Perspective on KLS vs. Asia and Arike

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#76
I did use an emoticon, I'm not being entirely serious.

There are BYers that appreciate good players and good teams regardless of what name is on the jersey, and there are BYers that don't abide any praise for anyone other than the team and players in Storrs, CT.
I agree and somewhat regret even mentioning my earlier statement but I shake my head sometimes when I read some of the criticisms at players not part of the Huskies. It was not an attempt to throw shade at a terrific fanbase that is the best place online to discuss women's basketball.

Excited about today (it's technically Sunday) and I just made it to Starkville to see the Lady Dogs and UT.
 

DaddyChoc

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#77
These stats make it hard to see AO as NPOY in any of the awards...especially when coupled with the other aspect of her game that no one talks about at parties.
oh that def talk about it at parties, just depends on which party
 

DaddyChoc

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#78
Let me reclarify as I do think Asia is a team player and pretty astute/court savvy player/playmaker (she’s on the short list for team USA!). Katie Lou works hard on the spacing and is excellent inbounds playmaker, whereas Asia on that aspect is a play “receiver”. The inbound set play is an understated skill that we will miss the next year or so.
Where you are clearly mistaken is calling KLS a role player in year 2. She was co-AAC Player of the Year, 1st Team All-American, both of which she deserved. To say otherwise is either willful ignorance (which I don’t think is you) or a perceived bias.

KLS is not Maya, Diana or Stewie and should not be compared to those generational type players. She is though in the same class of player as Rizzotti, Wolters, Ralph, Bird, Charles, Jefferson and Lobo. All her won with other great players. She will be a 3 time AA so to call her a “role” player is a reach.
if you dont squeeze Kaleena M. Lewis onto that list... you're not a UConn fan
 

Dillon77

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#79
Good thread. I refrained from joining in (for a variety of reasons) but primarily because I wanted to see (yet another) bounce-back game for the Irish vs. Florida State. And I'm glad I did because Kara Lawson was also there and, as is her wont, she gave it straight. Most of this is paraphrased from Lawson during the course of the first three quarters, when Ogunbowale was putting on an Arike+ clinic (for the first time in many a game).
- Arike is fast, much faster than she looks on tape. And she's also strong. Lawson focused on when Arke comes from a wing, cuts off an elevator screen and takes it down the hole. Lawson said you can practice against it and think you have it, but you're not ready for the directed burst of speed.
- Ogunbowale is passing much better this year, particularly on the break. She does an excellent job of drawing the last defender to her then finding the space to get the ball to most feasible shot. Young is her main wing man on these plays, but Mabrey and Shepard are there, too.
- She gets her shot off fast and in tight situations, citing two such plays against FSU that led to threes. Of course, these situations are (too) well-known on this board.
- Lawson thinks Arike is best situated as a wing in the pros, for many of the reasons brought up already, in that it allows her to utilize her strengths.

(BTW, I'm aware of Arike's shortcomings, many/most of which have been pointed out here by others. Perhaps the one that frustrates me most as an Irish fan isn't her inability to play defense (she actually can and did against FSU), it's her inconsistency and, at times, indifference to it. )

I'm not making any comparisons to Ms. Durr or KLS, both of whom are excellent players and bring unique skills sets to the fore. They'll do fine at the next level. While each of us may have our faves when picking a pick-up game from scratch, one can also look at what the WNBA GMs need versus their preferred style of play and/or needs.

(BTW, stepping outside of the guard conversation, I have recently found myself becoming even more of a fan of Jessica Shepard and her ability to do simple, understated things very well. Like hustling and working her you know what off to be in a position to get the ball in the best possible place to score, whether in a half-court set or on the break. And her rebounding and outlet passes are the "put the petal to metal" start of ND's fast break. This young woman is sweating bullets to get better. All power to her...wish we had her all four years.)
 
