Rutgers Role in the Big Ten

[upstater]

Oh my god, people are dense.

Please find one instance where anyone said Wyoming or New Mexico were superior to a Stanford or Virginia Tech solely based on their "flagship" status while the other school is private or the secondary school in the state.

Flagship is only meaningful in the sense that in UConn's case the state supports the school financially to a great extent academically and athletically, where as some other schools in states may have to share resources or as a private you can't draw from public money. In addition, as the flagship, you're likely who non alumni in the state support athletically as well.

That's it!

I linked below to a statement by a Chancellor expressing the usefulness of the term. Flagship is a useful term in order to differentiate between types of universities. A research university has much costs and expenditures than a non-research school, so the term flagship is used to argue for more support to the state's research oriented institutions over non-research schools.

 

[adbern7]

I agree flagship is bogus. of course, Binghamton was never ahead of the other 2 SUNYs with AAU status is any sense that I can think of. The 3 were equal. AND, Clemson's academics are questionable at best. I'd rather be at South Carolina--any day. Cal-Berkeley claims it is the state's flagship but the Chancellor of the UC system has said that it is not the flagship. It is co-equal with the other Cals.

Fine but if you're actually a student or faculty in California, Berkeley is the real flagship, it's where everyone wants to go. This has gotten off topic, so I'll close by saying that Rutgers role in the B1G is clearly not to be the conference's, ahem, flagship program.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

@upstater I'm sure you are way more qualified to speak on university classifications than me. I'm simply speeching from am athletic standpoint in terms of support from the state and population of the state.

 

[NickyNewark]

Fine but if you're actually a student or faculty in California, Berkeley is the real flagship, it's where everyone wants to go. This has gotten off topic, so I'll close by saying that Rutgers role in the B1G is clearly not to be the conference's, ahem, flagship program.

I never seen anyone make that claim on behalf of RU? NJ's,..yes the B1G's? no..only OSU and Mich can safely make that claim!

 

[upstater]

@upstater I'm sure you are way more qualified to speak on university classifications than me. I'm simply speeching from am athletic standpoint in terms of support from the state and population of the state.

Well, in terms of sports, it's hard to say. Right now, in Texas, A&M is getting more support than UT. A&M is more in tune with the state's power structure, so much so that their last President was fired for getting into an argument with the AD. In the state of PA., you also had an antagonistic replationship between the state and PSU long before the Sandusky scandal. The degree of support might vary from state to state. I imagine U. Florida or U. Georgia might get a huge among of state support for athletics, while flagships elsewhere might have an adversarial relationship.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

I know A&M due to their move to the SEC and Johnny Football accompanied with Texas' down years has shifted the spotlight right now.

However, there is no way Texas doesn't have more financial or fan support in Texas than A&M.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

Oh my god, people are dense.

Please find one instance where anyone said Wyoming or New Mexico were superior to a Stanford or Virginia Tech solely based on their "flagship" status while the other school is private or the secondary school in the state.

Flagship is only meaningful in the sense that in UConn's case the state supports the school financially to a great extent academically and athletically, where as some other schools in states may have to share resources or as a private you can't draw from public money. In addition, as the flagship, you're likely who non alumni in the state support athletically as well.

That's it!

Nicely put. Flagship to me means the school is getting majority of state's financial support. CT has 3.6M people and UCONN is unquestionable state's flagship university. In Kentucky, UK is unquestionable state's flagship. CA is such a huge state, so it can have several "flagship" universities. There is no doubt UCs in CA get more financial support than schools like Fresno State or San Jose State. For northern CA, Berkeley is the flagship while UCLA is the flagship for southern CA.

 

[upstater]

I know A&M due to their move to the SEC and Johnny Football accompanied with Texas' down years has shifted the spotlight right now.

However, there is no way Texas doesn't have more financial or fan support in Texas than A&M.

I said state support.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

I said state support.

They both pay their football coaches $5M a year, so not sure how A&M has leap frogged Texas just yet. Granted that's only at a quick glance.

I will say this, if A&M continues to grow as a successful SEC program, you would think that on some level would make Texas at least think about going indy, B1Gor Pac, right?

 

[upstater]

They both pay their football coaches $5M a year, so not sure how A&M has leap frogged Texas just yet. Granted that's only at a quick glance.

I will say this, if A&M continues to grow as a successful SEC program, you would think that on some level would make Texas at least think about going indy, B1Gor Pac, right?

Rick Perry and most all the bigwigs are A&M grads, and they have put the screws to UT. They are killing funding for UT and are at war with UT's President.

 

[baggerbob]

Not only did Pitt voted to keep PSU out of the BE, their president was also the guy who was in charge of negotiating BE's last TV deal. BE turned ESPiN down with Pitt president as the ring leader. Had BE accepted that deal, BE would have been paid $13M to $14M per year per school.

