Post-Depaul and State of the Duke program

[Icebear]

Cam Crazy for the prosecution.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Has Duke considered trying to get one of the former men's players to coach? Coach K has had success grooming future coaches. As we've seen with Geno a guy who is willing to coach the players with no regard for gender can have great success.

Farney, Duke has had two former men's players work as special assistants for McCallie. Neither lasted a year because they were so fed up with her. They both jumped at the first available opportunity to get away from her.

As far as getting a former men's player to replace her, that is a good idea. Just not sure who would be interested.

Great read Cam. I know you didn't mention it but I am totally puzzled by the Chloe Wells episode. Nothing was ever said publicly and she did not participate in Senior Night. It was like she just disappeared.
Also, you will perhaps know that I follow a lot of different twitter feeds of people connected to the game and I must say I have not seen another coach who tweets the volume of gibberish that JPM does.

pap49cba, Chloe Wells was injured, but she was dismissed from the team. She has had an on-again, off-again track record at Duke (suspended the second semester of her sophomore year for an academic violation). But McCallie has a strict policy of never revealing information or issuing press releases when players leave the team or transfer or when assistant coaches leave (the lone exception was Katie Heckman, who had to give up basketball due to medical issues but was remaining at Duke). There have been four assistant coaches who left for other assistant jobs (not for head coaching gigs). There have been at least seven players to transfer or leave the team under a shroud of mystery in her seven years (not counting Heckman), but McCallie refuses to have any information out there that could possibly be construed as negative. The irony of the dichotomy...she wants the praise for being a coach of an elite program (or an elite coach in her mind), but does not want to do the work or bear any of the responsibilities.

As for some of her Twitter rants, they are indefensible. And when she was not doing it, her husband was.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Good read. I do think you are stuck with JPM unless she quits herself.

It's silly to think because its not like Duke has bad seasons. I mean you guys have made it to the elite eight. Thats more than so many other teams and you constantly have a winning season (ACC Regular Season/Tourney Champs under JPM), yet to the Duke fans that isn't enough.

HuskyFan, I agree with you.

It is simultaneously ridiculous to think we are discussing getting rid of a coach who has won approximately 83 percent of her games, four regular season ACC titles, and made four Elite Eight appearances in seven years, yet completely understandable after seeing a team that was a regular Final Four participant and national title contender under her predecessor turn into a team that suffers continuous blowout losses to elite opponents and the inability to defeat teams in the top five.

Remember, Duke was a perennial Final Four contender under Gail Goestenkors (made four Final Fours and two national championship games in the nine years before McCallie got there; made seven Elite Eights in the ten years before McCallie got there; never lost before the Sweet 16 in the decade before McCallie arrived). By the way, for some on this board who say that "Duke recruits itself" because of the balance of elite academics and (allegedly) eilte women's basketball, remember that Duke was at the bottom of the ACC before Goestenkors got there. One NCAA berth in the program's entire history. In her 6th year, Goestenkors had Duke in the Elite Eight. In her 7th year, Goestenkors had Duke in the Final Four (and the national championship game). Goestenkors built the program to where it was when McCallie took over, in that there was no previous basketball tradition and Goestenkors created the Duke women's basketball brand and made it a sought-after destination for recruits.

McCallie has been at Duke for seven years. Here her numbers:
- No Final Four berths
- Two NCAA Second Round losses as a #1 or #2 seed
- 0-13 against teams ranked #1 or #2
- 7-21 (25.0 percent) against teams ranked in the top five
- 13 losses against opponents ranked in the top five by 15 or more points
- 16 losses against opponents ranked in the top five by 11 or more points

Considering that Duke has been in the top five or top ten for many of those games, the record is unacceptable (not just the won-loss record, but the constant blowouts).

When she took over the Duke program in 2007, McCallie inherited a roster of eight high school All-Americans. And also remember that Duke recruiting under McCallie has been the best ever; Goestenkors had a lot of talent, but she never had the depth of talent that McCallie had. So the elite talent is there, but the results are worse. Duke has clearly taken a step back on the national stage. No one seriously discusses Duke as a Final Four contender, much less a contender for the national title. Even when Duke is ranked in the top five, women's basketball analysts, commentators, and fans do not pick Duke to make the Final Four because they are familiar with McCallie's track record against top five opposition.

Former AD Joe Alleva made very public statements attacking Goestenkors and claiming she did not deserve to be paid an elite salary (like Geno and Pat) because she did not win the national title. He went on to belittle her accomplishments, both in public and private. After she left for Texas, he hired McCallie and made proclomations about McCallie not just equaling, but surpassing the success and accomplishments of Goestenkors and winning the national title.

