OT: Rock And Roll HOF

[upstater]

They're clueless about rap. Missy Elliott in the HOF over people like Rakim, Tribe, Outkast, Nas etc. is just funny.

You should look into Kenny Loggins catalog, he's great.

Google Search

40m + albums sold for Eliott, best selling female rapper of all-time. She's popular and ground breaking.

Missy Elliott’s Six Studio Albums Certified Platinum

Missy Elliot has broken the world record as her six studio albums have been certified [RIAA] Platinum or higher in the US.

guardian.ng

I just looked up Loggins. Does he only do songs for movies? I heard of Danger Zone and Footloose. What kind of greatness are you looking at here? He seems like a Afternoon Special kind of act.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Tommy James and the Shondells, Zevon, Bad Company too.

Bad Co AND Paul Roger’s individually.

 

[Madmannsucks]

They're clueless about rap. Missy Elliott in the HOF over people like Rakim, Tribe, Outkast, Nas etc. is just funny.

You should look into Kenny Loggins catalog, he's great.

Loggins before a solo career was a constant on the radio in the early to mid 70’s with Loggins and Messina selling well over 20 million records.

 

[John]

Google Search

40m + albums sold for Eliott, best selling female rapper of all-time. She's popular and ground breaking.

Missy Elliott’s Six Studio Albums Certified Platinum

Missy Elliot has broken the world record as her six studio albums have been certified [RIAA] Platinum or higher in the US.

guardian.ng

I just looked up Loggins. Does he only do songs for movies? I heard of Danger Zone and Footloose. What kind of greatness are you looking at here? He seems like a Afternoon Special kind of act.

He was integral part of Loggins and Messina, had hits there too.

 

[HooperScooper]

there is nothing rockin about Dolly except her

One of my favorite movie lines of all time.

 

[Waquoit]

They're clueless about rap. Missy Elliott in the HOF over people like Rakim, Tribe, Outkast, Nas etc. is just funny.

Maybe they can all go in the Hip Hop Hall of fame. None of these artists rock.

 

[storrsroars]

Finally, the Carpenters might have had a strong case but they were eliminated forever when the judges remembered they put this out:

I actually own the Klaatu album with the original song - a song which was also used very effectively to close an episode of Mindhunter. So it has its fans.

Fwiw, The Carpenters' version was a top 10 hit in three countries (#1 in Ireland), and top 20 in the US.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Honestly, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is the "Pop Music" HOF. Half the people in it aren't Rock & Roll bands or artists.

 

[Waquoit]

I actually own the Klaatu album with the original song - a song which was also used very effectively to close an episode of Mindhunter. So it has its fans.

Fell for the hype, eh?

 

[CL82]

Agree with most of what you wrote, except I understand George Michael. He's one of the most prominent people in his generation. A lot of hits. He does pop, but he also does rock (Faith). Phil Collins is a good comparison, but not as popular as Michael. I wonder if Genesis is in.

Finally, the Carpenters might have had a strong case but they were eliminated forever when the judges remembered they put this out:

That was awesome. I have to say Karen Carpenter's voice makes even that song work.

This reminds me of the whole "blueblood" debate. What are the criteria to be member of the rock 'n' roll Hall of Fame? Is it to be some vaguely remembered artist, because that appears to be the standard a lot of people are using.

Tommy James and the Shondells? The only thing I ever remember them singing is Crimson and Clover (over and over). (Edit: I just looked them up and they did have some other good songs like Mony Mony, and Crystal Blue Persuasion. I'm not sure if that's Hall of Fame worthy though.)

The Carpenters? No doubt they were huge on the pop music scene and eventually had their own variety show, but were they really rock 'n' roll artists?

You can make the same argument about Dolly Parton though, who did, for some reason, make the cut.

 

[upstater]

That was awesome. I have to say Karen Carpenter's voice makes even that song work.

This reminds me of the whole "blueblood" debate. What are the criteria to be member of the rock 'n' roll Hall of Fame? Is it to be some vaguely remembered artist, because that appears to be the standard a lot of people are using.