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DefenseBB

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#80
Good thread. I refrained from joining in (for a variety of reasons) but primarily because I wanted to see (yet another) bounce-back game for the Irish vs. Florida State. And I'm glad I did because Kara Lawson was also there and, as is her wont, she gave it straight. Most of this is paraphrased from Lawson during the course of the first three quarters, when Ogunbowale was putting on an Arike+ clinic (for the first time in many a game).
- Arike is fast, must faster than she looks on tape. And she's also strong. Lawson focused on when Arke comes from a wing, cuts off an elevator screen and takes it down the hole. Lawson said you can practice against it and think you have it, but you're not ready for the burst of speed.
- Ogunbowale is passing much better this year, particularly on the break. She does an excellent job of drawing the last defender to her then finding the space to get the ball to most feasible shot. Young is her main wing man on these plays, but Mabrey and Shepard are there, too.
- She gets her shot off fast and in tight situations, citing two such plays against FSU that led to threes. Of course, these situations are (too) well-known on this board.
- Lawson thinks Arike is best situated as a wing in the pros, for many of the reasons brought up already, in that it allows her to utilize her strengths.

(BTW, I'm aware of Arike's shortcomings, many/most of which have been pointed out here by others. Perhaps the one that frustrates me most as an Irish fan isn't her inability to play defense (she actually can and did against FSU), it's her inconsistency and, at times, indifference to it. )

I'm not making any comparisons to Ms. Durr or KLS, both of whom are excellent players and bring unique skills sets to the fore. They'll do fine at the next level. While each of us may have our faves when picking a pick-up game from scratch, one can also look at what the WNBA GMs need versus their preferred style of play and/or needs.

(BTW, stepping outside of the guard conversation, I have recently found myself becoming even more of a fan of Jessica Shepard and her ability to do simple, understated things very well. Like hustling and working her you know what off to be in a position to get the ball in the best possible place to score, whether in a half-court set or on the break. This young woman is sweating bullets to get better. All power to her...wish we had her all four years.)
“Whirr “ whistle on Dillon77! This thread was about guards/wings and he intentionally brought a forward into the conversation, please edit that last comment and start a different thread with, at a minimum listing Pheesa before anyone else...:p:D
 

Dillon77

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#81
“Whirr “ whistle on Dillon77! This thread was about guards/wings and he intentionally brought a forward into the conversation, please edit that last comment and start a different thread with, at a minimum listing Pheesa before anyone else...:p:D
damn...caught ;) Thought I'd take a chance while I could!
 
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#82
Agree with the 2 points in the first paragraph —- and agree the collection of accolades and awards are well deserved.

But 1st 2 yrs and most of the 3rd her role was shooter—- and mostly defined as the 3 specialist. Not saying she couldn’t be more at times but that motion offense was designed to make it that way.

As for the rest of the rankings —- in 3’s she is not in the class of KML, who could make her own space.

She is not in the class of Sue, let alone Tina or Mo.

It's not fair, they probably know it, but they can't help it ---- the potion they're drinking is just too powerful

This is the daughter they all dreamed of having.

Same socio-ec background + highly skilled+ girl next door image + coached on her shot by her father !

Reason get tossed out the window --- then they band together in a club for unlimited confirmation bias.

It's more of a religion than fan base.
In bold above can you please explain? We can recall the ND games in which we couldn't beat them down the stretch and lost several in a row. KML couldnt get away from the freshman Jewel Lloyd. ANd this despite having the greatest "pick setter" (Dolson) in UCONN History. And imo KLS is a faster, quicker and ofc longer and taller than KML. Give her a pick-setter like DOlson and she could get off her shot easier. SO she can get more space than KML, right? I can recall down the stretch of those games I wanted UCONN so badly to get the ball to KML. But they couldn't . . . KML couldn't break free. The way KML shot the ball, wouldn't she be the best alternative if she could only break free?

And you referred to KLS as a glorified 3pt shooter? Why no call her a 3pt scorer? Mel Thomas was a 3pt shooter. In the NBA Steve Kerr was a3pt shooter while CLay Thompson is a pt scorer.

And as far as creating space - they lost 1 game on a last second shot. How often were they challenged? I can remember the one game vsND Muffett saying at the Presser that she had to pull her guard and have the freshman guard KLS because of the bad matchup. Then UCONN proceeded to go to a 1-4 set with Lou at the elbow and she took it to the defender - scored or got fouled etc.

And what I highlighted from you in italics - was that a primary response for not including Collier?
 
