Returners, newcomers fighting for minutes on deep, talented team

[Waquoit]

A comment on Liv’s stats. Liv’s scoring is her least important stat-line imo. She is usually the 4th or 5th scoring option on the floor for UConn.

But what happens against the good teams is that she turns into a ball stopper. That's why they got Dorka.

 

[Gus Mahler]

Was Faris as a freshman better than Muhl was as a freshman? I remember when I asked why UConn needed Muhl when they had Coombs and you said only positive things about Muhl. They were both good on defense but not accurate outside shooters. Muhl surprised me with her outside shooting last season. It was better than I thought it would be.

Color me (pleasantly) surprised as well.

And did they ever figure out who put the bop in the bop shoo bop? Is it a conspiracy theory? 8*)

 

[donalddoowop]

Color me (pleasantly) surprised as well.

And did they ever figure out who put the bop in the bop shoo bop? Is it a conspiracy theory? 8*)

Yes, The Eldorados, Vee Jay recording artists. Listen to "I'll Be Forever Loving You", by them.

 

[oldude]

But what happens against the good teams is that she turns into a ball stopper. That's why they got Dorka.

A ball stopper is someone who, once they have the ball in their hands, holds onto it, typically going one on one, while the rest of the team stands around watching. In WBB, Chennedy Carter is a classic example of a ball stopper.

Liv is anything but a ball stopper. She’s a very good passer from the high post, sets screens for teammates and constantly moves on offense. Dorko will need to do more than score to be effective in UConn’s offense. I hope she does. Time will tell.

 

[oldude]

Nah we don't agree.
The part where Geno said Nika been in American for 18 Months and still thinks she never fouled anyone might have been hyperbole of the highest order.

Exactly. When Geno offers up hyperbole it’s usually accompanied by a sly smile or a chuckle as was the comment about Nika never fouling since she’s been the U.S. There was no such sly smile or chuckle when he shifted his remarks to how Nika is not like anyone else on this team and then praised her for being relentless.

 

[CocoHusky]

Exactly. When Geno offers up hyperbole it’s usually accompanied by a sly smile or a chuckle as was the comment about Nika never fouling since she’s been the U.S. There was no such sly smile or chuckle when he shifted his remarks to how Nika is not like anyone else on this team and then praised her for being relentless.

 

[CocoHusky]

Well, three factual statements, if you will.

1)- The premium talent pool continues to grow and be dispersed to more and more teams in NCAA Woman’s D-1 basketball.
2)-UCONN has the most talented roster, top to bottom, in years.
)-You/we are left unsatisfied by the final result in the past four years.

My (hypothetical) question to you is:

A)- Prmeaningful game time to players that have ‘earned’ court time in practice, exposing them to stressful real game situations, have them learn and MAYBE go 30-4 and win the last game of the season?
OR
B)- stick with a short list of athletes playing most of the minutes, Increasing the possibilities of injury, run them out, ignore exposing newer players ( that bust it in practice) to real time critical game time situations, go 33-1 and lose the last game of the season?

Please don’t hedge.
I’m trying to make an honest point.
One or the other only.
TY.

If you are trying to make a point then surely that point can be made without forcing me to choose between two pre contrived options. I don't accepts the statements you make as facts. I believe @diggerfoot recently posted something contrary to what you state as fact regarding the talent pool actually growing.

 

[Zanzman]

I was hooked

 

[Waquoit]

Liv is anything but a ball stopper. She’s a very good passer from the high post, sets screens for teammates and constantly moves on offense.

Not against the good teams. They back up covering the passing lanes and she either hoists up a brick or has to have someone come get the ball from her. That's ball stopping to me.

 

[oldude]

Not against the good teams. They back up covering the passing lanes and she either hoists up a brick or has to have someone come get the ball from her. That's ball stopping to me.

I assume you think SC is a good team. Liv lead the team with 6 assists, all to Paige, 3 of which were on backdoor cuts. She also set several solid screens that freed up Paige for open midrange jumpers.