Once BE pissed off ESPiN with threat of taking the TV contract to the open market, it was all over. ESPiN sent its favorite errand boy Swofford to break up the BE by taking SU and PITT in the middle of the night. Swofford is the slimiest commissioner and he knew exactly what he was doing. With uncertainty with the TV deal and the possibility of other BE schools defecting if they did not accept, SU and Pitt accepted ACC's deal in the middle of BE TV contract negotiation. In fact, they torpedoed the whole thing. I have little doubt had BE schools stayed together, they would have got a better deal than what ACC did in the open market. ESPiN worked with the ACC to destroy the BE so they can get media properties at a discount. It is a cut-throat business move for bunch of public universities. I am pretty confident ESPiN used its puppet the ACC to destroy the BE.

We will never know what would have happened had BE accepted that TV deal. With so much distrust between schools, it was easy for ESPiN's favorite errand boy to do its dirty work by played BE schools against each other.

In many ways, we are where we are today with Pitt played a huge role. If there is another school UCONN fans should hate more than BCU and the fruits, it should be SPITT.

Pittsburgh wasn't in the Big East when the vote was taken on Penn St, it was 3 of the basketball schools who voted no, probably Villanova, Georgetown, and St Johns who had the most to lose if Penn St joined.

 

[pj]

UConn and Bama are both "flagships", and CT has about 80% of the population with far more state income than AL, but UConn's politics would never allow to pay a head coach anything close to Saban's salary (which while bad for football fans is probably a smart move for society!), nor invest as many resources into athletics.

Don't see that. UConn gets about 1/3 as many fans in the stadium as Bama, less than 1/3 the TV audience, but pays its coaches 1/3 as much ($1.5 mn + per year for head coach). The investment in basketball and Olympic sports is greater than Bama's. If Connecticut got into college football as ardently as Alabama has, you'd see Connecticut politicians investing heavily in football, and paying our football coach a Bama-like salary. If you're saying the Connecticut public would never get as interested in football as the Alabama public, well, that is likely true, but it's also likely Alabama will never get as interested in basketball as Connecticut.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Rick Perry and most all the bigwigs are A&M grads, and they have put the screws to UT. They are killing funding for UT and are at war with UT's President.

I don't follow politics AT ALL, but wouldn't this hurt their reelection chances, given that a lot of their constituents are likely Texas grads or fans?

 

[upstater]

I don't follow politics AT ALL, but wouldn't this hurt their reelection chances, given that a lot of their constituents are likely Texas grads or fans?

I don't know. But most of the state does not like the politics of Austin, you can bet on that.

 

[WestHartHusk]

I don't follow politics AT ALL, but wouldn't this hurt their reelection chances, given that a lot of their constituents are likely Texas grads or fans?

Perry has known for awhile he is not running again, so he has the leeway to toy with UT (if that is his goal - and some articles I have read suggest it just might be). And don't forget, A&M is in "real" Texas (near Houston); Austin is just a city they haven't invaded yet.

 

[upstater]

Pittsburgh wasn't in the Big East when the vote was taken on Penn St, it was 3 of the basketball schools who voted no, probably Villanova, Georgetown, and St Johns who had the most to lose if Penn St joined.

There was a vote in 1982. Pitt was a member. PSU was also discussed when the BE first formed, around 1978-1979, and that was more of PSU's fault, as it wanted an all-sports conference with BC and Syracuse in it. PSU came back to the table twice after the initial attempts. Once in 1982 formally, and once again in 1988 or 1989 informally (although that was a Paterno claim, he said PSU wanted to join the BE and that they had Maryland "in his back pocket" to join with them, but were turned away when PSU asked for a larger slice of the football pie).

 

[baggerbob]

There was a vote in 1982. Pitt was a member. PSU was also discussed when the BE first formed, around 1978-1979, and that was more of PSU's fault, as it wanted an all-sports conference with BC and Syracuse in it. PSU came back to the table twice after the initial attempts. Once in 1982 formally, and once again in 1988 or 1989 informally (although that was a Paterno claim, he said PSU wanted to join the BE and that they had Maryland "in his back pocket" to join with them, but were turned away when PSU asked for a larger slice of the football pie).

There were 8 voting members at the time Penn State applied, the original 7 Providence, Georgetown, St Johns, Seton Hall, Boston College, UConn, Syracuse, and the 8th member admitted in 1980, Villanova. The vote was 5-3 in favor of adding Penn St, needed one more, after they rejected Penn St, later Pittsburgh was added. Providence, Seton Hall, UConn, would have voted with Boston College, and Syracuse, they had nothing to lose. I suspect it was those 3 schools [ Georgetown, St Johns, Villanova, ] who spread the rumor that Syracuse voted against Penn St, which Mike T later refuted. The later attempts were rejected, because Joe not only wanted more of the revenue, but wanted 2 for 1 football games with the football schools. He was already becoming a mini-dictator.

 

[upstater]

There were 8 voting members at the time Penn State applied, the original 7 Providence, Georgetown, St Johns, Seton Hall, Boston College, UConn, Syracuse, and the 8th member admitted in 1980, Villanova. The vote was 5-3 in favor of adding Penn St, needed one more, after they rejected Penn St, later Pittsburgh was added. Providence, Seton Hall, UConn, would have voted with Boston College, and Syracuse, they had nothing to lose. I suspect it was those 3 schools [ Georgetown, St Johns, Villanova, ] who spread the rumor that Syracuse voted against Penn St, which Mike T later refuted. The later attempts were rejected, because Joe not only wanted more of the revenue, but wanted 2 for 1 football games with the football schools. He was already becoming a mini-dictator.

