Perspective on KLS vs. Asia and Arike

[DefenseBB]

I would like a little rules clarification here. Are we allowed to criticize UConn players or not? I see it's clearly fair game to go after other players.

When you make just plain dumb assertions without ANY FACTS OR EVIDENCE to support these claims, then yes, you will be rebuked. So, what evidence do you have to criticize a 2 time first team All-American that she isn’t performing to your satisfaction? This should be interesting....

 

[Waquoit]

When you make just plain dumb assertions without ANY FACTS OR EVIDENCE to support these claims, then yes, you will be rebuked. So, what evidence do you have to criticize a 2 time first team All-American that she isn’t performing to your satisfaction? This should be interesting....

Like I've said before, how should you judge a UConn player? By how they play against the varsity or how they play against the JV? UConn has played three contending teams (the varsity) this year and she's shooting 14-45 against them (31%). That's just not acceptable from your 2-time AA senior known for her shooting. Who cares about padding your stats against a team you beat by 60 (the JV)? I don't see what's wrong holding her to a higher standard. If UConn is going win again she has to do better.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Given the situation, the time of the game, and a taller defender on her (Pheesa) it was kind of a "miracle" shot. One of 2 that ESPN went stop showing... in the old days they were on tape and we could hope the tape would wear out.

You are braced for the NCAAs I hope.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Please list the UConn players in the last ten years that made a shot that won a national semi-final or championship the way Arike did. We will wait for your response.

So, not a shot to win a big game, but limiting the universe to a shot to win one of the last two games of the season. Nice. Add to that the fact that UConn usually is not involved in a close game in the tournament. Nice. And this proves what exactly?

 

[JonathanXIV]

Like I've said before, how should you judge a UConn player? By how they play against the varsity or how they play against the JV? UConn has played three contending teams (the varsity) this year and she's shooting 14-45 against them (31%). That's just not acceptable from your 2-time AA senior known for her shooting. Who cares about padding your stats against a team you beat by 60 (the JV)? I don't see what's wrong holding her to a higher standard. If UConn is going win again she has to do better.

Three games is your evidence? First, UConn has played more than 3 teams in the top 50 (or do you define "varsity" to mean only teams in the top 5). Second, go back to your statistics class and remember what it said about drawing conclusions from very small samples.

 

[Grad1990]

Please list the UConn players in the last ten years that made a shot that won a national semi-final or championship the way Arike did. We will wait for your response.

Silly query.

Uconn did lose the two semi finals...but they have never lost a championship game. Most all of their championship games have been blowouts, and, as you know, they have more championships than anyone.

 

[Grad1990]

To stray from the offensive stats for a moment, I'll take Durr and KLS over Arike any day because they play defense. Arike picks and chooses when and if she wants to play D, which would never work with Geno. It might not have the impact as the offensive stats being discussed here but to me they're part of the whole.

In UConn's win at ND, the freshman, Williams, made AO look very bad defensively.

 

[Grad1990]

Glad to see this. Asia struck me as primarily a shooter, KLS more an all round player. Why not highlight rebounds? Plus Lou seems to run team. Down the road I see her returning to UConn as head coach.

I, too, am a KLS fan and agree that she is the more rounded player.

That said, Asia has a critical skill important to star status in the WNBA...the ability to create shots anytime, anywhere. Asia has more undeveloped potential....its why she will go high in the draft.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Please list the UConn players in the last ten years that made a shot that won a national semi-final or championship the way Arike did. We will wait for your response.

Bill Mazeroski hit the biggest home run in World Series history. It doesn't make him Willie Mays.

 

[MSSportsGuy]

The POY is likely Ionescu. Durr has been great this season. KLS has been very good as well. Arike has some off nights but is still a very good player.

I think all of them have the potential to be great in the WNBA but one never knows until they take the floor. It’s possible to root for the home player on a team and still affirm others are talented.

 

[nwhoopfan]

It’s possible to root for the home player on a team and still affirm others are talented.

This is a revolutionary idea. Not sure it will catch on w/ the BY though.

 

[JonathanXIV]

This is a revolutionary idea. Not sure it will catch on w/ the BY though.

Not fair. Lots of posts by UConn fans on the Boneyard that are supportive of players from other teams.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Not fair. Lots of posts by UConn fans on the Boneyard that are supportive of players from other teams.