UConn doesn’t beat SC without Paige’s 31 pts. But Paige doesn’t get 31 without Liv’s passing and screening.

 

[CocoHusky]

I assume you think SC is a good team. Liv lead the team with 6 assists, all to Paige, 3 of which were on backdoor cuts. She also set several solid screens that freed up Paige for open midrange jumpers.

UConn doesn’t beat SC without Paige’s 31 pts. But Paige doesn’t get 31 without Liv’s passing and screening.

Paige would not need to get 31 if Liv wasn't shooting 3 for 10 and committing 4 PFs and never getting to the FT line or get out rebounded by Brea Beal.

 

[MSGRET]

Paige would not need to get 31 if Liv wasn't shooting 3 for 10 and committing 4 PFs and never getting to the FT line or get out rebounded by Brea Beal.

So lets look at the bigger picture, you seem to be placing most of the blame on Liv. Here are the facts.

CW played 34 minutes, was 3-11, 6pts, 0-2 3pts and FT's, 4 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 3RB's, and 0 STLS & BLKS
Liv played 30 minutes, was 3-10, 6pts, 0-1 3pts, 0FT, 1 T/O, 6 ASTS, 7RB's, 2 STLS and 1BLK
Evina played 24 minutes, was 0-4, 0pts, 0-2 3pts, 0FT, 2 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 1RB, 0 STLS, and 1 BLK
Aubrey played 22 minutes, was 2-7, 4pts, 0-1 3pts and FT's, 3 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 7RB's, 1 STL, and 3 BLKS
Paige played 45 minutes, was 14-26, 31pts, 1-6 3pts, 2-2 FT's, 3 T/O's, 5 ASTS, 4RB's, 1 BLK, and 6 STLS
Nika played 35 minutes, was 3-6, 8pts, 1-3 3pts, 1-1 FT's, 2 T/O's, 2 ASTS, 3RB's, 1 BLK, and 1 STL
Aaliyah played 35 minutes, was 4-9, 8pts, 0-2 FT's, 0 T/O's, 2 ASTS, 5RB's, 1 BLK, and 1 STL

So most of the blame can go to 3 players, all of them are the Juniors and were a combined 6-25 with a total of 6 points, 0-5 3pts, 0-2 FT's, 7 T/O's, 6 ASTS (all Liv), 11RB's, 2 STLS (all Liv), 2 BLKS. While the underclassmen were for a combined 23-48 with a total 51 points, 2-10 3pts, 3-6 FT's, 10 T/O's, 9 ASTS, 18RB's, 11 STLS, and 6 BLKS.

So if you want to blame someone, just don't lay it all on Liv, lay it on CW, Liv, and Evina because all three of them didn't show, but CW and Evina had more to blame in the category of who showed and who didn't when it comes to the stats.

 

[Purchase1]

So lets look at the bigger picture, you seem to be placing most of the blame on Liv. Here are the facts.

CW played 34 minutes, was 3-11, 6pts, 0-2 3pts and FT's, 4 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 3RB's, and 0 STLS & BLKS
Liv played 30 minutes, was 3-10, 6pts, 0-1 3pts, 0FT, 1 T/O, 6 ASTS, 7RB's, 2 STLS and 1BLK
Evina played 24 minutes, was 0-4, 0pts, 0-2 3pts, 0FT, 2 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 1RB, 0 STLS, and 1 BLK
Aubrey played 22 minutes, was 2-7, 4pts, 0-1 3pts and FT's, 3 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 7RB's, 1 STL, and 3 BLKS
Paige played 45 minutes, was 14-26, 31pts, 1-6 3pts, 2-2 FT's, 3 T/O's, 5 ASTS, 4RB's, 1 BLK, and 6 STLS
Nika played 35 minutes, was 3-6, 8pts, 1-3 3pts, 1-1 FT's, 2 T/O's, 2 ASTS, 3RB's, 1 BLK, and 1 STL
Aaliyah played 35 minutes, was 4-9, 8pts, 0-2 FT's, 0 T/O's, 2 ASTS, 5RB's, 1 BLK, and 1 STL

So most of the blame can go to 3 players, all of them are the Juniors and were a combined 6-25 with a total of 6 points, 0-5 3pts, 0-2 FT's, 7 T/O's, 6 ASTS (all Liv), 11RB's, 2 STLS (all Liv), 2 BLKS. While the underclassmen were for a combined 23-48 with a total 51 points, 2-10 3pts, 3-6 FT's, 10 T/O's, 9 ASTS, 18RB's, 11 STLS, and 6 BLKS.

