Ray Allen....not bad.

[Gurleyman]

Btw, Popovich may have cost himself a title with his awful coaching down the stretch.

Remove the best rebounder in the building on 2 key possessions? You'd think after they failed to get the first defensive rebound he might learn something, but no. And then, yeah, let's let the guy with 7 to's take the ball all the way. That seems like a good idea.

Some truth to that - I think the Spurs tried to get their best three-point defenders out on the floor (since Bosh can make them and there is nowhere to hide Duncan). But you can probably live with Bosh taking threes, since he hasn't taken one in a while, in exchange for better rebounding.

Diaw made a big mistake by leaping out to "contest" the James three when he wasn't even close enough to bother it. That let Bosh run free into the paint with nobody to challenge him for the board other than Ginobli.

 

[Gurleyman]

I should add that if they did call a foul on Ray, I wouldn't be up in arms about it. There was enough minor contact to justify a call. The dislodging of the ball was clean - but a little bump before and the hit across the arm on the follow through made it look more fouly. They erred on the side of letting the minor contact go when Green stripped James right before that.

 

[k9fanatic]

Love this quote -- even if it did come from a Dookie.

“If there’s one guy you want to have the ball in that situation, it is Walter Ray Allen,” said the Heat’s Shane Battier, going all formal. Asked if he had time to process a thought when the ball went from Bosh to Allen, Battier went all theological.

“Thank the Lord for Jesus,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/sports/basketball/heats-allen-knows-all-about-big-3s.html?hp&_r=0

 

[Kitaman]

I wanted San Antonio to win, but Ray's shot was redemption and a "take that" to the Danny Green lover's. I can't imagine one San Antonio well wisher on this board that didn't celebrate Ray's shot.

He has been outplayed this series to some extent BUT the UConn pedigree (i.e. cream) rose to the top!

 

[Gurleyman]

I don't know if he has been outplayed in this series, so much (only in the sense that Green has basically outplayed every Finals shooter ever with his accuracy). Ray has shot 60 percent on threes himself (12-20) and 70 percent in fourth quarters. Green has just been equally efficient with a lot more shots. The way the series has played out is that Ray is typically out there to provide spacing as LBJ and Wade drive, and nobody is helping off him, so he has gotten limited touches. San Antonio has used better ball movement and spacing, and Green has had more opportunities.

 

[Joobie]

I dunno, Kitaman...I am so totally conflicted. Ray, winning games for the Miami Hate! Makes me so sad just to see him wearing that uniform. I am hoping that he gets his 2nd ring & retires on top. Not sure how long I can play the "do I love Ray more than I hate the Heat" game!

 

[ctchamps]

If it wasn't for Ray I'd be rooting for San Antonio. With "The Shot" I want Miami to win more than before.

I want Ray to get his second ring. Adds to his cred. But more than that, if Miami pulls out the seventh, that clutch shot will be played over and over. That could influence a recruit to head to UConn. It may not, but no one can be certain how anyone makes decisions. I'll take anything that has the potential to help UConn.

 

[nomar]

For what it's worth - and I feel squeamish using him as a counter point - Doug Gottlieb tweeted in real time that it wasn't a foul.

I will treat that as a concession.

 

[nomar]

Some truth to that - I think the Spurs tried to get their best three-point defenders out on the floor (since Bosh can make them and there is nowhere to hide Duncan). But you can probably live with Bosh taking threes, since he hasn't taken one in a while, in exchange for better rebounding.

Diaw made a big mistake by leaping out to "contest" the James three when he wasn't even close enough to bother it. That let Bosh run free into the paint with nobody to challenge him for the board other than Ginobli.

Hindsight is 20/20 but watching it live, I thought it was crazy. I understand the thinking -- that you don't want a big man chasing a shooter. But first of all, the Heat didn't *need* to shoot a 3. Frank Vogel got killed for removing Hibbert, and then Pop takes out his only rim protector, twice! Second, it's not like Duncan is some stiff. He could have held his own, and maybe even blocked an obvious shot (as Bosh did twice down the stretch). And third, as it turned out, it weakened the Spurs' defensive rebounding. Obviously we don't know what would have happened if Duncan had been out there, but had everything else gone the way it did, Duncan would have snagged that first rebound. It was a bunch of 6'7" guys playing volleyball; Duncan would have grabbed it right out of the air.