I did use an emoticon, I'm not being entirely serious.

There are BYers that appreciate good players and good teams regardless of what name is on the jersey, and there are BYers that don't abide any praise for anyone other than the team and players in Storrs, CT.

 

['nuff sed]

Is this a reason to compare the second best UCONN player with Arike and Asia. Why not compare them with UCONN's best player, Collier?

I think Geno said who he thought the best player in the country was in the post game today.

 

[DefenseBB]

If the NPOY award were given out now, I would say it would go to Asia Durr as she has been seen in more signature wins and even in their loss to ND, Asia played very well. Sabrina would be Second, mostly due to the rest of the country not having seen her a lot, which is a shame.

 

[MSSportsGuy]

I did use an emoticon, I'm not being entirely serious.

There are BYers that appreciate good players and good teams regardless of what name is on the jersey, and there are BYers that don't abide any praise for anyone other than the team and players in Storrs, CT.

I agree and somewhat regret even mentioning my earlier statement but I shake my head sometimes when I read some of the criticisms at players not part of the Huskies. It was not an attempt to throw shade at a terrific fanbase that is the best place online to discuss women's basketball.

Excited about today (it's technically Sunday) and I just made it to Starkville to see the Lady Dogs and UT.

 

[DaddyChoc]

These stats make it hard to see AO as NPOY in any of the awards...especially when coupled with the other aspect of her game that no one talks about at parties.

oh that def talk about it at parties, just depends on which party

 

[DaddyChoc]

Let me reclarify as I do think Asia is a team player and pretty astute/court savvy player/playmaker (she’s on the short list for team USA!). Katie Lou works hard on the spacing and is excellent inbounds playmaker, whereas Asia on that aspect is a play “receiver”. The inbound set play is an understated skill that we will miss the next year or so.
Where you are clearly mistaken is calling KLS a role player in year 2. She was co-AAC Player of the Year, 1st Team All-American, both of which she deserved. To say otherwise is either willful ignorance (which I don’t think is you) or a perceived bias.

KLS is not Maya, Diana or Stewie and should not be compared to those generational type players. She is though in the same class of player as Rizzotti, Wolters, Ralph, Bird, Charles, Jefferson and Lobo. All her won with other great players. She will be a 3 time AA so to call her a “role” player is a reach.

if you dont squeeze Kaleena M. Lewis onto that list... you're not a UConn fan

 

[Dillon77]

Good thread. I refrained from joining in (for a variety of reasons) but primarily because I wanted to see (yet another) bounce-back game for the Irish vs. Florida State. And I'm glad I did because Kara Lawson was also there and, as is her wont, she gave it straight. Most of this is paraphrased from Lawson during the course of the first three quarters, when Ogunbowale was putting on an Arike+ clinic (for the first time in many a game).
- Arike is fast, much faster than she looks on tape. And she's also strong. Lawson focused on when Arke comes from a wing, cuts off an elevator screen and takes it down the hole. Lawson said you can practice against it and think you have it, but you're not ready for the directed burst of speed.
- Ogunbowale is passing much better this year, particularly on the break. She does an excellent job of drawing the last defender to her then finding the space to get the ball to most feasible shot. Young is her main wing man on these plays, but Mabrey and Shepard are there, too.
- She gets her shot off fast and in tight situations, citing two such plays against FSU that led to threes. Of course, these situations are (too) well-known on this board.
- Lawson thinks Arike is best situated as a wing in the pros, for many of the reasons brought up already, in that it allows her to utilize her strengths.

(BTW, I'm aware of Arike's shortcomings, many/most of which have been pointed out here by others. Perhaps the one that frustrates me most as an Irish fan isn't her inability to play defense (she actually can and did against FSU), it's her inconsistency and, at times, indifference to it. )

I'm not making any comparisons to Ms. Durr or KLS, both of whom are excellent players and bring unique skills sets to the fore. They'll do fine at the next level. While each of us may have our faves when picking a pick-up game from scratch, one can also look at what the WNBA GMs need versus their preferred style of play and/or needs.

(BTW, stepping outside of the guard conversation, I have recently found myself becoming even more of a fan of Jessica Shepard and her ability to do simple, understated things very well. Like hustling and working her you know what off to be in a position to get the ball in the best possible place to score, whether in a half-court set or on the break. And her rebounding and outlet passes are the "put the petal to metal" start of ND's fast break. This young woman is sweating bullets to get better. All power to her...wish we had her all four years.)