Yet after seven years, where is Duke? After seven years of Gail, Duke went from the absolute bottom of the ACC to the Final Four. After seven years of McCallie, Duke has rosters of All-Americans and not only cannot sniff the Final Four, but has multiple second round losses. And there are very serious issues about assistant coaches leaving, other staff turnover, players mysteriously leaving the program, Twitter rants, post-game locker room temper tantrums, press conferences where she refuses to name the opposing players, etc.

And she will get a pass this year because of the injuries (though the blowout losses to UConn last year and this year came with a full roster and two of the losses to Notre Dame came with Jones in the lineup). But the reason there are so many injuries is her strength and conditioning program, which is built for strength, but not conditioning. Players are strong, but not in basketball shape, which is why running teams or teams that can fast break using crisp passing have always caused problems for Duke. The inability to prepare players to be in basketball shape is contributing to the injuries.

With football finally winning, the spotlight would have been on McCallie. But with the Duke men losing so early, McCallie gets another pass, as the spotlight is off of her.

Honestly, it would take a massive player defection for Duke to get rid of her at this point, especially with a contract that runs through at least 2018.

So while I agree that the expectations of Duke fans are incredibly high and that looking at her record in a vacuum would think she has done a stellar job at Duke, her performance as head coach has to be measured against the backdrop of her predecessor and where Duke was when she took over. And by that measure, the program has taken a significant step in reverse.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Well put, Cam. You obviously know the Duke program better than I, but I agree with everything you have written. Duke beat us in OT and at the buzzer, plus gave us a good scare with a strong comeback, in Gail's tenure. Though she often had a deer-in-the-headlights look, Gail had far more success than JPM has. I know the injuries hurt, but Duke lost 4 games at Cameron this year. With the healthy talent they still have, that's very weak.

Oh, I get the deer in headlights notes about Goestenkors (they date back to the 2003 game in Cameron).

McCallie is 0-7 against UConn, with six of the losses by 20 or more points (the other loss was by 16 points, if I recall correctly). Goestenkors went 2-2 against UConn and 5-4 against Tennessee while at Duke.

McCallie's teams lose by 20+ points to UConn. In the game in Cameron in 2003, Duke was down 28 points. Clearly, a deer in headlights moment on the big stage. But Goestenkors made some key personnel decisions and substitutions and that was much closer down the stretch than the final score indicated. The final score was 77-65, but Duke had cut the lead to six points with one minute remaining. McCallie's teams get down by 20 to UConn and either stay down by 20 or go down by 30.

Both of Goestenkors' wins against UConn came in the State of Connecticut (one in Hartford, one in Bridgeport). The game in Hartford (in which UConn led by 19, before Duke started pressing and staged a furious comeback to win the game) led to the prohibition/banning of silver uniforms by the Boneyard.

Toward the end of her career, Goestenkors did a much, much better job with Xs and Os preparation. Remember, after 2004, Alana Beard, Iciss Tillis, and Vicki Krapohl graduated; Brittany Hunter transferred; and Lindsey Harding was suspended. Duke lost in the Elite Eight by ten points to LSU (with Seimone Augustus, Temeka Johnson, and Sylvia Fowles), after the game was tied at the half. The next year, Duke was back in the Final Four, losing in overtime to Maryland. And in 2007, Duke (despite losing Mistie Bass, Jessica Foley, and Monique Currie to graduation and Chante Black to a season-ending injury), went undefeated in the regular season. The only reason for the Sweet 16 loss was the distraction of the Texas job and Joe Alleva's statements.

Side note...the vaunted Tennessee recruiting Class of 2004 - Candace Parker, Alexis Hornbuckle, Nicky Anosike, Alex Fuller, and Sa'de Wiley-Gatewood (who transferred) - went 0-3 against Goestenkors, with Duke winning two of the games in Knoxville.

I agree with the "deer in headlights" comments, especially in 2003 and 2004, the last two years of the Alana Beard era. But even in those games, Duke managed to rally when getting blown out. And in her last few years, Goestenkors COMPLETELY re-tooled the offense to fit her personnel. She was a much, much better Xs and Os coach in the last three years than she was during the Alana Beard era (part of the normal process of growing and improving as a coach).

If you look, McCallie runs the same offense that she ran at Maine and Michigan State. Post players are supposed to score in the post. Guards are supposed to score from the perimeter. Halfcourt sets are primary; there is very little running. No double screens up top (the "elevator screen") for shooters. No downscreens for backdoor cutters. The reason why she keeps getting blown out is because she makes very, very, very few adjustments. Once an opposing coach can figure out her Xs and Os, the opposition can defeat Duke, even if the opposing players do not have the high school accolades and are not as naturally talented or gifted.

With McCallie, there is no "deer in headlights" look, mainly because the deer is dead or accepted that death is imminent.

