Pledge of allegiance at UConn games

[Icebear]

Really compelling comments here, and by Icebear regarding different faiths. Up to now, I completely understood the valid issue atheistic or agnostic parents had with ‘under God.’ It was beyond me that anyone might also look at that as meaning exclusively Christian today. Thanks again.

Too often we only view the world from our own narrow experience and view of the world. Really it is all we can do until that viewpoint is shifted by some event or experience. It can be experiences in serving in the military, living overseas, loss of a loved one, a transitional threshold in life like getting married or the birth of one's child.

Living in PA among various orders or Mennonite and Amish and even Quakers and regularly interacting with them has shifted my very homogenized New England roots as these things are viewed by sincere and devout persons. One of the great gifts of communication and sharing is that it can in some small way take us into another world view for at least a mement and in some small way leading us to reflect on other possibilities.

 

[meyers7]

I wasn't suggesting as to whether it was disrespectful, it is, but as to whether there are times when disrespect can be required. To propose that one does it out of simple respect should consider whether disrespect may be appropriate or even necessary.

But as I can gather, you agree with me it is disrespectful, which was my point.

People can certainly choose to be disrespectful.

 

[meyers7]

It was a different time and a different historical context. The Civil War was just decades before and slaves were freed, the Industrial Revolution was rising in full force, child labor laws were emerging, socialist ideas and optimism about egalitarian ideals were flourishing. Bellamy was at a point of intersection expressing his belief of Utopianism and the stark reality of human conflict and enduring self interest. Not sure stupid is the description I would use but incredibly naive, sure. But from where we stand the view is much clearer.

If he wrote the republic about his republic (which was the USA), then argued not to have the words USA, then yes, it was a stupid argument. I don't think he was naive, just stupid. The stupidity is in the contradicting of himself.

 

[RoyDodger]

I have never actually been to a UConn game, but I would be very strongly opposed to any kind of super-patriotism, whether with a religious tinge or not. Religion and forced false patriotism have no place at a public university and no place at a sporting event. People go to sports events to have fun, not to be forced into waving the flag, praying, or being ostracized for not going along. It's a very dangerous trend. Incidentally, a lot of people associate patriotism with hands over heart and flying flags. That's not patriotism, it's borderline fascism. I associate patriotism with love and respect for the basic tenets of our Constitution, including freedom of speech and religion, and the separation of church and state. There should also be a separation of sports and politics.

This is from the World Vision website. Whether they do positive things or not, this kind of association does not belong at a public institution like UConn:

"World Vision is an international partnership of Christians whose mission is to follow our Lord and Savior in working with the poor and oppressed to promote human transformation, seek justice, and bear witness to the good news of the Kingdom of God."

 

[HuskyNan]

And was he "forced" to take his hat off?

If he is free to disrespect the anthem/flag, then I think people should be free to express their displeasure with someone who does ( I probably wouldn't). But they would still have the freedom to continue their disrespect.

I was going to let this go but it's been bothering me so here goes...

I am dismayed that someone would think it's OK to harass and intimidate a person who has a different belief or who thinks differently than they do - and call it patriotism. I dislike bullies in any venue, whether it's at a basketball game or on the Boneyard, and that includes verbal bullies.

How have we gotten to the point where we respect, some to the point of revering, a flag more than other human beings and how is this in any way OK? It's not patriotism, it's abusing the flag by wrapping oneself in it in order to justify bad behavior.

 

[meyers7]

I am dismayed that someone would think it's OK to harass and intimidate a person who has a different belief or who thinks differently than they do - and call it patriotism. I dislike bullies in any venue, whether it's at a basketball game or on the Boneyard, and that includes verbal bullies.

Well I don't think it is ok to harass and intimidate (well there are times for harrassment and intimidation but that's completely different - for instance harassing the electric company to get your power back). I don't think asking someone to be respectful is harassing them or intimidating them. And it's not harassing someone because they have a different belief, it would be harassing them because they are being disrespectful.