So if you want to blame someone, just don't lay it all on Liv, lay it on CW, Liv, and Evina because all three of them didn't show, but CW and Evina had more to blame in the category of who showed and who didn't when it comes to the stats.

This is a fantastic post!

 

[CocoHusky]

So lets look at the bigger picture, you seem to be placing most of the blame on Liv. Here are the facts.

CW played 34 minutes, was 3-11, 6pts, 0-2 3pts and FT's, 4 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 3RB's, and 0 STLS & BLKS
Liv played 30 minutes, was 3-10, 6pts, 0-1 3pts, 0FT, 1 T/O, 6 ASTS, 7RB's, 2 STLS and 1BLK
Evina played 24 minutes, was 0-4, 0pts, 0-2 3pts, 0FT, 2 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 1RB, 0 STLS, and 1 BLK
Aubrey played 22 minutes, was 2-7, 4pts, 0-1 3pts and FT's, 3 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 7RB's, 1 STL, and 3 BLKS
Paige played 45 minutes, was 14-26, 31pts, 1-6 3pts, 2-2 FT's, 3 T/O's, 5 ASTS, 4RB's, 1 BLK, and 6 STLS
Nika played 35 minutes, was 3-6, 8pts, 1-3 3pts, 1-1 FT's, 2 T/O's, 2 ASTS, 3RB's, 1 BLK, and 1 STL
Aaliyah played 35 minutes, was 4-9, 8pts, 0-2 FT's, 0 T/O's, 2 ASTS, 5RB's, 1 BLK, and 1 STL

So most of the blame can go to 3 players, all of them are the Juniors and were a combined 6-25 with a total of 6 points, 0-5 3pts, 0-2 FT's, 7 T/O's, 6 ASTS (all Liv), 11RB's, 2 STLS (all Liv), 2 BLKS. While the underclassmen were for a combined 23-48 with a total 51 points, 2-10 3pts, 3-6 FT's, 10 T/O's, 9 ASTS, 18RB's, 11 STLS, and 6 BLKS.

So if you want to blame someone, just don't lay it all on Liv, lay it on CW, Liv, and Evina because all three of them didn't show, but CW and Evina had more to blame in the category of who showed and who didn't when it comes to the stats.

Seriously? I'm not sure I see a need to blame anyone for a game that UCONN won. But if we are going to really continue to single out individual players for individual good games or play a real blame game let's start with the games the team lost. The analysis shouldn't take that long there were only two loses last year. You go first, I'll follow up. I guarantee what you will find are individual games where every player (even Paige) played poorly and games where those same players played well.

 

[eebmg]

So lets look at the bigger picture, you seem to be placing most of the blame on Liv. Here are the facts.

CW played 34 minutes, was 3-11, 6pts, 0-2 3pts and FT's, 4 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 3RB's, and 0 STLS & BLKS
Liv played 30 minutes, was 3-10, 6pts, 0-1 3pts, 0FT, 1 T/O, 6 ASTS, 7RB's, 2 STLS and 1BLK
Evina played 24 minutes, was 0-4, 0pts, 0-2 3pts, 0FT, 2 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 1RB, 0 STLS, and 1 BLK
Aubrey played 22 minutes, was 2-7, 4pts, 0-1 3pts and FT's, 3 T/O's, 0 ASTS, 7RB's, 1 STL, and 3 BLKS
Paige played 45 minutes, was 14-26, 31pts, 1-6 3pts, 2-2 FT's, 3 T/O's, 5 ASTS, 4RB's, 1 BLK, and 6 STLS
Nika played 35 minutes, was 3-6, 8pts, 1-3 3pts, 1-1 FT's, 2 T/O's, 2 ASTS, 3RB's, 1 BLK, and 1 STL
Aaliyah played 35 minutes, was 4-9, 8pts, 0-2 FT's, 0 T/O's, 2 ASTS, 5RB's, 1 BLK, and 1 STL