It all depends on what you're talking about. If you're talking about the initial 5-3 vote, yes Pitt was not there. But they put PSU up informally once again almost immediately, and at that point, even Crouthamel was against them. As well as Pitt. Crouthamel has said as much (even though he keeps that out of his recollection when he wrote the "Big East's mistake" article.

Here's Crouthamel & Paterno:
“Syracuse and a couple other people were all wrapped up in basketball, Big East basketball,” Paterno said at a news conference Tuesday. “I thought I had almost pulled it off.”

Jake Crouthamel, the retired Syracuse athletic director, said: “Why would I agree to that? I’m looking out for my team, not his team.”

Penn State and Syracuse later failed to agree to terms in negotiating a contract after the 1990 season. The Nittany Lions, who play in the 108,000-capacity Beaver Stadium, requested six home games over the 10-year contract. Syracuse wanted an even distribution of home games. Their disagreement served as fitting punctuation for a tenuous relationship.

“Joe didn’t think very highly of me, and that may be putting it mildly,” Crouthamel said in a telephone interview. “And as a result, I didn’t think very highly of Joe and what he was demanding.”

And it wasn't a 2-1. It was a 6-4 annual game. This was in 1990. That was after the BE discussions already fell apart.

Penn State didn't get the deal from Syracuse and Pitt. But Tranghese, AND Syracuse, AND Pitt, offered Miami an even better deal than PSU asked for once Miami was out the door in 2003. They offered Miami $10m a year extra in conference revenue above anyone else's. Miami turned it down. This was a better offer than PSU asked for 15 years prior.

 

[upstater]

This is Tranghese:

We voted five different times and all five times Jake voted for Penn State. And Bill Flynn at Boston College, God rest his soul, voted for Penn State all five times.

There was more than that one vote in 1982. Beano Cook of Pitt is also on record as saying Pitt voted against PSU. When Tranghese speaks of all the votes, he emphasizes that BC and Syracuse always voted to include PSU. Pitt is omitted, and some of those 5 votes happened after Pitt became a member.

 

[SouthronCross]

Interesting you brought that up since both UCONN's President and AD are also from B1G institutions.

I knew about Ms Herbst being from the B1G. What school did Manuel come from?

 

[HawkHusky]

I knew about Ms Herbst being from the B1G. What school did Manuel come from?

Michigan and new Head Coach Diaco is an Iowa alum

WM actually played football for Michigan

 

[SouthronCross]

One of those 'obligations' won't include ponying up $50M but I think that you agree with that.

Yes, we agree. It likely won't be the whole $50M, but, something in the $30M range is my uneducated, uninformed guess.

For what it is worth, I have no objection to the ACC yanking MD around for a while. I also think that Swofford did a good job of keeping his conference intact. I don't begrudge him that at all. I do thinking that the conference moves are reactionary rather than strategic and may cost him in the long run. But in the near term, he did an amazing job.

Louisville was for sure reactionary. It was nonetheless a good pick. If they hire a good new HC for FB, then going forward, they will be fine. Pitt and Syracuse weren't reactionary. Syracuse was a near certainty. I believe we agree here as well. Pitt was a compromise pick over UConn. Again, I like Pitt, but, would've totally prreferred UConn.

Even if we were invited to the ACC tomorrow, which we all know isn't going to happen, I'd still have a lot of bad feelings about being yanked around. That isn't to say that I wouldn't be happy about it, I would.

Completely understandable. Still holding out hope that you will be here soon.

 

[ZooCougar]

Michigan and new Head Coach Diaco is an Iowa alum

WM actually played football for Michigan

I think it's funny that Iowa's coach is a UConn alum, and UConn's coach is an Iowa alum. I wonder how many times that has happened before. It would be cool to play Iowa and watch each HC try to beat their alma mater.

 

[SouthronCross]

The day that the basketball schools in the BE gathered together to keep Penn State out was the day that eventually doomed the Big E because the closed minded fools in Providence could not see what every one saw.

That has always been my thought as well. Leaving Penn State out of the Big East was just crazy.

You northeast FB-playing schools did not need the basketball only schools AT ALL. You all would have been a good all-sports conference that would stand on its own. Heck, that BE might've been able to land Miami and FSU at the same time. Talk about a danged good football league!

 

[ZooCougar]

That has always been my thought as well. Leaving Penn State out of the Big East was just crazy.

You northeast FB-playing schools did not need the basketball only schools AT ALL. You all would have been a good all-sports conference that would stand on its own. Heck, that BE might've been able to land Miami and FSU at the same time. Talk about a danged good football league!

Not adding PSU and not having the strategic foresight to lock in FSU (as Miami's rival) doomed this thing. Honestly, I think the Big East leadership just mailed in that whole effort.