roster player for player, TN stacks up well vs. anyone.....

I still have doubts about Holly and her staff..... it seems she has not coached the players to the max of their abilities..... the deemphasis of offense..... the overemphasis of hustle and emotion..... the seeming lack of x's and o's tutelage.... and it seems she is a rah rah coach and will not get in anyone's face as Pat did so frequently...... 23-4 is certainly a proud record..... and i worry for you guys that Tenn will be happy with that..... and consequently happy with Holly...... so many times I have seen TN look not fundamentally sound.... and with Holly in her 3rd year, plus a year as de facto coach, I would have expected more..... and again, Monday night was a good night for the Lady Vols.... if you play like that every time out..... perhaps I will become more convinced on the coaching staff..... Good luck the rest of the season..... good to see you and the other LV fans on here....

 

[VFLfan]

Thanks, Bay. I'm glad to be here because I just love women's basketball. I was born into a TN family so it was a requirement for me to be a Vol. I hope most of y'all don't judge our fans by the few that are not so honest. There are plenty of us that are. And I completely understand your concerns. Most of us fans have those same ones or did at one time. We play down to our competition way too much which is always a concern and I do wish that Holly would get in the face of some of them when they need it. But she isn't Pat and will never be. She has to be able to do things her way and we have to hope that it's good enough to get us back to competing with you guys. Time will tell. I'm not ready to write her off just yet.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Every team has fans that blow a lot of smoke about how great their players are before they ever set foot on a college campus, LV fans included. Just above, you also just put the incoming UCONN class in a very high group above a lot of others based on how great they were in HS...and I don't blame you...they look to be a highly talented group. I do think, however, that Eric only posed the question about the LV freshman so someone (or many) could have an opportunity to point out the superiority of the UCONN frosh verses the LVs frosh. And I get that you guys want to point out your superiority over the LVs any and every chance you get. But I think you all need to consider a few things. Before Holly ever took over, if any LV fan is honest, they will tell you the program was in a bit of a decline during the last few years under Coach Pat. Who know if it had anything to do with her dementia or not...it really is irrelevant. But the fact remains that the LVs were underacheiving way before Holly took over as coach. Then, when Coach Pat made her surprising announcement then stepped down at the end of the year, the program was in disarray which indeed affected recruiting. Diamond pretty much admitted that was at least part of the reason she didn't initially chose UT in the first place. Add to that the fact that many needed Holly to prove she could be the head coach. So, yes, we may have suffered in the recruiting department last year and with the incoming class. I still think there is huge potential with Nared and I think Middleton will be ok if she improves in some areas. No one on the LV board is saying much different. I think it is evident that Holly has improved as a coach this year and the team is better than it was last year. She needs to continue improving and the team needs to continue to show that it is getting better for us to have a chance to go head to head with UCONN and ND in recruiting. There has to be talented girls out their that want to BEAT UCONN and not BE UCONN. Hopefully we can find them. Surely y'all are tired of not having ANY close games by now!

Yep. fans love to have fun at the expense of rival teams' fanbases, and it is the duty of Vols' fans to be as rationally optimistic, hopeful, and supportive as possible. There is some big potential for UTenn if everything falls together right, but UConn fans have been hearing for years that line about the potential of a Vol team with so many top recruits only to see things kind of fall apart, or maybe just not gel.

Sure there are many types of fans on both the BY and VolNation (the Summitt is now a land of zombies), and you guys have everything from total-waste ghouls to some really insightful spirits. But as on the old discussions about Dangerfield not being a priority with Cooper in the fold (you can never have too many great PGs, just ask Duke this year last year and every other team in some years) showed a limited scope down in K-ville, the idea bandied about that Dunbar was the outside threat savior, or that Middleton was the next Kara Lawson after she scored 20 points in her first game against Penn (not to be confused with Princeton, and she is averaging under 4.0 in the games since), or that Nared would quickly morph into the next Sidney Spencer -- those kind of statements, especially when mixed with some of usual disparaging ones about "unimpressive" UConn freshmen early on just seemed like more fumes rising from the Orange Nation and a good reason for Husky fans to chuckle.

At some point Warlick has be given full responsibility for the state of affairs in Vol country without excusing her as just doing the best she can in Pat's shadow land. Next year there does appear to be a big pot of talent set to simmer for UTenn, but the Diamond DeShields act may be dynamite show that could blow up in the face of a coach who can't handle her. But the development and health of a top PG may be the most important factor, and whether she can keep the big dog happy.

