Question About Boeheim's Presser

[Deadrody]

What does it say that he talked of his loyalty to Fine and never listened to the tape? Then he said the victim's allegations haven't been verified. And finally he made the point that ballboys don't travel with the team. Why say that?

If that fact is indeed true - ballboys do not travel with the team - that is a fairly important fact, don't you think ? Since all three current accusers claim to have traveled with the team.

 

[Deadrody]

My view is that Boeheim has already done enough to show he is not sufficiently aware of the gravity of the situation. He is dismissive about the things on the tape, and I'm not sure I buy that he is aware of everything on the tape. In fact, I often hear people only talk about the ESPN played part of the tape, and not the more salacious parts. He's claimed that he never brought up the allegations with Fine. That he never listened to the tape. That it's not his job. But these are similar to Paterno's claims. Now, I don't think Paterno would have been fired had it not been for the fundamental difference between Cuse and PSU, and that is the eyewitness reports. But I would go beyond that if one equates McQueary with Laurie Fine as eyewitnesses, and that is this: what is missing from the Cuse case is rhythmic slaps, anal rape and perhaps what Dana O'Neil said this morning: Bobby Davis is 39 year old.

So, Boeheim survives, even though I think his behavior and emphasis on plausible deniability is a problem. But, if some rhythmic slaps are revealed in the coming weeks, then he's gone whether or not he knew. Why? Because burying his head in the sand allowed a serial predator to do his thing. This isn't PSU yet, but it may come to that.

Am I missing the part where Laurie Fine went to Boeheim and told him about Bernie molesting ballboys ? Because if that didn't happen, then McQueary and Laurie Fine have nothing in common whatsoever with respect to the head coach.

 

[TopDog18]

If that fact is indeed true - ballboys do not travel with the team - that is a fairly important fact, don't you think ? Since all three current accusers claim to have traveled with the team.

They claimed to have traveled with the team, but did they claim to have traveled as ball boys? Somewhere I've read that Davis would sometimes travel with Bernie to serve as a Babysitter.

 

[Deadrody]

Jimbo Gotta Go. What he did was inexcusable. As I've been told, most child abuse victims are afraid to come forward because they fear people will not believe their accusations. Which is exactly what JB did. But he took it even further, publicly calling him a liar and out for the money. As Pat Forde mentions JB kept saying “we have to wait” until the investigation plays out. Well, JB did not wait when he made his statement about the accusers. And how can people think his apology to the victims is sincere? He released that statement that the school or his attorney probably wrote for him. Did you hear him express and sympathy for the victims during the press conference? Or remorse for what he said last week? NO. Instead JB went out and said how he was proud he supported his friend. JB was wrong and clearly does not understand how serious this situation is.

And nowhere in the job description for college basketball coach does it say anything about "creating an atmosphere where victims of child abuse feel free to come forward", nor does it even include any reference to being some kind of humanitarian. These ancillary charges are not going to get Boeheim fired, nor should they.

 

[TopDog18]

And nowhere in the job description for college basketball coach does it say anything about "creating an atmosphere where victims of child abuse feel free to come forward", nor does it even include any reference to being some kind of humanitarian. These ancillary charges are not going to get Boeheim fired, nor should they.

So according to you in the job description it says to attack possible victims of child abuse by calling them liars and gold diggers! Are you serious? As head coach of a a college basketball team, you are a direct representation of you school and are responsible for carrying yourself in a respectable manner. Being at a well known university such as Syracuse, you are always in the spotlight and are expected to handle things the right way, which he clearly did not.

 

[Husky Dynasty]

The frightening similarity between Paterno and Boeheim is that both don't seem to grasp the severity of the issues they're facing. This is can be seen in the way that JB started off his press conference with a tasteless joke (as if it were just a basketball related issue), and the way that Joepa concluded his student rally with, "beat Nebraska" (as if football was the most pressing matter at hand). Having seen the precedent which Penn State set, it's amazing that JB hasn't learned anything from JP's mistakes.

If JB can't see past his own ego, and can't show any compassion for the victims, the least he can do is keep his mouth shut and continue to allow the Syracuse lawyers to carefully craft "his" statements. Right now he's his own worst enemy.