 

[Tonyc]

Cam your a great WBB mind. I enjoy reading your posts and I feel for you and Duke's WCBB. With some of the threads I have read over the past few years it appears many are not happy with Coach P including the players, however she continues to rerit top players and I do believe it has alot to do with getting a Duke education.

The women's game has changed. When I think back to UConn when they had DT and TASS and opposing coaches and broadcasters said it will be a long time before anyone can duplicate what Geno had and now I look back and say Geno has continued to beat his best and maintain UConn prowess. With all the parity in WCBB and what Geno has built and maintained his hold on WCBB IMO is an a amazing feat. Looking at this years NCAAs the teams are much better then they were a few years ago then you look at UConns dominance and I think, Geno continues to raise the bar another level almost every year.

I hear other great teams like Duke and Tenn frustrated but understand Geno has done it all with discipline and relentless practices. He has set the bar very high for his kids. He's created expectations and fierce competition. He is a student of the game and not afraid to talk to coaches who can help him. He also has great rewards for his kids, like top restaurants and hotels and chartered flights and trips. All this creates bonding. His players get the best of the best but they earn it, its not handed to them. Its a reward for their hard work and thats why they love him.

It all starts with defense and everybody being on the same page. His great players he disciplines the hardest and they must meet his expectations or they sit. Most coaches wont sit their stars and wont discipline their stars like Geno does.

For opposing teams to get to the elite level and that to me is to be a top 4 team it all starts with discipline. Discipline encompasses a lot of things. Next comes commitment to defense for every minute. Next comes unselfishness. Top players need that more then most. No prima donnas. When Im watching the NCAAs you can see Prima Donnas and most are not team players. They play for the highlight films. That will not win you BB games against top competition. You can out talent lesser teams but to get to the top you need to have a team not a bunch of top players and that team needs to be taught how to play the game. That's why when UConn loses out on a top recruit Im not worried. I know Geno will get someone else who will conform to his system and everything will be fine.

For Duke and Tenn and some of the other top teams who are frustrated imo you need to change what your doing or you'll keep gettin what your gettin.

 

[Sakibomb25]

Great read Cam, as always.

Question for you. In hindsight, would you still be happy with Goestenkors? Or do you think the Duke Den would still be upset at the fact that they go to the Final Four but have no national championship?

If you were to get rid of Goestenkors, who would you have chosen to be the next Duke head coach?

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Great read Cam, as always.

Question for you. In hindsight, would you still be happy with Goestenkors? Or do you think the Duke Den would still be upset at the fact that they go to the Final Four but have no national championship?

SakiBomb, if Goestenkors stays at Duke, Nneka Ogwumike goes to Duke. That would have changed the landscape of women's basketball. I believe it is quite possible Duke may have eventually ended up with a national title had Goestenkors stayed at Duke.

As for the other scenario (more Final Four appearances, but no national titles), the Duke fans would have the usual mix of reactions:
- "She can't win the big one."
- "Coach K didn't win the national title until his fifth Final Four."
- "Do you know how hard it is to achieve sustained excellence for this long?"
- "We will never be elite if we don't win the national title."
- "Other programs would kill for what we have."
- "She will never be as good as Geno, Tara, etc. without a national title.
- "Being a Final Four contender year after year is a truly elite coaching job."
- "Even Sylvia and Brenda won national titles."
- "Would you rather have Sylvia's record or Brenda's record or would you rather have Gail's record and all of the Final Four berths?"

I imagine that is how the board posts would go.

 

[BRS24]

With all the parity in WCBB and what Geno has built and maintained his hold on WCBB IMO is an a amazing feat. Looking at this years NCAAs the teams are much better then they were a few years ago then you look at UConns dominance and I think, Geno continues to raise the bar another level almost every year.

I hear other great teams like Duke and Tenn frustrated but understand Geno has done it all with discipline and relentless practices. He has set the bar very high for his kids. He's created expectations and fierce competition. He is a student of the game and not afraid to talk to coaches who can help him. He also has great rewards for his kids, like top restaurants and hotels and chartered flights and trips. All this creates bonding. His players get the best of the best but they earn it, its not handed to them. Its a reward for their hard work and thats why they love him.

For you women's soccer fans out there, this is exactly what Anson Dorrance did at UNC. He created an ultra-competitive atmosphere, and convinced the players that it was ok to beat the crap out of each other during practice, and still be friends afterwards. A lot of parallels between what AD and GA have done to keep their programs relevant, year after year. It's all about the branding.

 

[DobbsRover2]

All interesting stuff. The conditioning program comment reminds me of an NY Times article the other day about the anti-ACL training regimen that is critical especially to women's soccer and BB teams. Nothing particularly new in the article except the campaign being waged to convince teams at all levels to make the PEP programs part of every team's warm-ups involves the use of cost effective analysis to show how financially advantageous it is to go with plyometrics. And of course it likely saves huge amounts of anguish.