So most of the blame can go to 3 players, all of them are the Juniors and were a combined 6-25 with a total of 6 points, 0-5 3pts, 0-2 FT's, 7 T/O's, 6 ASTS (all Liv), 11RB's, 2 STLS (all Liv), 2 BLKS. While the underclassmen were for a combined 23-48 with a total 51 points, 2-10 3pts, 3-6 FT's, 10 T/O's, 9 ASTS, 18RB's, 11 STLS, and 6 BLKS.

So if you want to blame someone, just don't lay it all on Liv, lay it on CW, Liv, and Evina because all three of them didn't show, but CW and Evina had more to blame in the category of who showed and who didn't when it comes to the stats.

Pure Hypothetical.

Under what conditions in the SCar game (if any?) would Paige have not gotten NPOY?

1) She plays an average generally efficient Paige game with no 4th Q / OT heroics but UConn still wins?
2) She plays a below average (semi stinker?) game but UConn still wins?
3) She plays the same out of her mind game as she did but UConn loses?
4) Average efficient Paige game and UConn loses?
5) Below average game and UConn loses?


My guess is cases 2-5 may have cost her the NPOY.

 

[MSGRET]

Seriously? I'm not sure I see a need to blame anyone for a game that UCONN won. But if we are going to really continue to single out individual players for individual good games or play a real blame game let's start with the games the team lost. The analysis shouldn't take that long there were only two loses last year. You go first, I'll follow up. I guarantee what you will find are individual games where every player (even Paige) played poorly and games where those same players played well.

Paige would not need to get 31 if Liv wasn't shooting 3 for 10 and committing 4 PFs and never getting to the FT line or get out rebounded by Brea Beal.

Your post, so I believe that you are blaming Liv, while overlooking the other two who stunk more than Liv.

 

[MSGRET]

Pure Hypothetical.

Under what conditions in the SCar game (if any?) would Paige have not gotten NPOY?

1) She plays an average generally efficient Paige game with no 4th Q / OT heroics but UConn still wins?
2) She plays a below average (semi stinker?) game but UConn still wins?
3) She plays the same out of her mind game as she did but UConn loses?
4) Average efficient Paige game and UConn loses?
5) Below average game and UConn loses?


My guess is cases 2-5 may have cost her the NPOY.

No where in my post or in the post that I was commenting to had anything to do with Paige winning the NPOY. I was rebutting @CocoHusky post where he was "in my opinion" trying to make Liv the scapegoat for Paige having to become Super Husky to beat SC.

 

[Stymie]

If you are trying to make a point then surely that point can be made without forcing me to choose between two pre contrived options. I don't accepts the statements you make as facts. I believe @diggerfoot recently posted something contrary to what you state as fact regarding the talent pool actually growing.

Please don’t misrepresent my view.
With personal conditioning and fundamental coaching from a young age, the proliferation of elite traveling teams and the addition of international talent, the availability of top end talent is definitely increasing and being spread among more and more teams.
Hence parity and an enhanced quality of play for the top 20-25 teams.
This is evident in the recruiting process, where players are sometimes tracked from the age of 14-15.
Feel free to argue that.

 

[Waquoit]

So lets look at the bigger picture, you seem to be placing most of the blame on Liv. Here are the facts.

If Ono was all that Geno wouldn't be bringing in a senior at her spot.

 

[Heytherego]

If Ono was all that Geno wouldn't be bringing in a senior at her spot.

