Ray Allen....not bad.

[Joobie]

I dunno, Kitaman...I am so totally conflicted. Ray, winning games for the Miami Hate! Makes me so sad just to see him wearing that uniform. I am hoping that he gets his 2nd ring & retires on top. Not sure how long I can play the "do I love Ray more than I hate the Heat" game!

 

[ctchamps]

If it wasn't for Ray I'd be rooting for San Antonio. With "The Shot" I want Miami to win more than before.

I want Ray to get his second ring. Adds to his cred. But more than that, if Miami pulls out the seventh, that clutch shot will be played over and over. That could influence a recruit to head to UConn. It may not, but no one can be certain how anyone makes decisions. I'll take anything that has the potential to help UConn.

 

[nomar]

For what it's worth - and I feel squeamish using him as a counter point - Doug Gottlieb tweeted in real time that it wasn't a foul.

I will treat that as a concession.

 

[nomar]

Some truth to that - I think the Spurs tried to get their best three-point defenders out on the floor (since Bosh can make them and there is nowhere to hide Duncan). But you can probably live with Bosh taking threes, since he hasn't taken one in a while, in exchange for better rebounding.

Diaw made a big mistake by leaping out to "contest" the James three when he wasn't even close enough to bother it. That let Bosh run free into the paint with nobody to challenge him for the board other than Ginobli.

Hindsight is 20/20 but watching it live, I thought it was crazy. I understand the thinking -- that you don't want a big man chasing a shooter. But first of all, the Heat didn't *need* to shoot a 3. Frank Vogel got killed for removing Hibbert, and then Pop takes out his only rim protector, twice! Second, it's not like Duncan is some stiff. He could have held his own, and maybe even blocked an obvious shot (as Bosh did twice down the stretch). And third, as it turned out, it weakened the Spurs' defensive rebounding. Obviously we don't know what would have happened if Duncan had been out there, but had everything else gone the way it did, Duncan would have snagged that first rebound. It was a bunch of 6'7" guys playing volleyball; Duncan would have grabbed it right out of the air.

Aggravating for anyone rooting for the Spurs.

 

[Gurleyman]

I will treat that as a concession.

Haha! Sometimes you make an argument and you know you've set yourself up for a check mate!

On another viewing, there is a little more of a body bump on the drive than I remembered. I certainly wouldn't have said it was a blown call if they blew the whistle, even with Ray getting ball on the swipe. They could have called it. It was certainly more contact than the infamous Wade-Nowitzki foul they called in 2006.

 

[Kitaman]

I don't know if he has been outplayed in this series, so much (only in the sense that Green has basically outplayed every Finals shooter ever with his accuracy). Ray has shot 60 percent on threes himself (12-20) and 70 percent in fourth quarters. Green has just been equally efficient with a lot more shots. The way the series has played out is that Ray is typically out there to provide spacing as LBJ and Wade drive, and nobody is helping off him, so he has gotten limited touches. San Antonio has used better ball movement and spacing, and Green has had more opportunities.

While I don't disagree with your stats, based on the eye test, Green 'was' killing him and everyone else. Its no way a reflection on Ray, or his performance but Green breaking the record, being hot and virtually unstoppable in games 1-5, was clearly the best role player on the court. So statistically maybe not but my eyes so a historic performance above and beyond Ray those 5 games.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Can we get Ray on campus for a few weeks starting oh say July 1st or so?

I still remember when Ray was with the Celtics and they won their championship. There is no question that he deserved the MVP more than Paul Pierce. I've always thought that Pierce was an arrogant showboat who often hogged the ball late in the game, often at the expense of a victory. Allen has been a super teammate forever and should easily end up in the NBA Hall Of Fame.

 

[UConn990411]

I still remember when Ray was with the Celtics and they won their championship. There is no question that he deserved the MVP more than Paul Pierce. I've always thought that Pierce was an arrogant showboat who often hogged the ball late in the game, often at the expense of a victory. Allen has been a super teammate forever and should easily end up in the NBA Hall Of Fame.

Dumbest post in Boneyard history?

Many of Ray's clutch 3-pointers actually came from passes by Pierce. To quote Jim Calhoun: "Get some facts..."