 

[VFLfan]

Thanks for your insight, Dobbs. I understand that there are those LV fans that give you plenty of reasons to chuckle. Y'all build up your frosh just as high as us but unfortunately for us (and fortunate for you), y'all have been right thus far. I think the criticism towards DD from many of you on here, though, is unfounded. She had an incredible freshman year and helped lead a team of mainly freshmen to the Elite 8. Yes, she is confident...but I truly don't think she is arrogant and I think those who say she is a ball-hog and not a team player are being unfair to a 19 year old girl. DD and Holly have a great relationship and she herself has mentioned that it was her relationship that she had with Holly that helped her make the decision to come to UT. The LVs need a floor leader who isn't afraid to speak up and I think DD could be that player. We shall see. I just want someone to be able to at least play y'all within 10 pts...and I hope it can eventually be us again.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Thanks, Bay. I'm glad to be here because I just love women's basketball. I was born into a TN family so it was a requirement for me to be a Vol. I hope most of y'all don't judge our fans by the few that are not so honest. There are plenty of us that are. And I completely understand your concerns. Most of us fans have those same ones or did at one time. We play down to our competition way too much which is always a concern and I do wish that Holly would get in the face of some of them when they need it. But she isn't Pat and will never be. She has to be able to do things her way and we have to hope that it's good enough to get us back to competing with you guys. Time will tell. I'm not ready to write her off just yet.

Yeah, it is a wonderful game is it not? Oh and the fans..... yes you have some rabid ones, but so does every school...... I remember my younger days, when I don't think I could rightfully claim a complete set of genes and chromosones! And strangely enough, I have always rooted for Holly personally, she seems like such a good person..... Hopefully this recent uptick of momentum will stick and she will take traction in her endeavors..... Gotta say I also root for the injured folks including Izzy, though she will never wear the orange again, and Mercedes..... (man, hard to perform when experiencing those kinds of problems) and of course, like everyone else, rooting for Jannah T. and all she has endured.

 

[VolFan]

We'll certainly have a core crew to build success around for the next few years. Middleton, Dunbar, Nared, DeShields, Russell, and Tucker will all be here for the next 3 years and graduate together. Combine that with Cooper and MeMe Jackson who will be the class behind them and Jasmine Jones, Jordan Reynolds, and Andraya Carter ahead of them for two years and these will be teams with great ball pressure that should be able to run, run, run and finally play the pressing style Holly has wanted. We just need to sign a couple bigs in 2016 to replace Graves and Moore to have a very complete roster. DeShields and Russell together for 3 years will be formidable.

 

[cabbie191]

Thanks, Bay. I'm glad to be here because I just love women's basketball. I was born into a TN family so it was a requirement for me to be a Vol. I hope most of y'all don't judge our fans by the few that are not so honest. There are plenty of us that are. And I completely understand your concerns. Most of us fans have those same ones or did at one time. We play down to our competition way too much which is always a concern and I do wish that Holly would get in the face of some of them when they need it. But she isn't Pat and will never be. She has to be able to do things her way and we have to hope that it's good enough to get us back to competing with you guys. Time will tell. I'm not ready to write her off just yet.

And I'm glad you're on this board as well. As well as the other LV posters. I've enjoyed your insights about the Lady Vols, our Huskies (including us BY'ers) and WCBB in general.

As to the actual game, I really enjoyed watching this one, perhaps as much as any this season. Granted the 3 point shooting wasn't particularly accurate, and for a few short periods of time, there were a lot of misses from close range. So what - even in our steamroller games, our Huskies have this happen to them as well. At the end, both shot over 40% overall and both shot well from the free throw line.

In particular, both teams showed overall crisp passing and ball movement, with speed and without sloppiness - there were only 11 turnovers between the two teams. I thought TN played better than I expected; I won't claim that had Harrison been playing they might have won, but I'd think the rebounding margin SC enjoyed would have been closer.

Mainly, I really enjoyed watching a game that was evenly played and that was in doubt who the winner would be until the closing minute.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Thanks for your insight, Dobbs. I understand that there are those LV fans that give you plenty of reasons to chuckle. Y'all build up your frosh just as high as us but unfortunately for us (and fortunate for you), y'all have been right thus far. I think the criticism towards DD from many of you on here, though, is unfounded. She had an incredible freshman year and helped lead a team of mainly freshmen to the Elite 8. Yes, she is confident...but I truly don't think she is arrogant and I think those who say she is a ball-hog and not a team player are being unfair to a 19 year old girl. DD and Holly have a great relationship and she herself has mentioned that it was her relationship that she had with Holly that helped her make the decision to come to UT. The LVs need a floor leader who isn't afraid to speak up and I think DD could be that player. We shall see. I just want someone to be able to at least play y'all within 10 pts...and I hope it can eventually be us again.

