Referee Baiting by a Head Coach | The Boneyard

Referee Baiting by a Head Coach

I

Improviser

Joined
Apr 16, 2020
Messages
2,015
Reaction Score
3,436
How effective is it as a strategy? Examples: Deliberate technicals, constant questioning of most calls, sarcasm after a non-call.

If habitual(game after game), do referees get intimidated and "balance out the calls" for the rest of the game, or do they not care and even look for an excuse to T up the coach and get him thrown out?

Do referees remember and hold it against that particular coach for the other games on the schedule that they referee?
 
Huskybass said:
I think JC made his point and got respect for the most part, although a few were eager to T him up and toss him it seemed. But on the whole I think it worked for him.

Interesting thread.
Expand ...
It did work for him. It doesn’t work for most.
 
Improviser said:
How effective is it as a strategy? Examples: Deliberate technicals, constant questioning of most calls, sarcasm after a non-call.

If habitual(game after game), do referees get intimidated and "balance out the calls" for the rest of the game, or do they not care and even look for an excuse to T up the coach and get him thrown out?

Do referees remember and hold it against that particular coach for the other games on the schedule that they referee?
Expand ...
It is a very effective strategy employed by almost every hall of fame coach.

It was also something that Kevin Ollie never understood or employed. Sorrry for the gratuitous KO bash but that was a pet peeve of mine.
 
Palatine said:
It is a very effective strategy employed by almost every hall of fame coach.

It was also something that Kevin Ollie never understood or employed. Sorrry for the gratuitous KO bash but that was a pet peeve of mine.
Expand ...
There was that one time he swiped a whole pile of papers onto the floor. I think he got Td up for that. Would have loved to have seen more fire like that the last 2 or 3 years, but he just wasn't the same guy.
 
.-.
In youth basketball it doesn’t work and just makes you look like a cokkboy. But the same tactics work at a higher level. I think fans getting on the refs work better though except for uconn home aac games where the refs seemed to enjoy enraging the fans.
 
Kenny11 said:
In youth basketball it doesn’t work and just makes you look like a cokkboy. But the same tactics work at a higher level. I think fans getting on the refs work better though except for uconn home aac games where the refs seemed to enjoy enraging the fans.
Expand ...

I’m amazed how many parents are ok leaving their kids under the supervision and tutelage of guys who act like that....
 
It’s just like every other instance where game theory can be applied. Most situations in life, both long and short-term, are constant games of poker.
 
It worked for Calhoun but Calhoun is an intimidating guy. Good coaches know how to work refs into making calls for them but most wouldn't flat out scare refs into making calls like JC did.
 
Huskybass said:
There was that one time he swiped a whole pile of papers onto the floor. I think he got Td up for that. Would have loved to have seen more fire like that the last 2 or 3 years, but he just wasn't the same guy.
Expand ...
Momentum was swinging our way in a huge, nationally broadcast game against Maryland at MSG, and KO decided to finally finally show he had some life in him at the worst possible moment.
 
.-.
the Q said:
I’m amazed how many parents are ok leaving their kids under the supervision and tutelage of guys who act like that....
Expand ...
This reminded me of a game years ago my son was playing in a middle school rec league. The refs were all older teens. One of the asst coaches for our opposition, kind of loud but nice guy, was getting on the refs (they were pretty bad). They warned him. Just after halftime he said something that actually wasn’t aimed at the refs. He was unhappy with one of his players. One of the refs thought it was aimed at him and tossed the guy out of the gym. I was cracking up.
 
JC at Northeastern vs our Huskies in the Colonial Classic finals. He noticed the refs were thinking UConns supposed to get the calls and win their own tournament. Well not too far into the game we’re getting all the calls and I see this jamoke of a coach rip his jacket off and start chasing refs on the court from his sidelines. Well he got the Big T and thereafter he also began to get the calls. Man I can tell you I didn’t like that coach while watching this game at the HCC. Little did I know;)
 
Kenny11 said:
In youth basketball it doesn’t work and just makes you look like a cokkboy. But the same tactics work at a higher level. I think fans getting on the refs work better though except for uconn home aac games where the refs seemed to enjoy enraging the fans.
Expand ...

Was just going to say, HS level and down it doesn’t work. Mostly because the refs are so awful and not nuanced enough to play that game. They just are bad.
 