 

[Prezidint]

I'd have to agree that he isn't behaving in a manner that you'd expect from somebody who is potentially drowning.

Perhaps it's a mentality that is derived from 30 years of being the king of your own fiefdom. Perhaps he just can't get his arms around the notion that, for maybe the first time in decades, he's not in control of his own immediate future.

 

[mauconnfan]

The frightening similarity between Paterno and Boeheim is that both don't seem to grasp the severity of the issues they're facing. This is can be seen in the way that JB started off his press conference with a tasteless joke (as if it were just a basketball related issue), and the way that Joepa concluded his student rally with, "beat Nebraska" (as if football was the most pressing matter at hand). Having seen the precedent which Penn State set, it's amazing that JB hasn't learned anything from JP's mistakes.

If JB can't see past his own ego, and can't show any compassion for the victims, the least he can do is keep his mouth shut and continue to allow the Syracuse lawyers to carefully craft "his" statements. Right now he's his own worst enemy.

I must say I disagree on comparing JB with JoePa....Joe Pa is an arrogant man, used his influence in a big way to create a God-like aura around him. JB doesn't seem to care about that or would he be that way. He has it because of his success but does not flaunt it. JoePa did. I really think JB is being genuine and I'm guessing its not easy on him to have to answer questions about his friend and coach of 36 years in this situation!!

 

[upstater]

If that fact is indeed true - ballboys do not travel with the team - that is a fairly important fact, don't you think ? Since all three current accusers claim to have traveled with the team.

All three accusers were not ballboys who claimed to have traveled with the team. Only Davis makes that claim. The 3rd kid wasn't a ballboy, Lang the second never made that claim.

Ya see, this is what I'm saying. His statement can be construed to mean that he contests whether or not Davis was abused.
It doesn't mean that necessarily, but given Laurie Fine's tape in which she describes her husband telling her to go upstairs each night and check on the kids, while he went down to the basement where Davis slept, why in the world would anyone be doubting Davis's story at this point? Only someone who didn't listen to the tape would throw cold water on Davis. As for the other two, there is no corroborating evidence in the public domain and either of them could be lying.

 

[ctchamps]

I see where your coming from. Although what he said was wrong, its hard to imagine what any of us would say if we were put in the same situation. I can only hope I would have not reacted the same way, but if I strongly believed the accusations against my best friend were beyond ridiculous, you never know how one will react.

Exactly. His reaction was from honest shock and incredulity. It turns out, based on further information that wasn't available initially, to have been a horrible response which had a damaging result to victims. The big question no one is asking is why did ESPN wait several days to air the tape after breaking the story.

I think a lot of of people need to focus on ESPN in this story. They had the tape and did not give it to the police when they received it eight years ago. They should have. And once they got the corroboration and decided to go public with the story, they held back from releasing the tape again for several days. The only reason for this is they wanted to milk the story. They didn't want to show the public all the information at once because our attention span is limited. Not many people are following the PSU story with as close scrutiny as when it first broke out. So they timed the release purely for prurient interests and in doing this they created the scenario for JB's remarks. It is journalism at it's worst and I think the public has an opportunity to make a statement about this.

 

[upstater]

Am I missing the part where Laurie Fine went to Boeheim and told him about Bernie molesting ballboys ? Because if that didn't happen, then McQueary and Laurie Fine have nothing in common whatsoever with respect to the head coach.

All it takes is for Boeheim to listen to the tape. What other conclusion is there?

 

[Scalito]

Then why did he come out with a statement which was a complete reversal of his previous statement, the same day when the audio tape came out?

That statement was for public relations, and I very much doubt the school gave him an option when it was put in front of him.

 

[upstater]

Exactly. His reaction was from honest shock and incredulity. It turns out, based on further information that wasn't available initially, to have been a horrible response which had a damaging result to victims. The big question no one is asking is why did ESPN wait several days to air the tape after breaking the story.

I think a lot of of people need to focus on ESPN in this story. They had the tape and did not give it to the police when they received it eight years ago. They should have. And once they got the corroboration and decided to go public with the story, they held back from releasing the tape again for several days. The only reason for this is they wanted to milk the story. They didn't want to show the public all the information at once because our attention span is limited. Not many people are following the PSU story with as close scrutiny as when it first broke out. So they timed the release purely for prurient interests and in doing this they created the scenario for JB's remarks. It is journalism at it's worst and I think the public has an opportunity to make a statement about this.