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#83
In bold above can you please explain? We can recall the ND games in which we couldn't beat them down the stretch and lost several in a row. KML couldnt get away from the freshman Jewel Lloyd. ANd this despite having the greatest "pick setter" (Dolson) in UCONN History. And imo KLS is a faster, quicker and ofc longer and taller than KML. Give her a pick-setter like DOlson and she could get off her shot easier. SO she can get more space than KML, right? I can recall down the stretch of those games I wanted UCONN so badly to get the ball to KML. But they couldn't . . . KML couldn't break free. The way KML shot the ball, wouldn't she be the best alternative if she could only break free?

And you referred to KLS as a glorified 3pt shooter? Why no call her a 3pt scorer? Mel Thomas was a 3pt shooter. In the NBA Steve Kerr was a3pt shooter while CLay Thompson is a pt scorer.

And as far as creating space - they lost 1 game on a last second shot. How often were they challenged? I can remember the one game vsND Muffett saying at the Presser that she had to pull her guard and have the freshman guard KLS because of the bad matchup. Then UCONN proceeded to go to a 1-4 set with Lou at the elbow and she took it to the defender - scored or got fouled etc.

And what I highlighted from you in italics - was that a primary response for not including Collier?
"In bold above can you please explain? "

uhhh, no
 
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#85
OK. Who else comes to mind?
Since we are talking about passing here, for one you dismissed her [I'm not considering Crystal. Yet]. IMO, Crystal is a much better passer than Lou...and would fair very well when compared to Ionescu in that category.

1549979551489.png
 
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#87
A little off this topic, but the concept is here. So I am going to ask. Often when comparing players, some say "he or she can't create their own shot." Or words to that effect. And several posters put this label on Lou. I need help understanding. Because, while I am sure no one "creates their own shot" all the time...some if not most do so at least some of the time. In the case of Lou, I am reminded of a number of plays over the years where she created space from her defender to enable her to get off the shot. a couple examples:
a. 2018 vs ND... 3 plays come to mind:
(1) Lou dribbling down the right side of the court looking for an open team mate... doesn't see anyone open and makes a quick cut to the left across the lane through ND Defenders and goes in to make the lay up with her left hand.
(2) Closely defended by Turner, Lou on the left side of the court, drives toward the baseline on the left side of the key, quickly pulls up, does a quick step, then fade away to put up a shot over Turner (considered a good defender ... at least before her knee injury), to make the jumper.
(3) Closely defended by Turner, top of the key area near the left elbow. Lou drives left, and again, pulls up, goes a quick step back fall away and shoots over Turner, banks in a 2 and gets a foul on Turner for the old fashion 3 point play.
b. in the AAC Championship game vs. USF when she went 10 for 10 from 3pt range, Lou is at top of key, outside 3 pt line, she gets a screen from team mate that the USF defender fights around to get back in front of Lou, then Lou does a quick move left, step back and hits the 3.

I could continue, but these and some of the drives down the lane making layups with the left or right depending on the defense are all examples to me of "creating your own shot"...

I am just trying to get some clarification of "create their own shot"..

thanks
 
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#88
I didnt think so. It doesnt seem logical.
there is no logic in arguing with religious extremists, or Lou Fanatics
A little off this topic, but the concept is here. So I am going to ask. Often when comparing players, some say "he or she can't create their own shot." Or words to that effect. And several posters put this label on Lou. I need help understanding. Because, while I am sure no one "creates their own shot" all the time...some if not most do so at least some of the time. In the case of Lou, I am reminded of a number of plays over the years where she created space from her defender to enable her to get off the shot. a couple examples:
a. 2018 vs ND... 3 plays come to mind:
(1) Lou dribbling down the right side of the court looking for an open team mate... doesn't see anyone open and makes a quick cut to the left across the lane through ND Defenders and goes in to make the lay up with her left hand.
(2) Closely defended by Turner, Lou on the left side of the court, drives toward the baseline on the left side of the key, quickly pulls up, does a quick step, then fade away to put up a shot over Turner (considered a good defender ... at least before her knee injury), to make the jumper.
(3) Closely defended by Turner, top of the key area near the left elbow. Lou drives left, and again, pulls up, goes a quick step back fall away and shoots over Turner, banks in a 2 and gets a foul on Turner for the old fashion 3 point play.
b. in the AAC Championship game vs. USF when she went 10 for 10 from 3pt range, Lou is at top of key, outside 3 pt line, she gets a screen from team mate that the USF defender fights around to get back in front of Lou, then Lou does a quick move left, step back and hits the 3.