That’s just not true. Look at South Carolina, if Boston was all that they wouldn’t be bringing in Cardoso. Ono definitely needs to improve but even if she was playing at an all American level, Dorka wouldn’t be turned away.

 

[Waquoit]

That’s just not true. Look at South Carolina, if Boston was all that they wouldn’t be bringing in Cardoso. Ono definitely needs to improve but even if she was playing at an all American level, Dorka wouldn’t be turned away.

SC is not UConn. Geno has never been known to over-recruit. If Ono was playing at an AA level, she would have a ring and I doubt highly would be recruited over.

 

[MSGRET]

Who

SC is not UConn. Geno has never been known to over-recruit. If Ono was playing at an AA level, she would have a ring and I doubt highly would be recruited over.

Who did Geno recruit over Ono? Did Geno come out and STATE that Dorka was recruited over Ono? If that's what you are implying then didn't Geno recruit Azzi over Paige, or Caroline over CW? Dorka approached Geno not the other way around, so there wasn't any recruitment. With Anna leaving he had a chance to bring in an established player who would fill her spot with more height who also can play either the 4 or 5 spot. Now for the AA level statement, you can say the same with CW, BUT you didn't, because she hasn't earned any AA status either.

 

[CocoHusky]

Paige would not need to get 31 if Liv wasn't shooting 3 for 10 and committing 4 PFs and never getting to the FT line or get out rebounded by Brea Beal.

Your post, so I believe that you are blaming Liv, while overlooking the other two who stunk more than Liv.

This is a Game UCONN won-so again I don't see the need to blame anyone. Although will not use the word blame I have no issues with your assessment that several players could have played better in this game as long as you include Liv in that group of players that could have played better.

My post was written in response to this @oldude statement :

"UConn doesn’t beat SC without Paige’s 31 pts. But Paige doesn’t get 31 without Liv’s passing and screening."

My POV is this is yet another attempt to inflate the contributions of one player (Liv) over another (Paige) and well beyond any reasonable interpretation what really happened. What really happened was this: Liv was substituted for with 2:28 remaining in regulation play and SC holding a 4 Point lead. It took two Paige buckets and UCONN defending 3 SC FGA at the buzzer to get the game in overtime. During that stretch Liv was a spectator while Aaliyah and Aubrey were battling Boston and Saxton on the boards. Liv would return to the game with 1:48 and UCONN down 3. By the time Liv returned to the game Paige had scored 6 points from one "unassisted" basket + one basket from an assist from Aaliyah and two shots from the foul line. Paige's two baskets during the OT which brought UCONN from 3 down to put them up by 1 were both "unassisted". Paige's final basket was assisted by Liv. Why was Liv a spectator during much of crunch time? It was because she had 4 fouls and she had not made a shot since the 2nd quarter of the game. To her credit Liv dished out 6 assists in this game all of them on Paige baskets.
Pointing out what actually happen is not blaming, consider it a measure to cure this hyper inflation.

 

[oldude]

SC is not UConn. Geno has never been known to over-recruit. If Ono was playing at an AA level, she would have a ring and I doubt highly would be recruited over.

If you were talking about 10 years ago, I would agree with you. But the game is changing and so is Geno. SC & Stanford both have loaded and deep rosters.

Geno made a conscious effort to sign more players bringing in transfers like Nat, Z, Touly, Evelyn & Dorka. He also started recruiting foreign players, something he had done only rarely before, with Kia, Anna, Evelyn, Nika, Aaliyah & Dorka.

Geno used to bring in maybe 3 recruits per year. Last year he brought in 6. This year he brought in another 4 plus a transfer. He has 15 scholarships available. If Anna had not decided to turn pro, he would have filled every single one this year, the same as Tara & Dawn.

 

[CocoHusky]

No where in my post or in the post that I was commenting to had anything to do with Paige winning the NPOY. I was rebutting @CocoHusky post where he was "in my opinion" trying to make Liv the scapegoat for Paige having to become Super Husky to beat SC.

I guess the words "Pure Hypothetical" which is the way the post started didn't do much for you?