This remains to be seen. It's been reported that the police and the Feds also have the tape. Who has analyzed and authenticated it? Laurie Fine claims it was doctored. Someone must have analyzed it. You may be right about ESPN but there is all sorts of info that they might not be able to provide about the behind the scenes interactions with the police and the Feds.

Just today, the Syracuse Post-Standard declared that their reporters on this case are not to discuss the case in public (which is weird).

 

[Husky Dynasty]

I must say I disagree on comparing JB with JoePa....Joe Pa is an arrogant man, used his influence in a big way to create a God-like aura around him. JB doesn't seem to care about that or would he be that way. He has it because of his success but does not flaunt it. JoePa did. I really think JB is being genuine and I'm guessing its not easy on him to have to answer questions about his friend and coach of 36 years in this situation!!

I understand where you're coming from, I just think that JB would be better off if he at least read "his" press release from Sunday before speaking again...

Especially when his written views (which the University Chancellor backs him on), differ from his verbal comments (the ones which put him at risk in the first place). Either JB has a split personality, or he didn't write that apologetic statement...

 

[Scalito]

And he said he didn't listen to the tape.
I want him to listen to the part about Fine's nightly routine.

I read the transcript, and it isn't quite the smoking gun everyone believes it is. That's why both ESPN and the Post Standard did not air it (a decision I am somewhat more sympathetic to after reading the whole thing myself). To be honest, while I lean towards the view that Bernie Fine is guilty, I am not as certain as everyone else.

 

[upstater]

That statement was for public relations, and I very much doubt the school gave him an option when it was put in front of him.

I may buy that, given last night's press conference. He didn't double down on Fine, but he emphasized numerous times that he still had doubts about the accusations.

 

[upstater]

I read the transcript, and it isn't quite the smoking gun everyone believes it is. That's why both ESPN and the Post Standard did not air it (a decision I am somewhat more sympathetic to after reading the whole thing myself). To be honest, while I lean towards the view that Bernie Fine is guilty, I am not as certain as everyone else.

The stuff about Laurie and Bernie's nightly routine wasn't convincing?

 

[ctchamps]

This remains to be seen. It's been reported that the police and the Feds also have the tape. Who has analyzed and authenticated it? Laurie Fine claims it was doctored. Someone must have analyzed it. You may be right about ESPN but there is all sorts of info that they might not be able to provide about the behind the scenes interactions with the police and the Feds.

Just today, the Syracuse Post-Standard declared that their reporters on this case are not to discuss the case in public (which is weird).

I'm not certain on the timeline but it seems the police got involved after the story broke and the feds got involved after the tape was released. So it begs the question, why didn't ESPN release the tape the same day they chose to break the story?

 

[Donyell]

So many valid and interesting points made on a very serious situation and as I read the various posts on this issu In trying to wrap my head around this and what happened and the behavior of some people. I do waver , I must say but the behavior of JB during all this has not been good. Obviously Fine is the bad guy here and you could throw his loony wife in there also but as one poster had said playing the Sgt. Schultz I hear nothing , I know nothing, I see nothing makes him out to be flaky if nothing else IMhumbleO. There is more to come so we will see how it all shakes out.

 

[upstater]

I'm not certain on the timeline but it seems the police got involved after the story broke and the feds got involved after the tape was released. So it begs the question, why didn't ESPN release the tape the same day they chose to break the story?

According to ESPN, the case did not start with ESPN breaking the Davis accusations. It started with the police reopening the investigation after Penn State. I don't know when the police got a hold of the tape, but if you read the Cuse board, the posters there have been talking about the tape for a week or more before it was revealed on Sunday morning.

 

[Scalito]

The stuff about Laurie and Bernie's nightly routine wasn't convincing?

If I could gather from the tape that Davis was a minor at the time, it would be, but I cannot. There is no doubt that Laurie Fine thought Bernie and Davis were sleeping together at some point. But it's my understanding that Davis claimed to have slept with Bernie when he was an adult. In other words, that nightly routine she acknowledged could have been between two consenting adults.