I could continue, but these and some of the drives down the lane making layups with the left or right depending on the defense are all examples to me of "creating your own shot"...

I am just trying to get some clarification of "create their own shot"..

thanks
Most of the observations, and woe's, are regarding the 3's, not the 2's. This year is really her development year into a more complete player, and she's doing that. And rather well right now. I think role in past offenses and injury dumb her development somewhat.

My comments have been more related to the blind devotion to the 3 point shooter the fan base loves. And the comments that elevate her into a position in the pantheon that a previous one trick pony didn't IMO earn. Comments putting her with Sue, Tina, etc are frankly just ridiculous. I never said she wasn't great, I never said she was undeserving. I only make the point that the "adoration" is in my view a bit overdone and misplaced.

Creating space for yourself:

Having the quickness to make a physical adjustment needed to clear space for your vision and release point of your shot.

The efficient physical use of body size and height to clear space.

Elevation of the release point.

Move into another space.

In short, with possession of the ball, to move in such a manner to create the space needed to execute a shot while closely guarded by a defender, without the reliance of a teammate to create that space for you.

Watch Asia, she can score 1 on 5. Anytime. Speed and Quickness.

Swoopes, Cheryl Miller, Diana--- create space -- or see space and just take it --- all by themselves

You can cherry pick all the individual games and plays you want, there are always exceptions to draw on.
 
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#89
Amazing----the word "re tard ed" is suppressed and replaced by "dumb" by the software.

You need AI filters here to interpret intent.
 
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#90
there is no logic in arguing with religious extremists, or Lou Fanatics

Most of the observations, and woe's, are regarding the 3's, not the 2's. This year is really her development year into a more complete player, and she's doing that. And rather well right now. I think role in past offenses and injury dumb her development somewhat.

My comments have been more related to the blind devotion to the 3 point shooter the fan base loves. And the comments that elevate her into a position in the pantheon that a previous one trick pony didn't IMO earn. Comments putting her with Sue, Tina, etc are frankly just ridiculous. I never said she wasn't great, I never said she was undeserving. I only make the point that the "adoration" is in my view a bit overdone and misplaced.

Creating space for yourself:

Having the quickness to make a physical adjustment needed to clear space for your vision and release point of your shot.

The efficient physical use of body size and height to clear space.

Elevation of the release point.

Move into another space.

In short, with possession of the ball, to move in such a manner to create the space needed to execute a shot while closely guarded by a defender, without the reliance of a teammate to create that space for you.

Watch Asia, she can score 1 on 5. Anytime. Speed and Quickness.

Swoopes, Cheryl Miller, Diana--- create space -- or see space and just take it --- all by themselves

You can cherry pick all the individual games and plays you want, there are always exceptions to draw on.
OK... So, from your list of what it takes to "create your own shot"... Lou does it... just not as much as some posters might like. Clearly some do it better or more often, but Lou does it, and while I only listed 4 examples, I did that for brevity. Just something people "toss out there" as a dig.

And... we shouldn't forget... "Chics dig the long ball" is an oft used phrase in Baseball... the corolary in basketball could be "Fans dig the 3"... the 3 can be so majestic arching toward the hoop and the sound of "Swish" is just so classic! So, Yes.... UCONN Fans tend to love the 3 point shot...and shooters who do it well too.
 
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#91
OK... So, from your list of what it takes to "create your own shot"... Lou does it... just not as much as some posters might like. Clearly some do it better or more often, but Lou does it, and while I only listed 4 examples, I did that for brevity. Just something people "toss out there" as a dig.
And... "comments putting her with Sue, Tina, etc..." were Posters acknowledging a Career Milestone... nothing more, nothing less. As Kara Wolters said on the pregame show recently, she did her scoring from the 2 point range because she didn't take 3s... but that should NOT be held against someone who can shoot 3s. Just sayin!
 
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#92
And... "comments putting her with Sue, Tina, etc..." were Posters acknowledging a Career Milestone... nothing more, nothing less. As Kara Wolters said on the pregame show recently, she did her scoring from the 2 point range because she didn't take 3s... but that should NOT be held against someone who can shoot 3s. Just sayin!
The rationalizations and excuses and misinterpretations never end.