 

[DefenseBB]

Good thread. I refrained from joining in (for a variety of reasons) but primarily because I wanted to see (yet another) bounce-back game for the Irish vs. Florida State. And I'm glad I did because Kara Lawson was also there and, as is her wont, she gave it straight. Most of this is paraphrased from Lawson during the course of the first three quarters, when Ogunbowale was putting on an Arike+ clinic (for the first time in many a game).
- Arike is fast, must faster than she looks on tape. And she's also strong. Lawson focused on when Arke comes from a wing, cuts off an elevator screen and takes it down the hole. Lawson said you can practice against it and think you have it, but you're not ready for the burst of speed.
- Ogunbowale is passing much better this year, particularly on the break. She does an excellent job of drawing the last defender to her then finding the space to get the ball to most feasible shot. Young is her main wing man on these plays, but Mabrey and Shepard are there, too.
- She gets her shot off fast and in tight situations, citing two such plays against FSU that led to threes. Of course, these situations are (too) well-known on this board.
- Lawson thinks Arike is best situated as a wing in the pros, for many of the reasons brought up already, in that it allows her to utilize her strengths.

(BTW, I'm aware of Arike's shortcomings, many/most of which have been pointed out here by others. Perhaps the one that frustrates me most as an Irish fan isn't her inability to play defense (she actually can and did against FSU), it's her inconsistency and, at times, indifference to it. )

I'm not making any comparisons to Ms. Durr or KLS, both of whom are excellent players and bring unique skills sets to the fore. They'll do fine at the next level. While each of us may have our faves when picking a pick-up game from scratch, one can also look at what the WNBA GMs need versus their preferred style of play and/or needs.

(BTW, stepping outside of the guard conversation, I have recently found myself becoming even more of a fan of Jessica Shepard and her ability to do simple, understated things very well. Like hustling and working her you know what off to be in a position to get the ball in the best possible place to score, whether in a half-court set or on the break. This young woman is sweating bullets to get better. All power to her...wish we had her all four years.)

“Whirr “ whistle on Dillon77! This thread was about guards/wings and he intentionally brought a forward into the conversation, please edit that last comment and start a different thread with, at a minimum listing Pheesa before anyone else...

 

[Dillon77]

“Whirr “ whistle on Dillon77! This thread was about guards/wings and he intentionally brought a forward into the conversation, please edit that last comment and start a different thread with, at a minimum listing Pheesa before anyone else...

damn...caught Thought I'd take a chance while I could!

 

[hoophuskee]

Agree with the 2 points in the first paragraph —- and agree the collection of accolades and awards are well deserved.

But 1st 2 yrs and most of the 3rd her role was shooter—- and mostly defined as the 3 specialist. Not saying she couldn’t be more at times but that motion offense was designed to make it that way.

As for the rest of the rankings —- in 3’s she is not in the class of KML, who could make her own space.

She is not in the class of Sue, let alone Tina or Mo.

It's not fair, they probably know it, but they can't help it ---- the potion they're drinking is just too powerful

This is the daughter they all dreamed of having.

Same socio-ec background + highly skilled+ girl next door image + coached on her shot by her father !

Reason get tossed out the window --- then they band together in a club for unlimited confirmation bias.

It's more of a religion than fan base.

In bold above can you please explain? We can recall the ND games in which we couldn't beat them down the stretch and lost several in a row. KML couldnt get away from the freshman Jewel Lloyd. ANd this despite having the greatest "pick setter" (Dolson) in UCONN History. And imo KLS is a faster, quicker and ofc longer and taller than KML. Give her a pick-setter like DOlson and she could get off her shot easier. SO she can get more space than KML, right? I can recall down the stretch of those games I wanted UCONN so badly to get the ball to KML. But they couldn't . . . KML couldn't break free. The way KML shot the ball, wouldn't she be the best alternative if she could only break free?

And you referred to KLS as a glorified 3pt shooter? Why no call her a 3pt scorer? Mel Thomas was a 3pt shooter. In the NBA Steve Kerr was a3pt shooter while CLay Thompson is a pt scorer.

