Pete Rose, 'Shoeless' Joe Jackson among players reinstated by MLB | The Boneyard

Pete Rose, 'Shoeless' Joe Jackson among players reinstated by MLB

Man's Field said:
There is no place for ethics in sports. Save it for politics.
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I'm OK with Rose being reinstated, but this is a ridiculous statement, unless you're talking about off-the-field conduct exclusively.

The problem with Rose is that his sins weren't really committed "off the field." As the Reds manager, he bet on Reds games dozens of times. And while he bet on the Reds, it's an open question as to whether he made certain decisions to win a game he bet on at the expense of the following game. His denials, defenses, and excuses were constantly evolving.

None of that affects what he did on the field as a player, though, and ultimately I'm OK with this.

Maybe I drank the Kool Aid, but I've always thought Shoeless Joe was railroaded. His WS performance speaks for itself.

Bucky - this one's for you!
 
nomar said:
I'm OK with Rose being reinstated, but this is a ridiculous statement, unless you're talking about off-the-field conduct exclusively.

The problem with Rose is that his sins weren't really committed "off the field." As the Reds manager, he bet on Reds games dozens of times. And while he bet on the Reds, it's an open question as to whether he made certain decisions to win a game he bet on at the expense of the following game. His denials, defenses, and excuses were constantly evolving.

None of that affects what he did on the field as a player, though, and ultimately I'm OK with this.

Maybe I drank the Kool Aid, but I've always thought Shoeless Joe was railroaded. His WS performance speaks for itself.

Bucky - this one's for you!
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There should be a Hall of Shame wing for Rose, Clemen's, etc.
 
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Really bothers me that they wait until Rose passes. I had this debate with with an older guys in his late 70’s who is the owner of the company I work for. This was about a month or so ago. I told him that if I was Rose, I would want my family to say thanks but no thanks, if this exact scenario happened after I passed. And not in those words. He disagreed with me. I know rules are rules but after so much time has passed and at least he bet to win. I do understand in changes things for future games but the way you manage that one game to win, but at some point I think you move on. I’m also conflicted with the whole Menendez brothers in the same way. People lost their lives and they are never coming back, but if they were sexually abused isn’t 35 years enough? They have been rehabilitated it seems so, I think they deserve a chance only because of the MAYBE being sexually assaulted. If there was a way to know for sure and they weren’t abused, then it’s a no, you never get out. With Rose he didn’t do something so bad that after so much time, he shouldn’t have been let in. That to me has always been sad. People make mistakes and if it’s forgivable then it’s ok to do so and move on. The baseball people always acted like he killed someone. I always felt for the guy. That’s why I would want my family to tell the hall of fame to go to hell! It’s a slap in the face to wait til the guy dies. Maybe bad timing but I don’t know, but no thanks.
 
uconnever said:
Until Judge recently, Bonds was easily the best I’ve seen, he was unbelievable.
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Bonds would probably have hit 450-500 HRs and stolen 450-500 bases clean. I think watching Sosa and McGwire get all of the glory juiced up broke something in him.
 
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UconnU said:
Barry Bonds had an OPS of .610 one year, steroids alone doesnt do that. The pitchers were on roids too. He deserves to be a hall of famer.
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This is a joke without including Bonds and Clemens in the conversation. Shoeless Joe and Rose made more of a mockery of the sport than either one of them.
 
UconnU said:
Barry Bonds had an OPS of .610 one year, steroids alone doesnt do that. The pitchers were on roids too. He deserves to be a hall of famer.
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Only ones I heard about being on steroids were hitters. Bonds, McGuire big time, Sosa, ARod, and many others. Maybe Clemons, but that’s debatable. If Bonds gets the HOF, I’m turning in my cleats.
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Deepster said:
It was a lifetime ban.
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The ban had nothing to do with his lifetime - that’s why Joe Jackson was still banned however many decades after he passed.

They were “permanently ineligible.”

Manfred came up with some inane rationale today for the policy change that makes it look even worse. It boils down to “they’re dead and cannot hurt the game anymore.”

Basically, he didn’t want to deal with the heat of Rose making a spectacle out of a Hall of Fame induction and now he doesn’t want the heat of dealing with any kind of public pressure to lift the ban. He’s just an empty suit.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Very overdue. Let them vote. No need to prevent a vote. The PEDS accused guys need to get in too.
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They all should be in. MLB promoted the ever living hell out of the steroid users knowing full well they were all on steroids. There was even the narrative the home run chase saved the sport.

Over half the league was probably using and there are known users in there who couldn't hold a candle to Bonds and Clemens. We all know Bonds would have nowhere near 763 and 73 in a season, put an asterisk next to it or whatever but Bonds was the best player of his generation and Clemens was the best pitcher of his generation. Also put Schilling in there, he was the best big game pitcher. It's ridiculous he's being penalized for being an enormous jerk.
 