Creating space for yourself—- means picks don’t count.

3’s vs 2’s —— right now, I like to see her score the 2’s — in traffic, drawing fouls, —- with the 3’s in her back pocket —— it should be abundantly clear by now, that there are some matchups that take the corner 3 away from her. There are some situations where she is worth more inside than outside.

All I ever said was this year she needed to do more—-but Lou religion didn’t allow that. She’s doing it now.

Geezuz - Give her credit for upping her game instead of adorating the lesser Lou, because she just wasn’t “all that”.

And last night you saw players who could take her off the dribble at will defensively. Not a knock - just an observation. There will be more of them in the tournament with guard strong teams.

Nobody’s holding anything against anybody. Put a banner up but please - no statue.
 

Gus Mahler

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#93
Since we are talking about passing here, for one you dismissed her [I'm not considering Crystal. Yet]. IMO, Crystal is a much better passer than Lou...and would fair very well when compared to Ionescu in that category.

View attachment 39528
The context of the discussion seemed to me to be about the very best players in the country, those who might be considered for NPOY. That's why I was intentionally abstracting away from Crystal. She is clearly among the better players in the country, but is not POY caliber (yet).

You will note, too, that in my post I left open the possibility that SI was better. I haven't seen her much--I don't follow Oregon basketball. I have, however, seen every game that Lou has played in. That she is an outstanding passer--for any position-- is indisputable.
 
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#94
The context of the discussion seemed to me to be about the very best players in the country, those who might be considered for NPOY. That's why I was intentionally abstracting away from Crystal. She is clearly among the better players in the country, but is not POY caliber (yet).

You will note, too, that in my post I left open the possibility that SI was better. I haven't seen her much--I don't follow Oregon basketball. I have, however, seen every game that Lou has played in. That she is an outstanding passer--for any position-- is indisputable.
KLS doesn't make virtually all the half court inbound passing for nothing. She is a superb passer mainly because she is always looking to make a pass unlike most other players in today's game. As I have stated before for such a great offensive force she is a great "team player" sometimes to a fault.
 
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#95
I think Geno said who he thought the best player in the country was in the post game today.
And he said that about Lou last year.... Most think she is better than past years, more complete, outside a shooting slump. They are both great but different players. I can tell you one thing I see that is not in stats, two defenders running to Lou leaving a teammate wide open, even during a huge slump. Taking on extra responsibilities of bringing up the ball, in-bounding, backup (every position,) vocal leadership, etc...

Pheesa is great and I hope she wins POY but to argue Lou is not at the same level is not accurate, just as people debated the same Soph and Junior seasons in the other direction. I thought Pheesa was good last year but was forced to play different or out of place because of the make up of players from the year before changed.

Point is they both bring different skills and value to our team, and I would rather hoist both up than take one down. I first referenced Pheesa as the quiet assassin her Soph year because she cuts you 1000 ways and you don't even realized she dropped 20pts and 10rebs every night.

All that said, its a board and some criticism of a player I think is okay. I appreciate your point about Lou (not) creating her own space. I do not agree 100% because you are comparing her to two of the best players that can do that at a high level and is their strength. Everyone does not have to be able to do that to be good or great. At the next level I think it not as critical. I did not see any of that with Kia and she seems to be doing well at next level.

BTW I don't think insulting religion or faith is necessary or should be tolerated on this board, along with politics. Most people like to judge yet never take the time to truely study and understand either.
 
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#98
there is no logic in arguing with religious extremists, or Lou Fanatics

Most of the observations, and woe's, are regarding the 3's, not the 2's. This year is really her development year into a more complete player, and she's doing that. And rather well right now. I think role in past offenses and injury dumb her development somewhat.

My comments have been more related to the blind devotion to the 3 point shooter the fan base loves. And the comments that elevate her into a position in the pantheon that a previous one trick pony didn't IMO earn. Comments putting her with Sue, Tina, etc are frankly just ridiculous. I never said she wasn't great, I never said she was undeserving. I only make the point that the "adoration" is in my view a bit overdone and misplaced.

Creating space for yourself:

Having the quickness to make a physical adjustment needed to clear space for your vision and release point of your shot.

The efficient physical use of body size and height to clear space.

Elevation of the release point.