But I consider being disrespectful, harassing and intimidation to all be bad. You seem to think that being disrespectful is ok. And it dismays me that someone would think it's ok to be disrespectful to not only the flag and one's country, but also to the men and women who have fought and died for their right to be disrespectful.

How have we gotten to the point where we respect or even revere a flag more than other human beings and how is this in any way OK?

Well we've gotten to the point where respect for animals is greater than for humans. We (not we you and I, but we collectively as a society) devalue humans all the time. Not saying any of this is ok, but it is the reality.

It's not patriotism, it's abusing the flag by wrapping oneself in it in order to justify bad behavior.

And being disrespectful is not bad behavior? Why is one kind of bad behavior ok with you and other kinds not?

 

[HuskyNan]

Well I don't think it is ok to harass and intimidate (well there are times for harrassment and intimidation but that's completely different - for instance harassing the electric company to get your power back). I don't think asking someone to be respectful is harassing them or intimidating them. And it's not harassing someone because they have a different belief, it would be harassing them because they are being disrespectful.

But I consider being disrespectful, harassing and intimidation to all be bad. You seem to think that being disrespectful is ok. And it dismays me that someone would think it's ok to be disrespectful to not only the flag and one's country, but also to the men and women who have fought and died for their right to be disrespectful.

Well we've gotten to the point where respect for animals is greater than for humans. We (not we you and I, but we collectively as a society) devalue humans all the time. Not saying any of this is ok, but it is the reality.

And being disrespectful is not bad behavior? Why is one kind of bad behavior ok with you and other kinds not?

So someone that's standing quietly during the anthem but who hasn't removed his hat is not only disrespecting the flag but also our men & women in the armed forces? And this disrespect is so great that it's ok for the people around him to shout rudely at him? I couldn't disagree with you more strongly.

Just to let you know, I'm dropping this now as this is one of my hot buttons, people that can justify any rude or even mean behavior without any qualms because they're blind, indifferent or uncaring of others' opinions. I don't want to be rude myself.

 

[boontonbomber]

I have never actually been to a UConn game, but I would be very strongly opposed to any kind of super-patriotism, whether with a religious tinge or not. Religion and forced false patriotism have no place at a public university and no place at a sporting event. People go to sports events to have fun, not to be forced into waving the flag, praying, or being ostracized for not going along. It's a very dangerous trend. Incidentally, a lot of people associate patriotism with hands over heart and flying flags. That's not patriotism, it's borderline fascism. I associate patriotism with love and respect for the basic tenets of our Constitution, including freedom of speech and religion, and the separation of church and state. There should also be a separation of sports and politics.

This is from the World Vision website. Whether they do positive things or not, this kind of association does not belong at a public institution like UConn:

"World Vision is an international partnership of Christians whose mission is to follow our Lord and Savior in working with the poor and oppressed to promote human transformation, seek justice, and bear witness to the good news of the Kingdom of God."

i very much appreciate your last 3 sentences. they express my feelings perfectly on "forced" shows of patriotism. they are,in fact, nothing more than a show.
p.s. and my appreciation of your words is in no way related to the fact that i have been a dodgers fan since 1947.

 

[Icebear]

I want to thank evertyone for the excellent and respectful discussion about a topic that can be deeply passionate and devisive. That fact is a strong indication of how diverse we are as people and how we react to the actions of others. Those actions are often well intended but often not fully thought through in all their ramifications.
I, too, am passionate about many things related to the topic and hope that no one is offended or hurt but what has been offered. Blessings.

 

[meyers7]

So someone that's standing quietly during the anthem but who hasn't removed his hat is not only disrespecting the flag but also our men & women in the armed forces?

I would say yes. You obviously don't agree. We just have different views of respect.

It's really a simple courtesy, and fairly disrespectful not to.

And this disrespect is so great that it's ok for the people around him to shout rudely at him?

As I said I do not believe that. Why do you insist that I do? I believe they would not be out of line to say something to the person about being disrespectful. (I personally probably would not. You usually don't get very far with jerks/disrespectful people.) But shouting would be disrespectful. I am against being disrespectful, unlike you who seems to believe it's ok sometimes.