 

[Gurleyman]

Haha! Sometimes you make an argument and you know you've set yourself up for a check mate!

On another viewing, there is a little more of a body bump on the drive than I remembered. I certainly wouldn't have said it was a blown call if they blew the whistle, even with Ray getting ball on the swipe. They could have called it. It was certainly more contact than the infamous Wade-Nowitzki foul they called in 2006.

I guess I haven't looked at this series and felt like they were necessarily going up against each other, as if there was a "Green vs. Allen" head-to-head matchup that the Heat needed to win. I have felt that way about Ray-Kobe in the Finals (perhaps it is just because they were clear starting "2-guards" opposite each other, whereas now Ray comes off the bench). In this series, Allen and Green have guarded each other a bit, but have also spent a lot of time on other people (Ray has guarded Ginobli, Neal, Leonard and even Boris Diaw yesterday for a little while). Green did hit a couple threes on Ray (one impressive one I remember as he moved laterally across the whole three-point arc before Parker kicked it out to him and Ray was a smidgen late contesting), but there were just as many times Chalmers and Wade totally lost him (I haven't seen every game in this series, though - I missed the Spurs 40-point win).

The defensive philosophies of the two teams have also been different. Whoever is guarding Ray never leaves him - no help allowed (the tying three was in a disjointed situation off a rebound where Green actually couldn't get back out to him because Ginobli fell down going for the rebound and got in his way). Even when Green was lighting it up, the Heat were still (some would say stubbornly) staying with their team defense game plan of help and recover, leading to more messed up defensive rotations and open looks.

But certainly, if you were doing a "three-point marksman" impact checklist, Green was way, way ahead before Ray's big shot - he was the story of the series.

 

[Hoophound]

That strip was a great play by Ray. Whether it was technically a foul or not can be debated but the fact that it is debatable and Ray stole the ball makes it a great play. It isn't easy to strip a guy coming at you with a full head of steam. To do it with so little contact is rare.

Ray saved that game in 4 different ways in the closing minutes.

 

[tzznandrew]

Dumbest post in Boneyard history?

Many of Ray's clutch 3-pointers actually came from passes by Pierce. To quote Jim Calhoun: "Get some facts..."

He went too far in denouncing Pierce.

But I do think that Ray was the best player for the Celtics in that year's Finals. He averaged 20.3 ppg on 50.7% shooting (52.4% on 3s). He also averaged 5.0 rpg, 2.5 apg, and 1.3 spg. And, he initiated the offense more than usual due to the lack of trust in Rondo. Perhaps most importantly, he was largely responsible for their Game 4 comeback (which put them up 3-1 rather than tying it 2-2).

Pierce averaged 21.8 on 43.2% (39.3% on 3s), and added 4.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, and 1.2 spg. I don't think it was unreasonable for him to win it, but I'd take Allen's statline (and Game 4 comeback) over Pierce's any day.

 

[nomar]

I love me some Ray Allen, but Paul Pierce has always been a better player than Ray. Including that year's Finals. He creates better, he passes better, he rebounds better, he defends better. He doesn't shoot better but there's a reason you put the ball in Paul's hands at the end of the game and let Ray go to the corner.

 

[tzznandrew]

I love me some Ray Allen, but Paul Pierce has always been a better player than Ray. Including that year's Finals. He creates better, he passes better, he rebounds better, he defends better. He doesn't shoot better but there's a reason you put the ball in Paul's hands at the end of the game and let Ray go to the corner.

Ray Allen was guarding Kobe Bryant for large segments of those NBA Finals, IIRC.
And, Allen rebounded better throughout the series (although Pierce did have more assists).

Career-wise, yes, I think you are right.
That series? I just disagree.

 

[UConn990411]

He went too far in denouncing Pierce.

But I do think that Ray was the best player for the Celtics in that year's Finals. He averaged 20.3 ppg on 50.7% shooting (52.4% on 3s). He also averaged 5.0 rpg, 2.5 apg, and 1.3 spg. And, he initiated the offense more than usual due to the lack of trust in Rondo. Perhaps most importantly, he was largely responsible for their Game 4 comeback (which put them up 3-1 rather than tying it 2-2).

