Rule question involving an ex-Husky

[stamfordhusky]

That rule refers to the boundaries of the official's jurisdiction...which isn't the same as saying what they are permissible to do while they have jurisdiction or that those boundaries are synonymous with the start or the end of the game itself. In fact, there's a section called PRE duties...and my interpretation is that they want to say...the GAME has not started. For example, if officials inspect the court and the lines aren't correct they can issue a technical to the home team...even prior to the start of the game. The penalty for that technical (before the game clock started and while officials have jurisdiction) can't be applied until the start of the first quarter, meaning...on the clock and during the game. AND...the penalty involves free-throws because official can't add points to the official score, especially for something that happened before the GAME STARTED...albeit not before their JURISDICTION STARTED. While the officials may have had JURISDICTION (this is mostly to secure official records) when the GAME ended, the problem is there was no more game time to award free throws. I think the NCAA should speak on this. Might seem like a trivial issue, but with past issues with sports and gambling (remember Boston College)...should a single person be able to change the score of a game that had ended?

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.NCAA Publications - 2021-22 and 2022-23 NCAA Women's Basketball Rules and Interpretations

Your interpretation is not correct. The game does NOT end until the referees have left the floor, according to the rules. They are CLEARLY allowed to award free throws after the clock reads 0:00. Here are a couple of interesting items from the NCAA case book, which has the same force as the rules:


A.R. 26. Team A is ahead by one point. The game-ending horn sounds with the ball loose at the division line. Clearly after playing time has expired, A1 retrieves the ball and dunks into A1’s basket. The referee, before checking/approving the final score, sees this action by A1 and assesses a player/substitute technical foul. Team A’s coach pushes the referee after the technical foul is ruled. The referee assesses a disqualifying foul to Team A’s coach, ejects the coach, and awards Team B four free throws. RULING: The referee is correct. The officials’ jurisdiction does not end until the approval of the final score. Until the officials’ jurisdiction ends, an official may rule a technical foul, an intentional foul, or a disqualifying foul, correct a correctable error (Rule 2-12), or correct a bookkeeping mistake by the official scorer. (Rule 2-4.3)

A.R. 27. The officials leave the playing area at the end of the game, and while they are in the locker room, it is discovered that there is a mistake in the score or that there was a request for a correctable error (Rule 2-12). RULING: When the officials leave the visual confines of the playing court when the final quarter or overtime are over, the score has been approved and the game is over.

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One other thing about your scenario of the technical that is assessed in pre-game. You say, "The penalty for that technical (before the game clock started and while officials have jurisdiction) can't be applied until the start of the first quarter, meaning...on the clock and during the game. "

In fact, the free throws are shot BEFORE the first quarter has started. Not "on the clock and during the game." The free throws are taken, and then are followed by a jump ball that initiates the actual game.


There is a reason that the NCAA will not speak to this play, i.e. that everyone closely involved in basketball already understands exactly what happened and that a referee can still assess technical fouls after time has expired.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Your interpretation is not correct. The game does NOT end until the referees have left the floor, according to the rules. They are CLEARLY allowed to award free throws after the clock reads 0:00. Here are a couple of interesting items from the NCAA case book, which has the same force as the rules:


A.R. 26. Team A is ahead by one point. The game-ending horn sounds with the ball loose at the division line. Clearly after playing time has expired, A1 retrieves the ball and dunks into A1’s basket. The referee, before checking/approving the final score, sees this action by A1 and assesses a player/substitute technical foul. Team A’s coach pushes the referee after the technical foul is ruled. The referee assesses a disqualifying foul to Team A’s coach, ejects the coach, and awards Team B four free throws. RULING: The referee is correct. The officials’ jurisdiction does not end until the approval of the final score. Until the officials’ jurisdiction ends, an official may rule a technical foul, an intentional foul, or a disqualifying foul, correct a correctable error (Rule 2-12), or correct a bookkeeping mistake by the official scorer. (Rule 2-4.3)

A.R. 27. The officials leave the playing area at the end of the game, and while they are in the locker room, it is discovered that there is a mistake in the score or that there was a request for a correctable error (Rule 2-12). RULING: When the officials leave the visual confines of the playing court when the final quarter or overtime are over, the score has been approved and the game is over.

- - - - -

One other thing about your scenario of the technical that is assessed in pre-game. You say, "The penalty for that technical (before the game clock started and while officials have jurisdiction) can't be applied until the start of the first quarter, meaning...on the clock and during the game. "

In fact, the free throws are shot BEFORE the first quarter has started. Not "on the clock and during the game." The free throws are taken, and then are followed by a jump ball that initiates the actual game.


There is a reason that the NCAA will not speak to this play, i.e. that everyone closely involved in basketball already understands exactly what happened and that a referee can still assess technical fouls after time has expired.

Obviously...not everyone knows. And just because it's a rule... would certainly like to know the point of it. I bet there are plenty of players and gambling folks that never heard of this.

So the game starts with a clock, but doesn't end when the clock goes to zero? It ends when the ref is out of sight of the court? And you think everyone closely involved understands the "logic" or even the intent here? How would the scorekeeper enter free throws taken "pregame" or even "post game"? There are only 4 quarters in the game...regardless of the clock time.

 

[Tonyc]

At the end of last nights Syracuse/Virginia game Syracuse was just holding the ball as the clock expired in about a 10 point win. Mir got right up tight to the Syracuse player (seemed strange as play was over). After the horn went off the Syracuse player sort of pushed her away a little as she tossed the ball away. Here is what happened next - an official called a technical on the Syracuse player for pushing Mir! At that point the coaches had already done their handshake and the teams were off the benches and either filing out or mingling on the floor. The Officials got together sent everyone off the floor and awarded a DIFFERENT player 2 shots - after time had expired and the game was over. I can't even imagine what would have happened if that had changed the outcome! Is this legal according to the rules???