Again, why do you insist on someone who is being disrespectful, be given respect? And that it is ok for this person to be disrespectful but not another?

Just to let you know, I'm dropping this now as this is one of my hot buttons, people that can justify any rude or even mean behavior without any qualms because they're blind, indifferent or uncaring of others' opinions. I don't want to be rude myself.

Obviously, as you have tried to do. (i.e. I consider being disrespectful as rude, obviously we disagree here.)

 

[spoop]

As I said I do not believe that. Why do you insist that I do? I believe they would not be out of line to say something to the person about being disrespectful. (I personally probably would not. You usually don't get very far with jerks/disrespectful people.) But shouting would be disrespectful. I am against being disrespectful, unlike you who seems to believe it's ok sometimes.

Again, why do you insist on someone who is being disrespectful, be given respect? And that it is ok for this person to be disrespectful but not another?)

You're operating on two very different definitions of disrespect. To delve any deeper into debate with questions like "Again, why do you insist on someone who is being disrespectful, be given respect?" is completely fruitless if you haven't established a common meaning of disrespect, and from what I can tell your definitions of disrespect are too far apart for that to happen.

 

[meyers7]

You're operating on two very different definitions of disrespect. To delve any deeper into debate with questions like "Again, why do you insist on someone who is being disrespectful, be given respect?" is completely fruitless if you haven't established a common meaning of disrespect, and from what I can tell your definitions of disrespect are too far apart for that to happen.

I agree, we do seem to have different views on respect/disrespect. ( I think I stated that didn't I??)

 

[RoyDodger]

I was going to let this go but it's been bothering me so here goes...

I am dismayed that someone would think it's OK to harass and intimidate a person who has a different belief or who thinks differently than they do - and call it patriotism. I dislike bullies in any venue, whether it's at a basketball game or on the Boneyard, and that includes verbal bullies.

How have we gotten to the point where we respect, some to the point of revering, a flag more than other human beings and how is this in any way OK? It's not patriotism, it's abusing the flag by wrapping oneself in it in order to justify bad behavior.

Nan, absolutely wonderful response. Thank you.

 

[Kibitzer]

I have never been more proud to be a Boneyarder as I watched this thread develop and watched people with widely divergent views express themselves candidly but always respectfully and courteously (even when it hurt a bit) to those who most certainly held an opposing perspective.

Please, if we disagree, let's continue to avoid being disagreeable.

 

[UConnCat]

As we expected, the media was all over the pledge issue tonight. John A's latest reports that indeed reciting the pledge before UConn sporting events is the brainchild of AD Pendergast. Geno weighed in with his typical humor but a surprising lack of historical knowledge on the pledge. Geno, a history buff, clearly has some reading to do on the subject. No Geno, Thomas Jefferson did not write the pledge of allegiance; nor did any of the other founding fathers.

Bria Hartley thinks it's okay; she knows the words. Thanks John.

http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn...ce-before-every-game-20111130,0,5830556.story

 

[UConn990411]

It wasn't meant to be a serious comment - you'll see that when his postgame presser is put online.

 

[DaddyChoc]

As we expected, the media was all over the pledge issue tonight.
http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn...ce-before-every-game-20111130,0,5830556.story

not surprised

posters should get a percentage of the pay

 

[dibster]

It started at the early games at Gampel. I think it started at Veteran's Day because they had Vets doing it. It has nothing to do with sponsorship that I know of.

 

[Icebear]

Interesting to learn the origin of its use and how Pendergast's involvement came about. My most regular use has been in a similar context at our Lion's Club meetings where we open with it and My Country Tis of Thee.

 

[meyers7]

Please, if we disagree, let's continue to avoid being disagreeable.

Ahhh, but then where's all the fun?

 

[Phil]

I have never been more proud to be a Boneyarder as I watched this thread develop and watched people with widely divergent views express themselves candidly but always respectfully and courteously (even when it hurt a bit) to those who most certainly held an opposing perspective.