Pierce averaged 21.8 on 43.2% (39.3% on 3s), and added 4.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, and 1.2 spg. I don't think it was unreasonable for him to win it, but I'd take Allen's statline (and Game 4 comeback) over Pierce's any day.

I think it's fair to say Pierce may have gotten the nod because he was a career Celtic, but at the same time you really can't distinguish who was better based on those statistics. From a basketball standpoint, they're extremely close. (I also think it's strange how you credited Ray with having to initiate the offense ... yet completely gloss over the fact that Pierce averaged 6.5 apg that series.)

Regardless, I really miss watching how those two played off each other at the end of close games. You really couldn't find two wing players who complemented each other better (Pierce was a good 3-point shooter and great mid-range shooter; Ray was great from 3 and good from mid-range).

They executed so well in crunch time and were both extremely selfless passers. Certainly better than Wade and LeBron.

 

[tzznandrew]

(I also think it's strange how you credited Ray with having to initiate the offense ... yet completely gloss over the fact that Pierce averaged 6.5 apg that series.)

Ray played 41 mpg for the Celtics in those Finals, and Rondo played 27. Ray ended up taking over PG duties frequently with the second unit, and when Ray played alongside Pierce, Posey, Garnett, Perkins.

I think Pierce had more assists per game largely for a couple of reasons:

• Pierce is the better passer
• Pierce doesn't shoot spot-up jumpers as frequently as the other players, so that when Allen dished to him, Pierce frequently created from that spot, often passing to Allen, Posey, etc.
• Ray played with the second unit.

I like Pierce, so don't get me wrong. I just remember thinking that Ray coming alive (after a terrible post-season up to that point) essentially swung the series--especially his play in Game 4, in which Ray played all 48 minutes. I thought he should have been the MVP. Pierce was a reasonable choice (far better than Kobe two years later...), but I thought Ray was better.

 

[Gurleyman]

During the mid-2000's, Ray was a better player than Pierce. There was a stretch when Ray was an All-NBA player and Pierce was wearing out his welcome in Boston with inefficient play and sulking. When the Bucks made their run, Ray had the ball in his hands as much as Cassell, if not more in some of the series they had. He often approached triple-double numbers in Seattle (he had a few, but usually you would see a lot of 25-7-8 type games on his good days).

Ray had various foot injuries and surgeries the two years prior to coming to Boston, and then took the supplemental role in the Big 3 Era. While they were in Boston together - Pierce was simply the better all-around player and the guy you wanted with the ball due to his better ability to create his own shot. In the closing seconds, the ideal scenario was give Pierce the ball, try to free Ray up, and if Ray couldn't get open, then Pierce would go one-on-one. If the ball got in Ray's hands and he then had to create, it was less likely to succeed.

I thought Ray was the MVP of the Finals, but had no qualms with Pierce getting the award, since it was close - and Pierce was much better over the whole course of the playoffs, which while not technically part of the award, probably could be used as a secondary critera, since there is no Playoff MVP.

 

[Gurleyman]

They executed so well in crunch time and were both extremely selfless passers. Certainly better than Wade and LeBron.

On the play that set up that Ginobli drive where Ray stripped him, the Heat were up 1 and trying to free up Ray, who was curling around the 3-point line on the right side. There was a good screen, and Green got caught trailing him, and at least to my eyes it looked like Ray could have had a decent catch-and-shoot look. Wade looked at it, completely ignored it, and then shot his own step back brick.

If you want to be judicious, you could say that Wade decided that Green was recovering fast enough where it might not be a good look and decided that he'd be better off keeping the ball. If you want to not be quite so judicious, you could say it was just plain being selfish with the season on the line.

No doubt in my mind that Pierce gets him the ball there, and then maybe gets the ball back against a scrambling defense if Ray doesn't like his look.

 

[UConn990411]

I've followed both players' careers equally, and I just don't think Ray has ever really been a better player than Pierce. Equal, sure, but better? Nah. Pierce has always been a better rebounder, passer, ball handler and defender (although neither one was very good at D). There's a reason he's only played for one team in his career, while Ray has played for four.