Tommy James and the Shondells? The only thing I ever remember them singing is Crimson and Clover (over and over). (Edit: I just looked them up and they did have some other good songs like Mony Mony, and Crystal Blue Persuasion. I'm not sure if that's Hall of Fame worthy though.)

The Carpenters? No doubt they were huge on the pop music scene and eventually had their own variety show, but were they really rock 'n' roll artists?

You can make the same argument about Dolly Parton though, who did, for some reason, make the cut.

The only thing I will say about Parton is that many of her songs started country rock and she has always been on the ground of folk/country.

I got myself in a big jam at dinner a few months ago with a country music expert who laughed at me for assuming country came out of the south and folk music. She said it's a typical thing to say. Apparently what we know as country came out of California and has entirely different roots than we assume. Parton plays a big part, but it's not her Tennessee/folksy hillbilly that is the influence.

 

[NowInStorrs]

The R&R HOF has lost the plot. They should just rename it to the music HOF at this point.

 

[CL82]

The only thing I will say about Parton is that many of her songs started country rock and she has always been on the ground of folk/country.

I got myself in a big jam at dinner a few months ago with a country music expert who laughed at me for assuming country came out of the south and folk music. She said it's a typical thing to say. Apparently what we know as country came out of California and has entirely different roots than we assume. Parton plays a big part, but it's not her Tennessee/folksy hillbilly that is the influence.

I had the same impression that you do about the origins of country music. Interestingly, so does Wikipedia:

The main components of the modern country music style date back to music traditions throughout the Southern United States and Southwestern United States, while its place in American popular music was established in the 1920s during the early days of music recording.[13] According to country historian Bill C. Malone, country music was "introduced to the world as a Southern phenomenon."[14]

Migration into the southern Appalachian Mountains, of the Southeastern United States, brought the folk music and instruments of Europe, Africa, and the Mediterranean Basin along with it for nearly 300 years, which developed into Appalachian music. As the country expanded westward, the Mississippi River and Louisiana became a crossroads for country music, giving rise to Cajun music. In the Southwestern United States, it was the Rocky Mountains, American frontier, and Rio Grande that acted as a similar backdrop for Native American, Mexican, and cowboy ballads, which resulted in New Mexico music and the development of western music, and its directly related Red Dirt, Texas country, and Tejano music styles. In the Asia-Pacific, the steel guitar sound of country music has its provenance in the music of Hawaii.[15][16]

Role of East Tennessee​

Main article: Music of East Tennessee
The U.S. Congress has formally recognized Bristol, Tennessee as the "Birthplace of Country Music"

Link

 

[superjohn]

I had the same impression that you do about the origins of country music. Interestingly, so does Wikipedia:

The main components of the modern country music style date back to music traditions throughout the Southern United States and Southwestern United States, while its place in American popular music was established in the 1920s during the early days of music recording.[13] According to country historian Bill C. Malone, country music was "introduced to the world as a Southern phenomenon."[14]

Migration into the southern Appalachian Mountains, of the Southeastern United States, brought the folk music and instruments of Europe, Africa, and the Mediterranean Basin along with it for nearly 300 years, which developed into Appalachian music. As the country expanded westward, the Mississippi River and Louisiana became a crossroads for country music, giving rise to Cajun music. In the Southwestern United States, it was the Rocky Mountains, American frontier, and Rio Grande that acted as a similar backdrop for Native American, Mexican, and cowboy ballads, which resulted in New Mexico music and the development of western music, and its directly related Red Dirt, Texas country, and Tejano music styles. In the Asia-Pacific, the steel guitar sound of country music has its provenance in the music of Hawaii.[15][16]

Role of East Tennessee​

Main article: Music of East Tennessee
The U.S. Congress has formally recognized Bristol, Tennessee as the "Birthplace of Country Music"

Link

Of course Country music is from the South. There was a California Country sound when Southerners migrated to California for jobs and brought their music with them. Like the Southerners brought their blues to Chicago when they migrated north for work.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Of course Country music is from the South. There was a California Country sound when Southerners migrated to California for jobs and brought their music with them. Like the Southerners brought their blues to Chicago when they migrated north for work.