DD has the potential to be one of the game-changing top players in WCBB next year and afterward. Her freshman year at UNC featured an inexperienced freshmen unit and a coaching situation that was not ideal, so you can't judge everything about her on what she did then in that situation. There were a lot of ups and downs for her and the team, with stunning good performances mixing with WTF ones, and the question for UTenn is whether that volatility will be transferred over to the Vols and whether there will be any Meighan Simmons type stuff under Holly. Just waiting to see how it plays out, but it takes a strong coach to harness the potential of a DD, as it did at UConn for DT.

 

[uconnell]

Thanks for your insight, Dobbs. I understand that there are those LV fans that give you plenty of reasons to chuckle. Y'all build up your frosh just as high as us but unfortunately for us (and fortunate for you), y'all have been right thus far. I think the criticism towards DD from many of you on here, though, is unfounded. She had an incredible freshman year and helped lead a team of mainly freshmen to the Elite 8. Yes, she is confident...but I truly don't think she is arrogant and I think those who say she is a ball-hog and not a team player are being unfair to a 19 year old girl. DD and Holly have a great relationship and she herself has mentioned that it was her relationship that she had with Holly that helped her make the decision to come to UT. The LVs need a floor leader who isn't afraid to speak up and I think DD could be that player. We shall see. I just want someone to be able to at least play y'all within 10 pts...and I hope it can eventually be us again.

Doesn't some of this post about DD remind one of the some outsiders remarks reguardng Taurasi?

 

[VFLfan]

Doesn't some of this post about DD remind one of the some outsiders remarks reguardng Taurasi?

Again as mentioned above, every team has fans that love to blow smoke, Tenn included. While I wasn't on this site during the time Taurasi played here, I still followed WBB religiously and while she was never a fave player of mine (only because I'm a LV fan and she burned us way too many times for my liking) she was an incredibly talented player. Any right-minded fan of any team, including the LVs, would tell you that. I can only hope that DD will end up being as great as DT!

 

[UcMiami]

DD had a great freshman year in terms of scoring and she was a very creative and exciting player to watch on a team with some very good freshman (who have continued to play well this year), but ...
A concern for me was she was a volume shooter who actual had worse shooting percentages than all the other starters on that team while taking over 30% of the shots, and her assist/turnover ratio wasn't good. She is a better player than Simmons or Massnegale, but whether Holly can create the structure on offense to allow her to be both creative and more efficient is yet to be seen. The recent track record for TN guards in that regard is not great.

 

[VA Huskie]

I got to see DD live in 1 game last year. UNC @ UVA. I was very impressed with her athletic ability, but not so much with her emotional/mental game. Granted, she was only a freshman, but lots of head hanging and pouting when things didn't go her way. In fact, at one point she was benched, seemingly, for that attitude. It'll be interesting to see how she does with the Vols.

 

[LadyVols9]

if she remains healthy, DD could very well be POY multiple times and one of the best in the WNBA. she is THAT good.

 

[CocoHusky]

if she remains healthy, DD could very well be POY multiple times and one of the best in the WNBA. she is THAT good.

That is an awful tall order for Diamond. To win " multiple" POY would mean winning in her Junior or Senior years because next year she would have to surpass Mitchell reining SEC POY and Lloyd presumptive POY this year and Stewart last year's POY.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Doesn't some of this post about DD remind one of the some outsiders remarks reguardng Taurasi?

Or even more so of the Tennessee sites' remarks about DD last year back when she was a "selfish ball hog," but then of course she signed on with the Vols and they're feeling they'll be living high on the hog.

 

[Tonyc]

One point that sticks out is that UConn is so much far superior then any team in WCBB. As UConn fans we cant compare any team to UConn and this season very few players to UConns roster. UConns roster has been, is, and will continue to be loaded and plugging the new players into Genos system will continue to make UConn the most dominate team in WCBB. Yes I would agree many not all UConn fans are tired of the blowouts. Lets face it there is no competition for UConn. The AAC might not be great but either is any other conference for UConn. Other conferences are good and competitive for each other but not UConn. So as UConn fans, we may tend to judge opponents by comparing them to UConn, which is only human.

As far as the LVs diminishing at the end of Pats career I agree. A lot of that had to do with Geno and Geno being driven to be the best. He imo was the first to compete and aspire to beat Tenn. Geno was not afraid of Tenn or Pat. Other coaches today are afraid of UConn and Geno. When UConn got verbals from EDD Doty and Maya that was what really started the deep hatred starting with the 37 page violation which imo may not have been started by Pat but by fans who I will not mention by name. When UConn got those 3 verbals that appeared to many fans as putting UConn over the top leaving Tenn behind. The 37 pages had a lot to do with Tenns down fall. The players parents and those kids coming up in the AAU programs resented what Tenn conspired to do which was take down Geno UConn UConns fans and anything to do with UConn. For those of us who went through it the 37 pages are still a craw in our side.