And even if you consider them equals as players, it can't be ignored that Pierce has always been WAY more durable. The only time he ever missed more than 10 games in a season was 2006-07, when the Celtics were tanking for Oden/Durant. Ray, on the other hand, has missed 10+ games six times.

Overall their careers are extremely close, so this is kind of a silly argument. Both should be 1st ballot HOFers when all is said and done.

 

[Gurleyman]

I've followed both players' careers equally, and I just don't think Ray has ever really been a better player than Pierce. Equal, sure, but better? Nah. Pierce has always been a better rebounder, passer, ball handler and defender (although neither one was very good at D). There's a reason he's only played for one team in his career, while Ray has played for four.

And even if you consider them equals as players, it can't be ignored that Pierce has always been WAY more durable. The only time he ever missed more than 10 games in a season was 2006-07, when the Celtics were tanking for Oden/Durant. Ray, on the other hand, has missed 10+ games six times.

You're completely wrong. In one year, Ray played 50 games. Because the league only played 50 games. It was a strike year. He only played 47 games in Milwaukee in 2002-03 because he was traded. He played the final 29 in Seattle = 47+29 is 76. So no, he only missed more than 10 games in a season three times, not six. He had the longest consecutive games streak in the NBA at one point in his career (year six), and was plenty durable in Boston, only running into problems in his final year. And he didn't miss any major time this year.

From roughly 2003-06, Ray was a better player - maybe only slightly better, but better. He was second-team All-NBA in 2005, and Pierce wasn't even in the discussion. Pierce shot terribly in 2002-03 and 2003-04 and was a little better the following year, but Ray had a better season (as the All-NBA teams would indicate).

 

[UConn990411]

You're completely wrong.

Actually, we're both wrong. He missed more than 10 games both times (2001-02, 2003-04, 2006-07 and 2011-12). I had already discounted the strike season.

With fact-checking like that, you and I should be professional journalists.

 

[Gurleyman]

Actually, we're both wrong. He missed more than 10 games both times (2001-02, 2003-04, 2006-07 and 2011-12). I had already discounted the strike season.

With fact-checking like that, you and I should be professional journalists.

Whoops! I'm even more guilty, as the caller-outter. I missed 2001-02 - for some reason I either thought I read 74 or mis-remembered and thought he only missed eight games that year, instead of 14. Sorry about that.

The reason I pushed back so hard is that there was a BS narrative when he was traded to Boston that the Celtics were getting an injury-prone two guard on the decline that drove me nuts at the time. He had been the most durable player in the league his first six years (he had lingering tendonitis after banging knees with Snow in the playoffs which caused him to finally sit 2-3 weeks and end his streak). He did have two seasons sidetracked in Seattle - the first time he missed the first two months to start of the year, the second time he could have kept playing, but the Sonics were struggling and the playoffs were out of reach, so rather than put off surgery, he shut it down and had it then (helping the Sonics tank for Durant in the process). So it was really only one year in Seattle that his injury problems were significant.

In Boston, he was very durable through four years. The flu a couple times, maybe an ankle roll once, and a couple games he sat to rest for the playoffs. In year five, getting pretty old, he did break down a little. However, the surgeries in Seattle - or maybe simply age - did slow him down ever so much, and Pierce was hands down the better all-around player in that whole era, with Ray filling his role very effectively as well.

 

[svetbird]

I dunno, Kitaman...I am so totally conflicted. Ray, winning games for the Miami Hate! Makes me so sad just to see him wearing that uniform. I am hoping that he gets his 2nd ring & retires on top. Not sure how long I can play the "do I love Ray more than I hate the Heat" game!

I was there. I got over it. Go Ray!

 

[Adios]

Ray Allen sure etched a place for himself in NBA Finals lore. I just hope the Spurs win Game 7.

Ray is a sniper. At the worst time for anyone who wants the Heat to lose. Why Ray??

 

[Matrim55]

Pierce and Ray are both, as many pointed out, first-ballot hall of famers. Great players, both.

One uncontrollable thing that Pierce had in his favor, though, is that he was born at the right time. Ball-dominant wings in slow-it-down halfcourt offenses? That was the story from about 1996 through 2009, which obviously is the bulk of Pierce's best years.