Country has southern roots and frankly black blues roots. The California style was popularized in the 60’s with Buck Owen’s and Merle Haggard among others. Then in the 70’ came the Austin/Outlaw movement.

 

[upstater]

I had the same impression that you do about the origins of country music. Interestingly, so does Wikipedia:

The main components of the modern country music style date back to music traditions throughout the Southern United States and Southwestern United States, while its place in American popular music was established in the 1920s during the early days of music recording.[13] According to country historian Bill C. Malone, country music was "introduced to the world as a Southern phenomenon."[14]

Migration into the southern Appalachian Mountains, of the Southeastern United States, brought the folk music and instruments of Europe, Africa, and the Mediterranean Basin along with it for nearly 300 years, which developed into Appalachian music. As the country expanded westward, the Mississippi River and Louisiana became a crossroads for country music, giving rise to Cajun music. In the Southwestern United States, it was the Rocky Mountains, American frontier, and Rio Grande that acted as a similar backdrop for Native American, Mexican, and cowboy ballads, which resulted in New Mexico music and the development of western music, and its directly related Red Dirt, Texas country, and Tejano music styles. In the Asia-Pacific, the steel guitar sound of country music has its provenance in the music of Hawaii.[15][16]

Role of East Tennessee​

Main article: Music of East Tennessee
The U.S. Congress has formally recognized Bristol, Tennessee as the "Birthplace of Country Music"

Link

I was specifically called out for assuming these roots.

I mentioned Appalachia and folk as roots, specifically the Scottish hillybilly stuff. She laughed and said "you got that from Songcatcher which has lead a zillion people astray."

She has spent her whole life on this stuff and the Wiki article does mention what she was talking about as the roots: western music and cowboy ballads.

Remember, the Dust Bowl migrants of the 20s ended up going to the California farming valleys. They brought their music with them. Nashville turned toward big band country music in the 40s. But the Dust Bowl guys like the Maddox Brothers and Buck Owens were huge.

These were the influences of Merle Haggard and a lot of later country stars like Glen Campbell in the 40s and 50s. All Californians. But this became the dominant sound of country. It's something different than the folk, gospel and blues that were dominant in the south in the 1900s-1920s before the dust bowl. Outlaw western, western music, cowboy ballads are different from folk, gospel and blues.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Jethro Tull

The decades old rumor is Jan Wimmer (who was exceptionally influential with the selection process from the start and still holds a lot of influence) is still holding a grudge from ~1970 against Tull (specifically Ian Anderson).

This is a shame. During the 1970's they were on a very short list of the top rock bands around. Considering some that have been inducted (a few who really aren't rock & roll and a few who by no means should be viewed as hall of fame level), their exclusion is borderline criminal.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

The only thing I will say about Parton is that many of her songs started country rock and she has always been on the ground of folk/country.

I got myself in a big jam at dinner a few months ago with a country music expert who laughed at me for assuming country came out of the south and folk music. She said it's a typical thing to say. Apparently what we know as country came out of California and has entirely different roots than we assume. Parton plays a big part, but it's not her Tennessee/folksy hillbilly that is the influence.

If country music is limited to Merle Haggard and Buck Owens then yes. If you go back to Jimmy Roger's and before, it was Appalachian folk music with a little delta blues on the side.

Bakersfield as a center for country music began after the dust bowl migration. Those who started that genre relocated from places where country music was ubiquitous for decades.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

They're clueless about rap. Missy Elliott in the HOF over people like Rakim, Tribe, Outkast, Nas etc. is just funny.

You should look into Kenny Loggins catalog, he's great.

Yeah, who didn't rock out to "House at Pooh Corner" back in the day?