And as far as creating space - they lost 1 game on a last second shot. How often were they challenged? I can remember the one game vsND Muffett saying at the Presser that she had to pull her guard and have the freshman guard KLS because of the bad matchup. Then UCONN proceeded to go to a 1-4 set with Lou at the elbow and she took it to the defender - scored or got fouled etc.

And what I highlighted from you in italics - was that a primary response for not including Collier?

 

['nuff sed]

In bold above can you please explain? We can recall the ND games in which we couldn't beat them down the stretch and lost several in a row. KML couldnt get away from the freshman Jewel Lloyd. ANd this despite having the greatest "pick setter" (Dolson) in UCONN History. And imo KLS is a faster, quicker and ofc longer and taller than KML. Give her a pick-setter like DOlson and she could get off her shot easier. SO she can get more space than KML, right? I can recall down the stretch of those games I wanted UCONN so badly to get the ball to KML. But they couldn't . . . KML couldn't break free. The way KML shot the ball, wouldn't she be the best alternative if she could only break free?

And you referred to KLS as a glorified 3pt shooter? Why no call her a 3pt scorer? Mel Thomas was a 3pt shooter. In the NBA Steve Kerr was a3pt shooter while CLay Thompson is a pt scorer.

And as far as creating space - they lost 1 game on a last second shot. How often were they challenged? I can remember the one game vsND Muffett saying at the Presser that she had to pull her guard and have the freshman guard KLS because of the bad matchup. Then UCONN proceeded to go to a 1-4 set with Lou at the elbow and she took it to the defender - scored or got fouled etc.

And what I highlighted from you in italics - was that a primary response for not including Collier?

"In bold above can you please explain? "

uhhh, no

 

[hoophuskee]

"In bold above can you please explain? "

uhhh, no

I didnt think so. It doesnt seem logical.

 

[mbr33ct]

OK. Who else comes to mind?

Since we are talking about passing here, for one you dismissed her [I'm not considering Crystal. Yet]. IMO, Crystal is a much better passer than Lou...and would fair very well when compared to Ionescu in that category.

 

[mbr33ct]

Please list the UConn players in the last ten years that made a shot that won a national semi-final or championship the way Arike did. We will wait for your response.

Was UConn ever in that situation they needed a last second shot to win?

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

A little off this topic, but the concept is here. So I am going to ask. Often when comparing players, some say "he or she can't create their own shot." Or words to that effect. And several posters put this label on Lou. I need help understanding. Because, while I am sure no one "creates their own shot" all the time...some if not most do so at least some of the time. In the case of Lou, I am reminded of a number of plays over the years where she created space from her defender to enable her to get off the shot. a couple examples:
a. 2018 vs ND... 3 plays come to mind:
(1) Lou dribbling down the right side of the court looking for an open team mate... doesn't see anyone open and makes a quick cut to the left across the lane through ND Defenders and goes in to make the lay up with her left hand.
(2) Closely defended by Turner, Lou on the left side of the court, drives toward the baseline on the left side of the key, quickly pulls up, does a quick step, then fade away to put up a shot over Turner (considered a good defender ... at least before her knee injury), to make the jumper.
(3) Closely defended by Turner, top of the key area near the left elbow. Lou drives left, and again, pulls up, goes a quick step back fall away and shoots over Turner, banks in a 2 and gets a foul on Turner for the old fashion 3 point play.
b. in the AAC Championship game vs. USF when she went 10 for 10 from 3pt range, Lou is at top of key, outside 3 pt line, she gets a screen from team mate that the USF defender fights around to get back in front of Lou, then Lou does a quick move left, step back and hits the 3.

I could continue, but these and some of the drives down the lane making layups with the left or right depending on the defense are all examples to me of "creating your own shot"...