It's ambiguous, and Laurie Fine apparently disputed Davis's version when approached by reporters from the Post Standard. Maybe she lied to protect her family. I just cannot say that with certainty.

 

[Scalito]

She repeatedly mentions he was a child.

She does elsewhere, but never in direct connection to sexual activity.

Look, just to be clear, I think the tape is incriminating. Just not completely. I have heard that a fourth victim may come forward. If that accuser is unconnected to Davis and lacks the credibility problems of the third, I will be sufficiently convinced that Fine should be convicted in the court of public opinion.

 

[upstater]

She does elsewhere, but never in direct connection to sexual activity.

Look, just to be clear, I think tape is somewhat incriminating. Just not completely. I have heard that a fourth victim may come forward. If that accuser is unconnected to Davis and lacks the credibility problems of the third, I will be sufficiently convinced that Fine should be convicted in the court of public opinion.

I've heard he's not very credible or as credible as Davis, but I've also heard other things about the raid on Bernie's house.

I also think she directly refers to Bernie being a pedophile in relation to sexual activities with Davis.

 

[Scalito]

I've heard he's not very credible or as credible as Davis, but I've also heard other things about the raid on Bernie's house.

I also think she directly refers to Bernie being a pedophile in relation to sexual activities with Davis.

If Davis was a victim, I hope the authorities find more evidence to corroborate his claim because there will be jurors like me who might not convict. When I read the transcript, it was obvious that Laurie Fine knows Bernie is gay and hates him for it. Also, there were ongoing money disputes and at least one physical altercation between Bernie and Davis, which would provide Davis with a motive to concoct a false allegation to use as retaliation against a former lover.

I don't think that's what happened, but some parts of his story have been contradicted, so there is room for reasonable doubt.

 

[upstater]

If Davis was a victim, I hope the authorities find more evidence to corroborate his claim because there will be jurors like me who might not convict. When I read the transcript, it was obvious that Laurie Fine knows Bernie is gay and hates him for it. Also, there were ongoing money disputes and at least one physical altercation between Bernie and Davis, which would provide Davis with a motive to concoct a false allegation to use as retaliation against a former lover.

I don't think that's what happened, but some parts of his story have been contradicted, so there is room for reasonable doubt.

There's not enough there for a criminal charge. I never said there was, never mind a conviction. One moment came close, when he mentions the time Laurie saw Bernie molest him through the basement window, and that's exactly the point she clams up. She has thought things through and through.

There is hearsay, and then there is eyewitness testimony.

 

[Scalito]

There's not enough there for a criminal charge. I never said there was, never mind a conviction. One moment came close, when he mentions the time Laurie saw Bernie molest him through the basement window, and that's exactly the point she clams up. She has thought things through and through.

I think we are mostly on the same page concerning the evidence when considered under criminal burdens of proof. But if so, why don't you have more empathy for Boeheim's conduct?

Boeheim didn't have access to the tape we've been debating back in 2005 or even when he called Davis a liar. All he knew is that his friend and colleague of forty years was being accused of a crime that a law firm had found lacked credibility, which was based on factual assertions he himself disputed (e.g., that he allegedly saw Davis in Fine's hotel beds). Unless you assume Boeheim is the liar, he had personal and emotional reasons to think the worst of Davis and Lang. Those reasons very well still could be correct. Regardless, I'd give the guy a break. If you accused one of my good or longstanding friends under the same circumstances, I'd probably do the same exact thing. Who do you believe, a friend or someone you have reason to believe is a liar?

 

[upstater]

I think we are mostly on the same page concerning the evidence when considered under criminal burdens of proof. But if so, why don't you have more empathy for Boeheim's conduct?

Boeheim didn't have access to the tape we've been debating back in 2005 or even when he called Davis a liar. All he knew is that his friend and colleague of forty years was being accused of a crime that a law firm had found lacked credibility, which was based on factual assertions he himself disputed (e.g., that he allegedly saw Davis in Fine's hotel beds). Unless you assume Boeheim is the liar, he had personal and emotional reasons to think the worst of Davis and Lang. Those reasons very well still could be correct. Regardless, I'd give the guy a break. If you accused one of my good or longstanding friends under the same circumstances, I'd probably do the same exact thing. Who do you believe, a friend or someone you have reason to believe is a liar?