Move into another space.

In short, with possession of the ball, to move in such a manner to create the space needed to execute a shot while closely guarded by a defender, without the reliance of a teammate to create that space for you.

Watch Asia, she can score 1 on 5. Anytime. Speed and Quickness.

Swoopes, Cheryl Miller, Diana--- create space -- or see space and just take it --- all by themselves

You can cherry pick all the individual games and plays you want, there are always exceptions to draw on.
Okay to start with I just want to say I agree with you that KLS does not belong not even in the top 12 without even thinking. And right now wherever we put Gabby and Collier I'd put them ahead of KLS. But ofc the season isn't over yet. With that said I think you've gone off the rails with your personal garbage for fellow UCONN fans love of KLS. Your talk about wishing they were her father is complete bush league garbage,

But back to hoop - if you think if KML can create more space than KLS -- in a meaningful way - I think you are way off base. I would wager that the number of times in KLS career she has scored more by low posting her player (getting fouled counts) than KML. Her long strides vs her opponent have allowed her more opportunities for lowpost. Though you could argue that it was probably a pick that then allowed her to low post. I dont think that can ever be proven unless you look at film for every game. Yet every game it's not a big deal to set a pick here or there so if it gets someone free.

ANd imo you are in denial by deliberately not counting the times KLS showed you she scored off the dribble or low posted vs the number of times KML. You call it cherry-pick-- I call it denial. For example I'm not sure DT ever low-posted much as a frosh of soph yet if someone were to say she can't lowpost and as a counter we'd say "just look at the finals vs Oklahoma. OFC she can." So one poster would say "you cherry-picked." While I would counter that they were "in denial."
 
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#99
Okay to start with I just want to say I agree with you that KLS does not belong not even in the top 12 without even thinking. And right now wherever we put Gabby and Collier I'd put them ahead of KLS. But ofc the season isn't over yet. With that said I think you've gone off the rails with your personal garbage for fellow UCONN fans love of KLS. Your talk about wishing they were her father is complete bush league garbage,

But back to hoop - if you think if KML can create more space than KLS -- in a meaningful way - I think you are way off base. I would wager that the number of times in KLS career she has scored more by low posting her player (getting fouled counts) than KML. Her long strides vs her opponent have allowed her more opportunities for lowpost. Though you could argue that it was probably a pick that then allowed her to low post. I dont think that can ever be proven unless you look at film for every game. Yet every game it's not a big deal to set a pick here or there so if it gets someone free.

ANd imo you are in denial by deliberately not counting the times KLS showed you she scored off the dribble or low posted vs the number of times KML. You call it cherry-pick-- I call it denial. For example I'm not sure DT ever low-posted much as a frosh of soph yet if someone were to say she can't lowpost and as a counter we'd say "just look at the finals vs Oklahoma. OFC she can." So one poster would say "you cherry-picked." While I would counter that they were "in denial."
I typed it I stand by it.
 
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First, I must admit I am biased for KLS and any unwarranted criticism thrown her way irritates me.
Second, after reviewing the ND last night (and even the Tex AM-Mizzou game) I saw Arike was 4-16 and 1-6 in 3 pters, so I decided to look up hers, Asia Durr’s and KLS stats for a quick compare.
Below is the standard list of stats and I would love to see the more advanced stats of player values others know better than I do to get a more informed perspective of these players.
Third, I hope to provoke a more rational evaluation by some of my peers in here as their”critical eye” that they like to use, is usually misinformed, wrong or just play ignorant.

You are best judged by those of which you compete. ND, Louisville and UConn are expected to be good year in year out so I thought this set of comparisons on position, stature on their team and in the national consciousness of WCBB was logical. As always I want to hear from you.

Here’s the chart with the leader in each category highlighted.

View attachment 39354
Great stuff! One has to consider the big picture when making comparisons and evaluations and your chart certainly does that. Too bad there is no quantification for leadership, effort and guts. Lou has no competition there. Lou is not selfish and would never quit or do something to hurt her team.
Regarding the ability to create your own shot, well, consider finding screens, curling off a pick and making cuts to the basket Lou's own shots! WBB especially, is a team game so why even weigh one-on-one?
To draw from another sport, who would you rather have, Tom Brady or Lamar Jackson?
 

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