Nobody knew how to correctly use players like Ray during that time. Far too often in Milwaukee and Seattle he was given the ball and told to create for himself, basically "be our Kobe or Iverson or McGrady." And it speaks pretty highly of just how much of a badass Ray was in his prime that he was able to do that at a very, very high level despite playing with the worst collection of bigs imaginable.

Fact is, he was born 10 (or 15) years too soon. If he was coming into his prime now, teams would be able to build entire offensive schemes around his off the ball movement and the space he creates, and beyond "would be able," they'd realize they should. Teams are smarter, and coached better and understand just how important spacing is. 10 years ago, they really didn't.

So I'd argue that Pierce had an era, and a number of teams build perfectly around what he brought to the table. Ray did not.

Here's the thing, though: If he had, I don't believe Ray would ever have been a 30+ PPG scorer or anything like that. He'd have just put up 25 ppg much more efficiently, and allowed the players around him the room to be much more efficient as well.

 

[huskyniner]

How has no one posted the video yet?

 

[Adios]

He was POed at watching Danny Green beat his record. I am at peace now.

 

[Gurleyman]

Excellent points Matrim. Great post. Before he played with KG, the best big he had in his first 11 years was probably Ervin Johnson. A whole collection of misfits.

He elevated a team of mediocre talent in Seattle to contender status briefly (with Rashard Lewis as a wing man)- Jerome James, Vlad Radmanovic, Antonio Daniels, Danny Fortson, Luke Ridnour, Reggie Evans. Other than Lewis, it was basically a team comparable to what Kemba has had. Then after they lost to the Spurs in six (with both Lewis and Radmanovic out with injuries), the whole team blew up - free agents left that the Sonics didn't want to spend on, McMillan was hired by Portland, and it all fell apart. Would have liked to see him paired with Durant, but both parties made out OK with him moving on.

 

[nomar]

Ray may have been better for a two- or three-season stretch, but over the course of the rest of their careers, Paul has been head and shoulders above Ray.

Before Ray won his title with Boston, he was not a HOFer. 80% of fans wouldn't have voted him in. The title helped, but even afterwards a lot of people said he'd have to win ANOTHER title to lock it up. As it turned out, he didn't (Kendrick Perkins' injury took care of that, as did Ray's ice-cold shooting in 2 critical games), but his solid play since then -- together with some major records being set -- eventually established him as a HOFer.

Paul Pierce, I would argue, locked up his HOF induction before Ray even arrived in Boston. Indisputably, once Boston won the title, he was a HOFer. That was 5 years ago.

That's the bottom line, to me, when you're talking about who's had a better career. Paul had a better career before he and Ray became teammates, and there's not even a question of who's had a better career since 2007. That's not even close.

These were my two favorite players, so when they teamed up, I was ecstatic. But there was never a question among Celtics fans who was more valuable.

 

[tzznandrew]

Eh. I think you're overstating this. They were very close. Before then, their career PPG, shooting percentage, etc, were all pretty close (granted, Pierce did have slightly higher averages, although slightly lower shooting percentages).

On top of that, before they teamed up in 2007-08, they each

• had been to the All-Star game every year (except once) since they turned 24
• been named to two All NBA teams (Allen - 2nd and 3rd; Pierce - 3rd 2x)
• had been fringe MVP candidates a couple of times (Pierce 3x, never finishing above 11th; Allen 2x, never finishing above 9th)
• had been Top 10 in PPG a handful of times (Pierce 5x; Allen 4x)

Honestly, I think they both benefitted playing with each other (and Garnett), but I would say Pierce probably benefited from Allen more than vice versa.
And, provided Allen played more years at somewhere near the level he was playing, he was a shoe in. But Pierce needed to the same thing. And the year before Allen was traded to Boston, he averaged 26.4 ppg--the highest of his career--so I think he would have kept it up just fine (Pierce too, as he averaged 25).

 

[UConn990411]

The people who didn't think Ray Allen was a HOFer before winning a title weren't very knowledgable. In fact, I bet those same people would have voted Vince Carter in.

Pierce's and Ray's careers are extremely close, with Pierce getting the edge because of his all-around game. Both guys should make it in on the first ballot, but they're both a notch below the Ducans/Kobes/KGs of the world.