Mr. French said:
Was just going to say, HS level and down it doesn’t work. Mostly because the refs are so awful and not nuanced enough to play that game. They just are bad.
Expand ...

When I was playing HS hoops in the 70's it was up to the schools to get the refs for their home games. LOL the home cookings were unbelievable at times, almost laughable. Good news is whenever we played Southington I never saw John Fontana do our games. Still he didn't like our coaches Norb Fahey and Ed Zajac in the those days so when we had him do any of our games it was never pretty, think it stemmed from our heated baseball rivalry but whatever it was always fun. Also Norb and Joe Schiopucci who coached Wilcox Tech out of the same town were best friends until Joe threw a couple zebras out there who homed us to death, they didn't talk for 5-6 years after that game, maybe more. Good ol days.
 
Kenny11 said:
In youth basketball it doesn’t work and just makes you look like a cokkboy.
Expand ...
Great point. It's almost the opposite in youth sports. I've coached middle school basketball at the private school where I teach for eight years and by this point I know almost all the refs who work our games. Refs aren't perfect, but if I notice, for example, that the other team is spending more than three seconds in the paint or getting away with moving picks, I'll just talk with the ref and check in whether s/he has noticed this in a calm, even way. More often than not, the refs will notice what I point out and then make the call.

The way the coach act usually directly correlates with how the team acts. Respectful coach who talks to the ref when there are discrepancies, then the kids are usually very respectful and have great sportsmanship. Coach barks at the ref at every mishap and then kids usually act like twerps.

I treat it almost as a culture thing. In fact, I've even asked refs to T-up my players if they complain too much.
 
.-.
I've coached high school ball for a long time, while I can't speak to the college level I can say it's a 50/50 thing for me.

You do tend to know all the refs after a while, and you can develop working relationships with them, but (in my case) you can also develop working animosity with them.

After I got T'd by a guy I have seeeeeeeeeeerious beef with stemming from an AAU program his father runs, that I left to coach a better program. We carried out a 30 second staredown that would have made Dan Hurley proud.

I know it has nothing to do with the question at hand, I just really can't stand the little weasel.
 
My only argument with a ref was in a state semi final. The ref/umpire called my player for a foot fault, then gave him a warning for questioning the call.

They were still warming up. The match hadn't start.
 
MDHuskFan said:
Baseball manager ejection>B-ball coach Tech/ejection IMO
Expand ...
It’s interesting how this works across sports. In baseball there’s no team penalty for being tossed. Soccer- coach can get a card or removed but no real penalty. Football can get you a 10-15 yard penalty which could alter a game depending on the situation. But basketball may have the biggest penalty with free throw and possession which can definitely affect the outcome of a game. Ironically, it may have the biggest positive impact in basketball as well if done correctly (player energy, ref mind games, etc)
 
Speaking from personal experience working games, I wouldn't say it influences me to get "make up" calls, but occasionally, it will get me to make sure that I'm not really missing what the coach claims we aren't calling. I've found that more times than not, if you actually address the coach in a professional manner and honestly explain that you may have missed it, or don't have the same vantage point as he/she, the technical can be avoided by talking the coach down a bit. Some don't want to hear any part of it, and that's when the T's start flying.

And for those that love to complain about how bad the officials are, I'd encourage you to seek out your local officiating board and sign up. The travel middle school and high school level game moves at a very high pace, and the officials never have the same vantage point as you do up in the stands. Standing on the court, and not having the luxury of instant replay, makes it a lot harder than you would think. Yes, there are definitely some officials who lack the training and get in over their head, but constant berating from ignorant parents doesn't help fix the problem. The statistics will show you that the average age of officials (all sports) is about 42 (was 20 in 1976 for comparison). If parents/coaches keep running off the younger, newer officials because they don't want to deal with their crap for $20-$30 a game, there won't be any officials left to cover all of the games. Then what? A game without officials is just a scrimmage...

Sorry for the rant, I take this stuff personal.
 
M.S.G. said:
I've coached high school ball for a long time, while I can't speak to the college level I can say it's a 50/50 thing for me.

You do tend to know all the refs after a while, and you can develop working relationships with them, but (in my case) you can also develop working animosity with them.

After I got T'd by a guy I have seeeeeeeeeeerious beef with stemming from an AAU program his father runs, that I left to coach a better program. We carried out a 30 second staredown that would have made Dan Hurley proud.