I remember many years ago Springfield College was playing a game in DII and the game was over and Springfield was down 1 pt and a player on the winning team did something I forgot what and a technical was called. Springfield made both foul shots and won the game which qualifed them to play in the regionals.

 

[HopJim]

99.9% of the extracurricular activity after the buzzer sounds is never called. This is "pandora's box." Should be a rule change.

 

[sun]

It shows that Mir's behavior was pretty savvy.
And that members of a winning team need to be extra careful about being provoked by players on the losing team, or by the weaker team during pre-game activities.

Coaches should better instruct their players about the rules and how at all times, their behavior can affect the outcome of the game.

It's unfortunate that if one player or coach went berserk that it could penalize an entire team.

Perhaps if a referee exercised extremely poor judgment in awarding controversial T's, then they could be suspended for a period of time as a penalty.
But the ref's usually conference together when making these judgment calls so that their calls maintain a rational perspective.

In Mir's case, even when players are piled on top of each other on the floor, they're allowed a second or two to "slowly" get off the other player, which she hadn't stopped rubbing yet.
I look at Mir's rubbing/provocation much like when elbows are used as a weapon to jab defenders during the game.
Little elbow jabs to the defender's midsection are often overlooked by the refs when perhaps they should be called for being overly aggressive.
But if one can get away with using their elbows then Mir can get away with rubbing up against the other player too.
It's all viewed as incidental contact until one Syracuse player reacts with hostility and then the T is awarded.
Mir got away with it.

 

[TCC Kid]

The ref needed to walk away. While the stare down and close personal space violation was probably uncalled for it was not illegal & the push was ridiculously minor. This was a true case of "no harm, no foul."

Un-sportsman like conduct is a foul. If at games end you continue pushing, yaking it up (negatively), I'd call it. College or HS need to learn it is just a game and it not a RIGHT to play in these contests. It is something fans should learn competiton is great and you should play all out, like Nika. When the horn blows the competition ends.

 

[stamfordhusky]

Obviously...not everyone knows. And just because it's a rule... would certainly like to know the point of it. I bet there are plenty of players and gambling folks that never heard of this.

So the game starts with a clock, but doesn't end when the clock goes to zero? It ends when the ref is out of sight of the court? And you think everyone closely involved understands the "logic" or even the intent here? How would the scorekeeper enter free throws taken "pregame" or even "post game"? There are only 4 quarters in the game...regardless of the clock time.

Look at the Syracuse box score. Those two FT's were listed as occurring at 0:00 and were part of the fourth quarter. Maybe I assume too much about fan's knowledge of basketball. I've known this since HS and seen it happen in person.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Look at the Syracuse box score. Those two FT's were listed as occurring at 0:00 and were part of the fourth quarter. Maybe I assume too much about fan's knowledge of basketball. I've known this since HS and seen it happen in person.

I don't anyone who knows everything about anything. I mean if seasoned analysts, some who are ex players) can consult Steve Javie regarding the rules of basketball, then there's no shame in my game trying to better understand.

And I would expect the freethrows to be recorded in the 4th quarter as I would expect freethrows taken in the first quarter when the clock reads 10:00 to be recorded as part of the first quarter. Which is why I said "on the clock and during the game". If scoring at 0:00 is part of the game, then certainly 10:00 is part of quarter 1.

I certainly thank you for your wisdom in clarifying the validity of the call, but beyond correcting a scoring error I don't get the intent. The call aside, the violation occurred beyond regulation and then the results of that violation (extra points) is recorded as part of the scoring record. Bizarre logic and rule IMO.

 

[sun]

I certainly thank you for your wisdom in clarifying the validity of the call, but beyond correcting a scoring error I don't get the intent. The call aside, the violation occurred beyond regulation and then the results of that violation (extra points) is recorded as part of the scoring record. Bizarre logic and rule IMO.

It appears that the purpose of technical fouls is because they are important tools for enforcing behavior, as well as administrative & procedural rules that are important to game management.
Being responsible for game management is the very reason why referees are given their authority to control the outcome of the game.

Some of the administrative & procedural rules begin to be enforced before the game actually starts such as when a coach gives the information about their starting line up and uniform numbers which can result in a technical if incorrect or aren't legally met.
If you can understand that simple rule needs to be enforced with a technical then you can understand why there can be technicals before the game even starts that can affect the score.

I'm not going to hunt for a perfect article that can explain it to you, but the one below starts off with a reasonably good explanation that I mentioned above.

Technical Fouls: The Most Misunderstood Rule In Basketball? | MomsTeam

Technical fouls are a necessary, but perhaps the most misunderstood part of the game of basketball and are an important part of an official's arsenal in effectively managing the game, coaches and players.

www.momsteam.com

Humans make rules for sports that have evolved over time, and they have become accepted as being necessary and good for the game.
If people don't like the current rules, they are free to try to change them, but it can become a political battle if they think that they know more than the governing bodies such as the NCAA or the professional sports leagues.
There's are NCAA rules committee that are constantly examining the rules and are willing to accept suggestions.
But changes are usually incremental and not radical or extreme.
It takes a lot of deliberation and a majority of votes to change rules.
And the rules committee is largely made of NCAA coaches from around the country.
So a person would need to convince them about how they should be doing a better job of reviewing the rules.