Aggravating for anyone rooting for the Spurs.

 

[Gurleyman]

I will treat that as a concession.

Haha! Sometimes you make an argument and you know you've set yourself up for a check mate!

On another viewing, there is a little more of a body bump on the drive than I remembered. I certainly wouldn't have said it was a blown call if they blew the whistle, even with Ray getting ball on the swipe. They could have called it. It was certainly more contact than the infamous Wade-Nowitzki foul they called in 2006.

 

[Kitaman]

I don't know if he has been outplayed in this series, so much (only in the sense that Green has basically outplayed every Finals shooter ever with his accuracy). Ray has shot 60 percent on threes himself (12-20) and 70 percent in fourth quarters. Green has just been equally efficient with a lot more shots. The way the series has played out is that Ray is typically out there to provide spacing as LBJ and Wade drive, and nobody is helping off him, so he has gotten limited touches. San Antonio has used better ball movement and spacing, and Green has had more opportunities.

While I don't disagree with your stats, based on the eye test, Green 'was' killing him and everyone else. Its no way a reflection on Ray, or his performance but Green breaking the record, being hot and virtually unstoppable in games 1-5, was clearly the best role player on the court. So statistically maybe not but my eyes so a historic performance above and beyond Ray those 5 games.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Can we get Ray on campus for a few weeks starting oh say July 1st or so?

I still remember when Ray was with the Celtics and they won their championship. There is no question that he deserved the MVP more than Paul Pierce. I've always thought that Pierce was an arrogant showboat who often hogged the ball late in the game, often at the expense of a victory. Allen has been a super teammate forever and should easily end up in the NBA Hall Of Fame.

 

[UConn990411]

I still remember when Ray was with the Celtics and they won their championship. There is no question that he deserved the MVP more than Paul Pierce. I've always thought that Pierce was an arrogant showboat who often hogged the ball late in the game, often at the expense of a victory. Allen has been a super teammate forever and should easily end up in the NBA Hall Of Fame.

Dumbest post in Boneyard history?

Many of Ray's clutch 3-pointers actually came from passes by Pierce. To quote Jim Calhoun: "Get some facts..."

 

[Gurleyman]

Haha! Sometimes you make an argument and you know you've set yourself up for a check mate!

On another viewing, there is a little more of a body bump on the drive than I remembered. I certainly wouldn't have said it was a blown call if they blew the whistle, even with Ray getting ball on the swipe. They could have called it. It was certainly more contact than the infamous Wade-Nowitzki foul they called in 2006.

I guess I haven't looked at this series and felt like they were necessarily going up against each other, as if there was a "Green vs. Allen" head-to-head matchup that the Heat needed to win. I have felt that way about Ray-Kobe in the Finals (perhaps it is just because they were clear starting "2-guards" opposite each other, whereas now Ray comes off the bench). In this series, Allen and Green have guarded each other a bit, but have also spent a lot of time on other people (Ray has guarded Ginobli, Neal, Leonard and even Boris Diaw yesterday for a little while). Green did hit a couple threes on Ray (one impressive one I remember as he moved laterally across the whole three-point arc before Parker kicked it out to him and Ray was a smidgen late contesting), but there were just as many times Chalmers and Wade totally lost him (I haven't seen every game in this series, though - I missed the Spurs 40-point win).

The defensive philosophies of the two teams have also been different. Whoever is guarding Ray never leaves him - no help allowed (the tying three was in a disjointed situation off a rebound where Green actually couldn't get back out to him because Ginobli fell down going for the rebound and got in his way). Even when Green was lighting it up, the Heat were still (some would say stubbornly) staying with their team defense game plan of help and recover, leading to more messed up defensive rotations and open looks.

But certainly, if you were doing a "three-point marksman" impact checklist, Green was way, way ahead before Ray's big shot - he was the story of the series.

 

[Hoophound]

That strip was a great play by Ray. Whether it was technically a foul or not can be debated but the fact that it is debatable and Ray stole the ball makes it a great play. It isn't easy to strip a guy coming at you with a full head of steam. To do it with so little contact is rare.