I am just trying to get some clarification of "create their own shot"..

thanks

 

['nuff sed]

I didnt think so. It doesnt seem logical.

there is no logic in arguing with religious extremists, or Lou Fanatics

A little off this topic, but the concept is here. So I am going to ask. Often when comparing players, some say "he or she can't create their own shot." Or words to that effect. And several posters put this label on Lou. I need help understanding. Because, while I am sure no one "creates their own shot" all the time...some if not most do so at least some of the time. In the case of Lou, I am reminded of a number of plays over the years where she created space from her defender to enable her to get off the shot. a couple examples:
a. 2018 vs ND... 3 plays come to mind:
(1) Lou dribbling down the right side of the court looking for an open team mate... doesn't see anyone open and makes a quick cut to the left across the lane through ND Defenders and goes in to make the lay up with her left hand.
(2) Closely defended by Turner, Lou on the left side of the court, drives toward the baseline on the left side of the key, quickly pulls up, does a quick step, then fade away to put up a shot over Turner (considered a good defender ... at least before her knee injury), to make the jumper.
(3) Closely defended by Turner, top of the key area near the left elbow. Lou drives left, and again, pulls up, goes a quick step back fall away and shoots over Turner, banks in a 2 and gets a foul on Turner for the old fashion 3 point play.
b. in the AAC Championship game vs. USF when she went 10 for 10 from 3pt range, Lou is at top of key, outside 3 pt line, she gets a screen from team mate that the USF defender fights around to get back in front of Lou, then Lou does a quick move left, step back and hits the 3.

I could continue, but these and some of the drives down the lane making layups with the left or right depending on the defense are all examples to me of "creating your own shot"...

I am just trying to get some clarification of "create their own shot"..

thanks

Most of the observations, and woe's, are regarding the 3's, not the 2's. This year is really her development year into a more complete player, and she's doing that. And rather well right now. I think role in past offenses and injury dumb her development somewhat.

My comments have been more related to the blind devotion to the 3 point shooter the fan base loves. And the comments that elevate her into a position in the pantheon that a previous one trick pony didn't IMO earn. Comments putting her with Sue, Tina, etc are frankly just ridiculous. I never said she wasn't great, I never said she was undeserving. I only make the point that the "adoration" is in my view a bit overdone and misplaced.

Creating space for yourself:

Having the quickness to make a physical adjustment needed to clear space for your vision and release point of your shot.

The efficient physical use of body size and height to clear space.

Elevation of the release point.

Move into another space.

In short, with possession of the ball, to move in such a manner to create the space needed to execute a shot while closely guarded by a defender, without the reliance of a teammate to create that space for you.

Watch Asia, she can score 1 on 5. Anytime. Speed and Quickness.

Swoopes, Cheryl Miller, Diana--- create space -- or see space and just take it --- all by themselves

You can cherry pick all the individual games and plays you want, there are always exceptions to draw on.

 

['nuff sed]

Amazing----the word "re tard ed" is suppressed and replaced by "dumb" by the software.

You need AI filters here to interpret intent.

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

there is no logic in arguing with religious extremists, or Lou Fanatics

Most of the observations, and woe's, are regarding the 3's, not the 2's. This year is really her development year into a more complete player, and she's doing that. And rather well right now. I think role in past offenses and injury dumb her development somewhat.

My comments have been more related to the blind devotion to the 3 point shooter the fan base loves. And the comments that elevate her into a position in the pantheon that a previous one trick pony didn't IMO earn. Comments putting her with Sue, Tina, etc are frankly just ridiculous. I never said she wasn't great, I never said she was undeserving. I only make the point that the "adoration" is in my view a bit overdone and misplaced.

Creating space for yourself:

Having the quickness to make a physical adjustment needed to clear space for your vision and release point of your shot.

The efficient physical use of body size and height to clear space.

Elevation of the release point.

Move into another space.

In short, with possession of the ball, to move in such a manner to create the space needed to execute a shot while closely guarded by a defender, without the reliance of a teammate to create that space for you.

Watch Asia, she can score 1 on 5. Anytime. Speed and Quickness.

Swoopes, Cheryl Miller, Diana--- create space -- or see space and just take it --- all by themselves

You can cherry pick all the individual games and plays you want, there are always exceptions to draw on.

OK... So, from your list of what it takes to "create your own shot"... Lou does it... just not as much as some posters might like. Clearly some do it better or more often, but Lou does it, and while I only listed 4 examples, I did that for brevity. Just something people "toss out there" as a dig.

And... we shouldn't forget... "Chics dig the long ball" is an oft used phrase in Baseball... the corolary in basketball could be "Fans dig the 3"... the 3 can be so majestic arching toward the hoop and the sound of "Swish" is just so classic! So, Yes.... UCONN Fans tend to love the 3 point shot...and shooters who do it well too.