But a lot of programs probably do focus more on pure strength training instead of the agility exercises. Sounds from what you say that Duke may be in that situation, and I hope UConn is not.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Someone above was talking about Al Brown, Mr. Sweater, who was formerly at Tennessee Women and before that, Men.

Yes, he is a career assistant.

Yes, I believe he is (or was) generally considered one of the better basketball minds.

I however have no clue what he does for JPM at Duke, I think he was with her in Michigan and appeared more effective there.

 

[Sakibomb25]

McCallie seems to be the type of coach who knows how to put together a team of overachievers. However, once she gets her hands on elite talent, she has no clue what to do with them.

 

[msf22b]

If you watch the replay of the Duke/UConn game this fall (YouTube) , she seems to be in hysterics (negative)
when her kids make a good play.

Could never understand that.

 

[pap49cba]

Someone above was talking about Al Brown, Mr. Sweater, who was formerly at Tennessee Women and before that, Men.

Yes, he is a career assistant.

Yes, I believe he is (or was) generally considered one of the better basketball minds.

I however have no clue what he does for JPM at Duke, I think he was with her in Michigan and appeared more effective there.

You mean the sweater guy who told the Duke season ticket holders before the UConn game that Stewart is a "terrible defender"? You know, the girl that just went >100 blocks for the season?

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

You mean the sweater guy who told the Duke season ticket holders before the UConn game that Stewart is a "terrible defender"? You know, the girl that just went >100 blocks for the season?

I didn't say I thought he was a great basketball mind, only that I have read articles saying so by folks who ought to know.

 

[Vowelguy]

Al Brown spent a bit of time at TN,...

The way I read the bio, he's a career assistant.

I'm pretty darn grateful we've got a career assistant helping Geno.

 

[Icebear]

Some folks have no interest in being a head coach.

 

[pap49cba]

I didn't say I thought he was a great basketball mind, only that I have read articles saying so by folks who ought to know.

I know. Never thought that was your opinion.

 

[BRS24]

I'm pretty darn grateful we've got a career assistant helping Geno.

I know, that didn't come out right. I just think there's a difference in someone that hops around schools, vs someone that is barely the #2, more like the 1b to the head coach. Call me crazy, but I see a huge difference in CD begin with Geno all these years, and AB spending a few years here and there, but I guess I couldn't frame it with the right words.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Al Brown spent a bit of time at TN, and there are some good quotes from Geno in a book, about Al taking notes during an NCAA practice, so Geno threw some sets in there that he wasn't going to use in the games.

Interesting quote in his bio - 'Brown has produced numerous winning teams and is widely considered one of the best basketball minds in the game today."

The way I read the bio, he's a career assistant.

Yeah, you read it like I read it: career journeyman. His bio is a long, rambling, strange trying too hard read. He also gives a pre-home game talk to the boosters group. It was there before the UConn game last December that he proclaimed to the worried faithful that Stewie could not play defense. I think he is McCallie's step and fetch and buffer. His title is Ass't Coach.

 

[jdubct]

SakiBomb, if Goestenkors stays at Duke, Nneka Ogwumike goes to Duke. That would have changed the landscape of women's basketball. I believe it is quite possible Duke may have eventually ended up with a national title had Goestenkors stayed at Duke.
.

At least one national title and Chiney might have followed her sister to Duke.

 

[UcMiami]

Cam - you seem very down on the trainer for WBB - is this based on specific knowledge of the philosophy being used or a general observation. I am curious because we fans generally think very highly of Rosemary Ragle our head trainer, but I have always considered the training staffs at universities to be (with the possible exception of football) a fairly homogenous group - they use the same facilities often at the same time, often move from sport to sport within the department, and tend to be colleagial. With Duke having such a strong medical school one would think the training staff in general would have great training and resources. Just curious.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Cam - you seem very down on the trainer for WBB - is this based on specific knowledge of the philosophy being used or a general observation. I am curious because we fans generally think very highly of Rosemary Ragle our head trainer, but I have always considered the training staffs at universities to be (with the possible exception of football) a fairly homogenous group - they use the same facilities often at the same time, often move from sport to sport within the department, and tend to be colleagial. With Duke having such a strong medical school one would think the training staff in general would have great training and resources. Just curious.

It is not so much the training staff, as they are very bright, but the dictates of the head coach, whose edict is to build strength, not cardiovascular/endurance training.

 

[pap49cba]

It is not so much the training staff, as they are very bright, but the dictates of the head coach, whose edict is to build strength, not cardiovascular/endurance training.

Well, Duke did seem to be a very 'strong' team.