Ray saved that game in 4 different ways in the closing minutes.

 

[tzznandrew]

Dumbest post in Boneyard history?

Many of Ray's clutch 3-pointers actually came from passes by Pierce. To quote Jim Calhoun: "Get some facts..."

He went too far in denouncing Pierce.

But I do think that Ray was the best player for the Celtics in that year's Finals. He averaged 20.3 ppg on 50.7% shooting (52.4% on 3s). He also averaged 5.0 rpg, 2.5 apg, and 1.3 spg. And, he initiated the offense more than usual due to the lack of trust in Rondo. Perhaps most importantly, he was largely responsible for their Game 4 comeback (which put them up 3-1 rather than tying it 2-2).

Pierce averaged 21.8 on 43.2% (39.3% on 3s), and added 4.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, and 1.2 spg. I don't think it was unreasonable for him to win it, but I'd take Allen's statline (and Game 4 comeback) over Pierce's any day.

 

[nomar]

I love me some Ray Allen, but Paul Pierce has always been a better player than Ray. Including that year's Finals. He creates better, he passes better, he rebounds better, he defends better. He doesn't shoot better but there's a reason you put the ball in Paul's hands at the end of the game and let Ray go to the corner.

 

[tzznandrew]

I love me some Ray Allen, but Paul Pierce has always been a better player than Ray. Including that year's Finals. He creates better, he passes better, he rebounds better, he defends better. He doesn't shoot better but there's a reason you put the ball in Paul's hands at the end of the game and let Ray go to the corner.

Ray Allen was guarding Kobe Bryant for large segments of those NBA Finals, IIRC.
And, Allen rebounded better throughout the series (although Pierce did have more assists).

Career-wise, yes, I think you are right.
That series? I just disagree.

 

[UConn990411]

He went too far in denouncing Pierce.

But I do think that Ray was the best player for the Celtics in that year's Finals. He averaged 20.3 ppg on 50.7% shooting (52.4% on 3s). He also averaged 5.0 rpg, 2.5 apg, and 1.3 spg. And, he initiated the offense more than usual due to the lack of trust in Rondo. Perhaps most importantly, he was largely responsible for their Game 4 comeback (which put them up 3-1 rather than tying it 2-2).

Pierce averaged 21.8 on 43.2% (39.3% on 3s), and added 4.5 rpg, 6.5 apg, and 1.2 spg. I don't think it was unreasonable for him to win it, but I'd take Allen's statline (and Game 4 comeback) over Pierce's any day.

I think it's fair to say Pierce may have gotten the nod because he was a career Celtic, but at the same time you really can't distinguish who was better based on those statistics. From a basketball standpoint, they're extremely close. (I also think it's strange how you credited Ray with having to initiate the offense ... yet completely gloss over the fact that Pierce averaged 6.5 apg that series.)

Regardless, I really miss watching how those two played off each other at the end of close games. You really couldn't find two wing players who complemented each other better (Pierce was a good 3-point shooter and great mid-range shooter; Ray was great from 3 and good from mid-range).

They executed so well in crunch time and were both extremely selfless passers. Certainly better than Wade and LeBron.

 

[tzznandrew]

(I also think it's strange how you credited Ray with having to initiate the offense ... yet completely gloss over the fact that Pierce averaged 6.5 apg that series.)

Ray played 41 mpg for the Celtics in those Finals, and Rondo played 27. Ray ended up taking over PG duties frequently with the second unit, and when Ray played alongside Pierce, Posey, Garnett, Perkins.

I think Pierce had more assists per game largely for a couple of reasons:

• Pierce is the better passer
• Pierce doesn't shoot spot-up jumpers as frequently as the other players, so that when Allen dished to him, Pierce frequently created from that spot, often passing to Allen, Posey, etc.
• Ray played with the second unit.

I like Pierce, so don't get me wrong. I just remember thinking that Ray coming alive (after a terrible post-season up to that point) essentially swung the series--especially his play in Game 4, in which Ray played all 48 minutes. I thought he should have been the MVP. Pierce was a reasonable choice (far better than Kobe two years later...), but I thought Ray was better.