I think Boeheim is right when he said he showed loyalty to a friend. That's what friends are supposed to do.

Unfortunately, Boeheim is also a high profile employee of Syracuse U., and the angry way that he attacked the victim as a liar reflects very badly on the university. He's a coach, but he's also at an educational institution, and there of all places you don't go off half-cocked. It hurts all victims, not just Davis.

That's not even what gets me. That much is forgivable. What bugs me about both Boeheim and Paterno is the way they establish plausible deniability. That's why I don't have empathy. First he tells us he never took interest in the initial investigation in 2005 to ask what it was about, and then we learn that he is not showing enough interest in Davis's side to actually listen to the tape. The only difference between he and Paterno on that score is that Paterno's Sgt. Schultz routing resulted in more kids being abused. That's a very significant difference, but the original problem is the same. Both try to create a wall of ignorance around them. So when people tell me Boeheim didn't know, I say he is doing a really good job of making sure he doesn't know.

Ultimately, too many people are putting emphasis on Boeheim's friendship with Fine, and very little emphasis on their professional relationship. When something of this magnitude drops on you, child molestation, you need to be able to separate the two.

 

[ctchamps]

I think Boeheim is right when he said he showed loyalty to a friend. That's what friends are supposed to do.

Unfortunately, Boeheim is also a high profile employee of Syracuse U., and the angry way that he attacked the victim as a liar reflects very badly on the university. He's a coach, but he's also at an educational institution, and there of all places you don't go off half-cocked. It hurts all victims, not just Davis.

That's not even what gets me. That much is forgivable. What bugs me about both Boeheim and Paterno is the way they establish plausible deniability. That's why I don't have empathy. First he tells us he never took interest in the initial investigation in 2005 to ask what it was about, and then we learn that he is not showing enough interest in Davis's side to actually listen to the tape. The only difference between he and Paterno on that score is that Paterno's Sgt. Schultz routing resulted in more kids being abused. That's a very significant difference, but the original problem is the same. Both try to create a wall of ignorance around them. So when people tell me Boeheim didn't know, I say he is doing a really good job of making sure he doesn't know.

Ultimately, too many people are putting emphasis on Boeheim's friendship with Fine, and very little emphasis on their professional relationship. When something of this magnitude drops on you, child molestation, you need to be able to separate the two.

You may want to edit your last paragraph.

 

[Scalito]

I think Boeheim is right when he said he showed loyalty to a friend. That's what friends are supposed to do.

Unfortunately, Boeheim is also a high profile employee of Syracuse U., and the angry way that he attacked the victim as a liar reflects very badly on the university. He's a coach, but he's also at an educational institution, and there of all places you don't go off half-cocked. It hurts all victims, not just Davis.

That's not even what gets me. That much is forgivable. What bugs me about both Boeheim and Paterno is the way they establish plausible deniability. That's why I don't have empathy. First he tells us he never took interest in the initial investigation in 2005 to ask what it was about, and then we learn that he is not showing enough interest in Davis's side to actually listen to the tape. The only difference between he and Paterno on that score is that Paterno's Sgt. Schultz routing resulted in more kids being abused. That's a very significant difference, but the original problem is the same. Both try to create a wall of ignorance around them. So when people tell me Boeheim didn't know, I say he is doing a really good job of making sure he doesn't know.

Ultimately, too many people are putting emphasis on Boeheim's friendship with Fine, and very little emphasis on their professional relationship. When something of this magnitude drops on you, child molestation, you need to be able to separate the two.

I think Paterno's obituary's first, middle, and last sentence should mention Victim Nos. 1-8. However, Paterno's failure shouldn't be compared to Boeheim's conduct. It's less than fair.

 

[upstater]

I think Paterno's obituary's first, middle, and last sentence should mention Victim Nos. 1-8. However, Paterno's failure shouldn't be compared to Boeheim's conduct. It's less than fair.

Fair? You have 6 of the victims prior to 2002 in his obituary.