Please, if we disagree, let's continue to avoid being disagreeable.

Good point. I cringed a bit when I saw the subject, thinking it would generate some strong repsonses. And it has, but it hasn't (yet) degenerated.

 

[magic]

I'm a veteran, but are they going to pass out american flags to wave during the game next? SHEESH!

 

[ruskin]

Only. In. Connecticut.

It's "freedom of religion" not "freedom from religion."

Don't like it? Do what UConn fans of all sports are famous for, and casually arrive after tipoff.

I bet Texas A&M's players will gladly participate next week.

Last week at start of Manchester Road Race I was pleasantly surprised when crowd of runners/fans joined in with the anthem. For a second I thought I wasn't in CT anymore. Sadly, this reminds me I am.

 

[boontonbomber]

Only. In. Connecticut.

It's "freedom of religion" not "freedom from religion."

Don't like it? Do what UConn fans of all sports are famous for, and casually arrive after tipoff.

I bet Texas A&M's players will gladly participate next week.

Last week at start of Manchester Road Race I was pleasantly surprised when crowd of runners/fans joined in with the anthem. For a second I thought I wasn't in CT anymore. Sadly, this reminds me I am.

actually not "only in connecticut", because in mass. we also appreciate freedom FROM mention of god at our athletic contests. except maybe when yelling at referees.

 

[meyers7]

actually not "only in connecticut", because in mass. we also appreciate freedom FROM mention of god at our athletic contests. except maybe when yelling at referees.

Oh the horrors, someone mentioned God. geez some people.

 

[ruskin]

Way too much energy/time expended on this issue because folks are set in their beliefs. IMO dont think pledge=prayer, nor does paying cash (In God We Trust).
One of the many divisive issues between blue/red states. It's too bad.

 

[mr006]

Way too much energy/time expended on this issue because folks are set in their beliefs. IMO dont think pledge=prayer, nor does paying cash (In God We Trust). One of the many divisive issues between blue/red states. It's too bad.

a) Do you think that both sides have spent too much time on and energy on it?
b) I don't think that "Only. In. Connecticut" is fair. After all, we ARE Connecticut. This is how we are. Shouldn't have to apologize for it. There's 49 other states (and a multitude of other nations) with other options.
c) I also am very pleasantly surprised and pleased that this thread has made it this far without having to be locked. Good job!
d) @Boonton: "We also appreciate freedom FROM mention of god at our athletic contests. except maybe when yelling at referees." Great line!

 

[spoop]

It's "freedom of religion" not "freedom from religion."

This would matter, if there weren't such a thing as separation of church and state...
And before anyone mentions that the phrase "separation of church and state" isn't actually found in the constitution, neither is "freedom of religion".

 

[Icebear]

Oh the horrors, someone mentioned God. geez some people.

It is not empty "horrors" at the mention of God for many but the casual "enslavement" or "attachment" of God to nationalistic ritual and "endorsement" of casual athletic activities or to slogans on money. President Theodore Roosevelt considered it sacrilege in that manner.

In many ways it is the use of God's name in a trivialized manner. Israel and many Jews to this day held and hold God's name as so inviolate as to never speak or write its representation. In contrast we speak as if it is such a trivial manner as not even to be worthy of notice or bother when we toss it into the midst of a public ceremony.

 

[Icebear]

This would matter, if there weren't such a thing as separation of church and state...
And before anyone mentions that the phrase "separation of church and state" isn't actually found in the constitution, neither is "freedom of religion".

As you said,
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

No mention of either the terms freedom of or from religion.

It's "freedom of religion" not "freedom from religion.

Sorry, but you are wrong, it is freedom from a government establishment of religion held in tension with a promise of the right of free exercise. The reasons were well debated among the founding fathers. Madison, particularly, gave light to the concerns in Federalist #10 which discusses factionalism including religion, as well as, the tension between democracy and a republic and the needs to protect all from the forces of factions and their attempts to power and force of action or compliance by use of government compulsion.

It is commonly referred to as "the establishment" clause.