I know it has nothing to do with the question at hand, I just really can't stand the little weasel.
Expand ...
;):)
 
temery said:
My only argument with a ref was in a state semi final. The ref/umpire called my player for a foot fault, then gave him a warning for questioning the call.

They were still warming up. The match hadn't start.
Expand ...
Haha!

The only time I truly got heated was in the fourth quarter and we were down by 1 with 4 seconds to go. They missed a shot, we secured the defensive rebound and I tried calling a time out but the ref "didn't hear me call time out". I incredulously responded with "what coach WOULDN'T call a timeout in that situation!" Once the game was over, he apologized to me, we moved on and we've had a good relationship since.
 
.-.
Riding the refs is essentially the equivalence of being a used car salesman.

people think they’re slimy, no good, annoying, irritable etc.

but damn, it’s effective.
 
I admit, I get way too into the game when I'm coaching and usually complain a lot ... I think I'm a bit of Hurley in that regard, I'm so into it I can't stop myself from freaking out about a terrible, important call.

But I've gotten better in the last few years because I realize, at least at the HS level (where I'm not a "respected" legendary coach like a Calhoun or others who ride the refs) it's probably making it worse rather than better.

But most of it is a natural reaction to poor calls that affect my team, so there's only so much "holding back" in me, lol.
 
It's not "baiting" the refs so much as it is "working" the refs. At the college basketball level, it's is a conversation. Calhoun commented on pretty much all the questionable calls early and often, but quietly. That puts him in a position to question a call loudly, if necessary. It is something you learn over time. Calhoun tells a story of how early on he'd question every bad call loudly and vehemently. One time a ref, I don't remember which anymore, walks up to him and says "C'mon Jimmy you are up by 20 and we're doing a good job." Calhoun learned to be more tactical after that. That's something Ollie didn't get. He'd either be disengaged or pouty the bulk of the time. The paper push was an entertaining move but it was absolutely at the wrong time. The great ones really understand the timing. It is an art form and it gives them an edge.

I have a lot stories about coaching (as we all do) and I have shared a few here over the years. The biggest point I'd make is if you are a middle aged man (or woman) and you find yourself yelling at a middle school aged ref, you are wrong even if you are right. Like another poster said above, if a ref is missing things or making over a mistake, you call him over during a dead period and you mention it to him. If it is really bad, talk to the other coach first and then both do it, but do it calmly. It is a teaching moment. Most kids do not have the tools yet to interact with an animated overly forceful adult.

One story I think I've told here is about a select soccer (probably U-15) with adult refs. It was important game in the standings (1 vs. 2). The guy I coached with was an excellent coach and one of the nicest guys generally. As was pointed out, the local league hires the refs and in this particular game it showed. They were making abysmal calls and non-calls right from the start. As a coach or a player you don't mind bad reffing so much so long as it is consistently bad both ways. This wasn't. My buddy made a "call if both ways" argument ("if it is 'x' there then it has to be 'x' here too') and the ref says "That's it coach if I hear one more word out of you, you're gone!" My buddy just looks at me and I said "Yeah, Jim, I've got it" and take over the vocal coaching of the game. The next play the ref decides to make a point and let's a kid get a pass way behind the defense and I mean literally 10 yards behind them. The kid drills a hot shot toward the left corner and my keeper dives and slaps it out. "I yell out "Nice Roberto, nice work! If you can stop them when they are that far offsides you can stop anything." The kids on the bench who saw the interaction between the other coach and the ref look up at me with a "Oh shit coach you are going to get tossed" look on their faces and I said to them with a smile "What? He's my player, I can say anything I want to him."
 
uchuskies2009 said:
Speaking from personal experience working games, I wouldn't say it influences me to get "make up" calls, but occasionally, it will get me to make sure that I'm not really missing what the coach claims we aren't calling. I've found that more times than not, if you actually address the coach in a professional manner and honestly explain that you may have missed it, or don't have the same vantage point as he/she, the technical can be avoided by talking the coach down a bit. Some don't want to hear any part of it, and that's when the T's start flying.

And for those that love to complain about how bad the officials are, I'd encourage you to seek out your local officiating board and sign up. The travel middle school and high school level game moves at a very high pace, and the officials never have the same vantage point as you do up in the stands. Standing on the court, and not having the luxury of instant replay, makes it a lot harder than you would think. Yes, there are definitely some officials who lack the training and get in over their head, but constant berating from ignorant parents doesn't help fix the problem. The statistics will show you that the average age of officials (all sports) is about 42 (was 20 in 1976 for comparison). If parents/coaches keep running off the younger, newer officials because they don't want to deal with their crap for $20-$30 a game, there won't be any officials left to cover all of the games. Then what? A game without officials is just a scrimmage...