I already know that I shouldn't peruse the lists of who is in undeservedly and who isn't but should be.

Google Search

40m + albums sold for Eliott, best selling female rapper of all-time. She's popular and ground breaking.

Missy Elliott’s Six Studio Albums Certified Platinum

Missy Elliot has broken the world record as her six studio albums have been certified [RIAA] Platinum or higher in the US.

guardian.ng

I just looked up Loggins. Does he only do songs for movies? I heard of Danger Zone and Footloose. What kind of greatness are you looking at here? He seems like a Afternoon Special kind of act.

Don't even think of backing down on this. I would have guessed that Logins is in and Missy isn't was a really good example of HoF ridiculousness.

There's no way out of the overall mess, and I've seen enough, "Wait, what???"-worthy names in this thread from both directions to gently see myself out, adding only to @upstater that I'd totally welcome an opportunity to ask your expert friend lots of questions.

For pure simplicity's sake, I'd offer to anybody the recommendation of the PBS "Country Music" film by Ken Burns. There is much reliable history, a broad survey that includes enough different streams to aid a watcher in determining what (unless nothing) they'd like to explore further, and a good platform from which to learn other sources to find answers to the inevitable, "What did they miss or get wrong?" curiosities that some folksvwill always have.

 

[storrsroars]

Fell for the hype, eh?

Actually, in my teens/early 20s, my mother worked for a manufacturing division of Capitol Records in Stamford. Every month she'd come home with a list of LPs I could buy for $1. I took a flyer on a lot of stuff. That said, I liked a lot of prog in the 70s and there were elements of that song I really liked. I also picked up a couple of Triumviat albums among the 300 or so records I got thru mom. Still play 'em occasionally.

 

[superjohn]

Hans the rapper.

 

[Waquoit]

Actually, in my teens/early 20s, my mother worked for a manufacturing division of Capitol Records in Stamford. Every month she'd come home with a list of LPs I could buy for $1. I took a flyer on a lot of stuff. That said, I liked a lot of prog in the 70s and there were elements of that song I really liked. I also picked up a couple of Triumviat albums among the 300 or so records I got thru mom. Still play 'em occasionally.

It wasn't because you thought it was a secret reunion of The Beatles?

 

[Waquoit]

The decades old rumor is Jan Wimmer (who was exceptionally influential with the selection process from the start and still holds a lot of influence) is still holding a grudge from ~1970 against Tull (specifically Ian Anderson).

He was the one black balling The Monkees as well. But he's gone now. Finally.

 

[Madmannsucks]

For me until Hubert Sumlin is inducted the hall of Fame is a sham. Too bad they couldn’t have done it while he was still alive. What a travesty.

 

[CL82]

I was specifically called out for assuming these roots.

I mentioned Appalachia and folk as roots, specifically the Scottish hillybilly stuff. She laughed and said "you got that from Songcatcher which has lead a zillion people astray."

She has spent her whole life on this stuff and the Wiki article does mention what she was talking about as the roots: western music and cowboy ballads.

Remember, the Dust Bowl migrants of the 20s ended up going to the California farming valleys. They brought their music with them. Nashville turned toward big band country music in the 40s. But the Dust Bowl guys like the Maddox Brothers and Buck Owens were huge.

These were the influences of Merle Haggard and a lot of later country stars like Glen Campbell in the 40s and 50s. All Californians. But this became the dominant sound of country. It's something different than the folk, gospel and blues that were dominant in the south in the 1900s-1920s before the dust bowl. Outlaw western, western music, cowboy ballads are different from folk, gospel and blues.

I don't know, but I'm still inclined to go with your original impression. When you talk about "roots" you're talking about earliest influences. No doubt, as though Wikipedia article notes, there were also western influences, but influences aren't roots.

Just my humble opinion.

Whenever someone mentions Glenn Campbell, I can't help but think that he was a part of the original Wrecking Crew. He was an extraordinarily talented sessions musician who did not read music, but eventually grew into the artist that we all know.