So...will the PED crew start getting elected as they pass away individually? Or, as a group. once a couple cross over? (asking for a middle-age plus former player, er, I mean, for a friend)
 
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superjohn said:
They all should be in. MLB promoted the ever living hell out of the steroid users knowing full well they were all on steroids. There was even the narrative the home run chase saved the sport.

Over half the league was probably using and there are known users in there who couldn't hold a candle to Bonds and Clemens. We all know Bonds would have nowhere near 763 and 73 in a season, put an asterisk next to it or whatever but Bonds was the best player of his generation and Clemens was the best pitcher of his generation. Also put Schilling in there, he was the best big game pitcher. It's ridiculous he's being penalized for being an enormous jerk.
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Bonds and Clemens both did enough to get in even before they were evidently using. Bonds sure wasn’t jacked up in Pittsburgh and Clemens started post Red Sox. It’s silly. Marginal guys like McGuire, ok, maybe. Bagwell is in isn’t he?
 
TheHorde said:
Bonds would probably have hit 450-500 HRs and stolen 450-500 bases clean. I think watching Sosa and McGwire get all of the glory juiced up broke something in him.
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It did. McGwire and Sosa got all the media attention and endorsements and Bonds wanted some of that.

His stats in his first 10 years when he wasn't yet using were certainly on a HoF path. He was already at 74 bWAR, which would've tied him with Reggie Jackson at 87th highest WAR. And he was only 30.

I suppose if you let some of the PED guys in, you have to let them all in. But I really don't want to see Rafael Palmeiro get that honor. I still remember his testimony, that lying pos.
 
storrsroars said:
Fishy said:
The ban had nothing to do with his lifetime - that’s why Joe Jackson was still banned however many decades after he passed.

They were “permanently ineligible.”

Manfred came up with some inane rationale today for the policy change that makes it look even worse. It boils down to “they’re dead and cannot hurt the game anymore.”

Basically, he didn’t want to deal with the heat of Rose making a spectacle out of a Hall of Fame induction and now he doesn’t want the heat of dealing with any kind of public pressure to lift the ban. He’s just an empty suit.
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ChatGPT says “the literal lifetime aspect ends with death, the consequences and status of the ban do not expire unless MLB explicitly lifts them.”
 
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TheHorde said:
Bonds would probably have hit 450-500 HRs and stolen 450-500 bases clean. I think watching Sosa and McGwire get all of the glory juiced up broke something in him.
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Makes me wonder how many Jimmie Foxx or Mantle or Ruth would’ve had, had they had them back in those days. Foxx had arguably the single greatest season in MLB history in 1932…58hr….169rbi…..364avg……213hits….1.218ops
 
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Deepster said:
ChatGPT says “the literal lifetime aspect ends with death, the consequences and status of the ban do not expire unless MLB explicitly lifts them.”
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As I said, they were not lifetime bans - they were permanent bans. Even their ghosts were not welcome in baseball.

But, on his own accord, Manfred effectively reinterpreted the rule today, so like 20 people are not longer banned because they cleverly died.

Cynically, I feel like Manfred did this because MLB can now have a big Pete Rose weekend at the Hall without the potentially embarrassing details - that detail being Pete Rose himself showing up and trying to relitigate his case from the podium.
 
Piazza is in the HOF, so put the rest of the steroid users in. I'm convinced Nolan Ryan was a late career user, he looked washed up in 86 and was throwing no hitters in 94.
 
Fishy said:
I really don’t care one way or another, but why wait until the guy is dead?

Feels a little cowardly.
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As for Shoeless Joe, he died in 1951. Apparently he didn't have any biological children, but one of the nephews he and his wife raised along with an apparent great-great-grandson (not sure how that's possible) named after him are still around to enjoy the moment he's inducted if they can hang on for another few years.

Geeez, could they have possibly waited any longer!?!?

I've seen a documentary or two on him where he apparently hit the cover off the ball during that Black Sox series where some players apparently threw the world series. I'm sure his life sucked after being thrown out of baseball while he was one of the best players in the game at the time.

As for Rose, although he was a hell of a player, he was an arrogant SOB and a flat out liar never really owning up to what he did. At this point just vote him into the Hall of Fame so that we no longer have to talk about him.
 
HuskyHawk said:
Bonds and Clemens both did enough to get in even before they were evidently using. Bonds sure wasn’t jacked up in Pittsburgh and Clemens started post Red Sox. It’s silly. Marginal guys like McGuire, ok, maybe. Bagwell is in isn’t he?
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Bagwell never tested positive, there's other guys who tested positive who are already in the Hall of Fame. Of course it doesn't mean Bagwell wasn't doing it along with plenty of other guys who are already in. It was ubiquitous in MLB and in all professional sports, it still is.
 
If the fiction book by Matt Christopher (?) I read in 2nd grade was based on truth like it claimed then Shoeless Joe was railroaded and never deserved to be banned
 
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