Sorry for the rant, I take this stuff personal.
Expand ...

Parents and coaches are pretty cruel to referees. I don't envy your job but thank you for it. People forget that's it's basically impossible to be objective when you're watching your team or kid play. I've scouted more games than I can count with parents and coaches going absolutely ballistic on referees, and can't help but think that I thought that game was called pretty fairly despite the tenor in the room.
 
I think along with developing a better offensive philosophy, learning to work the refs properly will be the next step in Hurley's development as a head coach. People on here like to talk about it all being tactical or whatever (and sometimes it is), but it's pretty apparent at time he's out of control. It will come with age and experience at this level. Calhoun had to learn too, just like everyone
 
I feel like this is a safe space :mad: so I can share my G.O.A.T. referee tale.

2 years ago I coached varsity girls' hoops, tragically terrible program that I took over. Progress was there, but we shot TWENTY FOUR PERCENT from the field for the season. I legitimately needed everything to go my way to win. Traps, pressure, rebounding, and of course.. Officiating.

Potentially the worst board I've ever seen, it's a lopsided conference where the big schools just destroy the small schools and it's been that way for years - so all the quality referees are on the boys' games, and the girls get the bottom of the barrel.

My wife won 3 state championships in high school, partly because of who she played with (former UConn women's star). She's a gem, but she's perhaps wound a bit tight. When I coached boys hoops she would be all over the referees and well, there's TONS of people there so you could hardly hear her. Girls basketball is a different animal, you can hear a pin drop most nights. My wife gained/earned/was saddled with a bit of a reputation, this was relayed to me by my AD (gigantic douchenozzle, but this isn't about him). I was basically like, this is by and far the worst collection of officials I've seen in my 15 year career - I am not going to sit there and watch these unqualified refs over their head screwing me night in and night out. He said, this is your first year here, sit and take it. Not good enough for me. I've won EVERYWHERE I've gone, not like my name or reputation precedes me or anything but I think I've been around the block enough to know what I'm talking about.

He warned me again, and said something to the effect of, she really needs to watch herself...

Fast forward a week or so. We're playing a pretty evenly matched game, and I'm getting screwed over by this absolute imbecile. Female referee, she was just a disaster. I've been told by a STATE TOURNAMENT OFFICIAL that she shouldn't even be doing middle school JV games. Yet here she is again! Had her like 5x that season. We fall behind to start the 3rd quarter, terrible call right in front of my wife. She stands up and says, "Why don't you just HAND them the game!"

BOOM. The referee gave my wife a technical in the stands.

To this day I've yet to get a definitive account as to whether you can even do that.

The woman crosses over the court to the table to get it in the book and I UNLOAD on her, I never curse. That's something I take pride in. Never curse in front of the kids, never at referees, that's my line. I say a few things like, "you are a disgrace to the game of basketball!" and "this is the most shameful thing I've ever seen in my life, you should be ashamed of yourself!" Boom, T's me. I turn around and kicked a chair as hard as I could, and her partner held her back from T'ing me again.

My girls came all the way back, one possession game in the 4th quarter and just couldn't get over the hump.

The opposing team's AD called our superintendent and said I should be fired. I had kind of reached my breaking point and was going to resign at the end of the season anyway. The superintendent wanted me suspended for the rest of the season, the AD actually had my back once he found out who the referee involved was. Suffice to say, I finished out the season and resigned. Just not the right place for me. I'm coaching boys' basketball again and only got one technical last year and we played in our conference championship game.

The end.

I want to add, that was one of two technicals that I got that season. It wasn't like I was getting a T every game. I probably deserved a few. I think that is an important part of the narrative, 2 T's in 20 games.

Felt good typing that all out, I know I'm a bit of a hothead, but I just have no patience for mediocrity. The kids are the ones who don't deserve to be screwed over. Trust me I've gotten many lectures about my behavior, and I maintain that the kids deserve better from the officials and it's my job to fight for them and defend them at all costs.

/Rant Over
 
Last edited:
.-.
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,547
Messages
4,581,745
Members
10,491
Latest member
7774Forever


Top Bottom