As far as blaming the new Tenn coaching staff for where Tenn is. IMO most teams are where Tenn is. Its called parity. Tenn not being as dominate as they once were is due to UConns dominance in recruiting. Other teams are better because they are recruiting from the same talent pool as Tenn. Can the coaching staff be blamed for having good talent and not making the FF? Yeah so can other teams. Next Season Tenn has Diamond and Mercedes. Are they enough to carry Tenn to the FF. IMO Tenn needs players to compliment DD and MR. Much like ND this season with Turner and Lloyd. ND plays a team oriented game where as Tenn is more dependent on their star player.

UConn will continue their dominance next season. Tenn has a chance to be top 4 with Diamond and Mercedes if Mercedes can stay healthy but they will need the supporting players to make an impact too.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

That is an awful tall order for Diamond. To win " multiple" POY would mean winning in her Junior or Senior years because next year she would have to surpass Mitchell reining SEC POY and Lloyd presumptive POY this year and Stewart last year's POY.

She will have to learn how to play defense if she is going to be a POTY.

 

[VFLfan]

She will have to learn how to play defense if she is going to be a POTY.

Well surely you can see that with Holly's insistance on "being in the stance" that DD has learned how to defend

 

[Geno-ista]

Based on what and how come so certain?

It was obvious to me to- the rebounding and garbage points would have changed dramatically - So Car would have been behind as they tried time and again to give that game away, instead of in front.

 

[Geno-ista]

[If Harrison had played, Tenn would have won]

Take points away from somebody and time ,does not mean a win!!!!!

The whole game changes

Adding 8 -10 rebounds that SC doesn't get and a bunch of garbage Pts that SC doesn't get changes everything- just my opinion. We'll never know.

 

[cferraro04]

I suspect that Diamond will forego her senior year and go to the WNBA following her Junior year. I'm guessing that she will only play two more years of College basketball.

 

[watanabe]

One point that sticks out is that UConn is so much far superior then any team in WCBB. As UConn fans we cant compare any team to UConn and this season very few players to UConns roster. UConns roster has been, is, and will continue to be loaded and plugging the new players into Genos system will continue to make UConn the most dominate team in WCBB. ...

It's looking more and more like Geno has trancended the sport. After so many NCs, and league titles he has simply kept on rising.
After watching the Memphis game tonight, Me thinks we are entering uncharted territory. This team has risen/surpassed beyond what it will take to win the NC this year. Geno does not know how to stop getting better, or how to level out. UConn is achieving a legend status. There will never be a better coach or legacy.

 

[Gate81]

Have to agree with DD being amazing. Saw her games in NCAA's against South Carolina and Stanford and she was spectacular, even with a purple ankle.

 

[Geno-ista]

I suspect that Diamond will forego her senior year and go to the WNBA following her Junior year. I'm guessing that she will only play two more years of College basketball.

I think you're right!

 

[Geno-ista]

Have to agree with DD being amazing. Saw her games in NCAA's against South Carolina and Stanford and she was spectacular, even with a purple ankle.

She's prolific- Gabby's athleticism and a phenomenal shooter. She played so hard and couldn't even get off the floor after getting fouled a few times. I can't wait to see her healthy.

 

[DobbsRover2]

But as the UTenn fans who called DD a ball hog last year, there are certain stats about her that can't just be discarded as necessarily only a legacy of the past. She took 6.3 shots per every assist last year, shooting at 42.6% overall and at 27.9% for the three-pointers she loved to throw up so much.

To put that in perspective, compare it to Baylor's Sims was also known for dominating the ball, but she took 4.7 shots per assist at 44.6% overall and 39.8% for threes. Stewie played a different position for UConn as its leading scorer and took 4.8 shots per assist at 49.7% average and this year is down to 4.1 shots per assist at 53.7%.

Sure, DD may be a totally new player at UTenn, or not.

 

[VFLfan]

But as the UTenn fans who called DD a ball hog last year, there are certain stats about her that can't just be discarded as necessarily only a legacy of the past. She took 6.3 shots per every assist last year, shooting at 42.6% overall and at 27.9% for the three-pointers she loved to throw up so much.

To put that in perspective, compare it to Baylor's Sims was also known for dominating the ball, but she took 4.7 shots per assist at 44.6% overall and 39.8% for threes. Stewie played a different position for UConn as its leading scorer and took 4.8 shots per assist at 49.7% average and this year is down to 4.1 shots per assist at 53.7%.

Sure, DD may be a totally new player at UTenn, or not.

She was also a freshman playing on a team of mainly freshman that had no true identity or go to player. Many top players improve tremendously from their freshman to sophomore years so how about we just wait until DD actually plays next year to see if she is the same player or not?