 

[Gurleyman]

During the mid-2000's, Ray was a better player than Pierce. There was a stretch when Ray was an All-NBA player and Pierce was wearing out his welcome in Boston with inefficient play and sulking. When the Bucks made their run, Ray had the ball in his hands as much as Cassell, if not more in some of the series they had. He often approached triple-double numbers in Seattle (he had a few, but usually you would see a lot of 25-7-8 type games on his good days).

Ray had various foot injuries and surgeries the two years prior to coming to Boston, and then took the supplemental role in the Big 3 Era. While they were in Boston together - Pierce was simply the better all-around player and the guy you wanted with the ball due to his better ability to create his own shot. In the closing seconds, the ideal scenario was give Pierce the ball, try to free Ray up, and if Ray couldn't get open, then Pierce would go one-on-one. If the ball got in Ray's hands and he then had to create, it was less likely to succeed.

I thought Ray was the MVP of the Finals, but had no qualms with Pierce getting the award, since it was close - and Pierce was much better over the whole course of the playoffs, which while not technically part of the award, probably could be used as a secondary critera, since there is no Playoff MVP.

 

[Gurleyman]

They executed so well in crunch time and were both extremely selfless passers. Certainly better than Wade and LeBron.

On the play that set up that Ginobli drive where Ray stripped him, the Heat were up 1 and trying to free up Ray, who was curling around the 3-point line on the right side. There was a good screen, and Green got caught trailing him, and at least to my eyes it looked like Ray could have had a decent catch-and-shoot look. Wade looked at it, completely ignored it, and then shot his own step back brick.

If you want to be judicious, you could say that Wade decided that Green was recovering fast enough where it might not be a good look and decided that he'd be better off keeping the ball. If you want to not be quite so judicious, you could say it was just plain being selfish with the season on the line.

No doubt in my mind that Pierce gets him the ball there, and then maybe gets the ball back against a scrambling defense if Ray doesn't like his look.

 

[UConn990411]

I've followed both players' careers equally, and I just don't think Ray has ever really been a better player than Pierce. Equal, sure, but better? Nah. Pierce has always been a better rebounder, passer, ball handler and defender (although neither one was very good at D). There's a reason he's only played for one team in his career, while Ray has played for four.

And even if you consider them equals as players, it can't be ignored that Pierce has always been WAY more durable. The only time he ever missed more than 10 games in a season was 2006-07, when the Celtics were tanking for Oden/Durant. Ray, on the other hand, has missed 10+ games six times.

Overall their careers are extremely close, so this is kind of a silly argument. Both should be 1st ballot HOFers when all is said and done.

 

[Gurleyman]

I've followed both players' careers equally, and I just don't think Ray has ever really been a better player than Pierce. Equal, sure, but better? Nah. Pierce has always been a better rebounder, passer, ball handler and defender (although neither one was very good at D). There's a reason he's only played for one team in his career, while Ray has played for four.

And even if you consider them equals as players, it can't be ignored that Pierce has always been WAY more durable. The only time he ever missed more than 10 games in a season was 2006-07, when the Celtics were tanking for Oden/Durant. Ray, on the other hand, has missed 10+ games six times.

You're completely wrong. In one year, Ray played 50 games. Because the league only played 50 games. It was a strike year. He only played 47 games in Milwaukee in 2002-03 because he was traded. He played the final 29 in Seattle = 47+29 is 76. So no, he only missed more than 10 games in a season three times, not six. He had the longest consecutive games streak in the NBA at one point in his career (year six), and was plenty durable in Boston, only running into problems in his final year. And he didn't miss any major time this year.

From roughly 2003-06, Ray was a better player - maybe only slightly better, but better. He was second-team All-NBA in 2005, and Pierce wasn't even in the discussion. Pierce shot terribly in 2002-03 and 2003-04 and was a little better the following year, but Ray had a better season (as the All-NBA teams would indicate).

 

[UConn990411]

You're completely wrong.

Actually, we're both wrong. He missed more than 10 games both times (2001-02, 2003-04, 2006-07 and 2011-12). I had already discounted the strike season.

With fact-checking like that, you and I should be professional journalists.