Perspective on KLS vs. Asia and Arike

[Orangutan]

Heckuva rant.

I'll say it's because KLS, Arike, and Asia are perimeter players and Collier is a forward.

 

[bbballfan23]

Is this a reason to compare the second best UCONN player with Arike and Asia. Why not compare them with UCONN's best player, Collier?

I don’t think it was meant to say Lou is UConns best player, I think they were just comparing guards. I think everyone knows Collier is more of a POY candidate than Lou.

 

[Zanzman]

Because they can't bring themselves to do that. They just can't.

It's not fair, they probably know it, but they can't help it ---- the potion they're drinking is just too powerful

This is the daughter they all dreamed of having.

Same socio-ec background + highly skilled+ girl next door image + coached on her shot by her father !

Reason get tossed out the window --- then they band together in a club for unlimited confirmation bias.

It's more of a religion than fan base.

Omg I’m starting to agree with to many of your posts. .... I never thought that would happen

 

[DefenseBB]

Maybe Durr is more capable of creating her own shot

Maybe ??? Ya think ???

The claim that Durr is not a team player is ridiculous....she's their best option and has the ability to carry that team. The other 2 can't say that.

Luv KLS but she was the glorification of a role player her 1st 2 years, last year hurt, and this year is really her biggest jump in development. She can't just snipe uncontested from 3 and be considered POY material. I said before that as good as she is , she still has a rather high upside from here. Moreso than the other 2, but the rest of her game has to show.

But ya gotta be honest...she does not create her own space, and struggles with quality defensive pressure.

Durr gets her shots off every time.

Let me reclarify as I do think Asia is a team player and pretty astute/court savvy player/playmaker (she’s on the short list for team USA!). Katie Lou works hard on the spacing and is excellent inbounds playmaker, whereas Asia on that aspect is a play “receiver”. The inbound set play is an understated skill that we will miss the next year or so.
Where you are clearly mistaken is calling KLS a role player in year 2. She was co-AAC Player of the Year, 1st Team All-American, both of which she deserved. To say otherwise is either willful ignorance (which I don’t think is you) or a perceived bias.

KLS is not Maya, Diana or Stewie and should not be compared to those generational type players. She is though in the same class of player as Rizzotti, Wolters, Ralph, Bird, Charles, Jefferson and Lobo. All her won with other great players. She will be a 3 time AA so to call her a “role” player is a reach.

 

['nuff sed]

Let me reclarify as I do think Asia is a team player and pretty astute/court savvy player/playmaker (she’s on the short list for team USA!). Katie Lou works hard on the spacing and is excellent inbounds playmaker, whereas Asia on that aspect is a play “receiver”. The inbound set play is an understated skill that we will miss the next year or so.
Where you are clearly mistaken is calling KLS a role player in year 2. She was co-AAC Player of the Year, 1st Team All-American, both of which she deserved. To say otherwise is either willful ignorance (which I don’t think is you) or a perceived bias.

KLS is not Maya, Diana or Stewie and should not be compared to those generational type players. She is though in the same class of player as Rizzotti, Wolters, Ralph, Bird, Charles, Jefferson and Lobo. All her won with other great players. She will be a 3 time AA so to call her a “role” player is a reach.

Agree with the 2 points in the first paragraph —- and agree the collection of accolades and awards are well deserved.

But 1st 2 yrs and most of the 3rd her role was shooter—- and mostly defined as the 3 specialist. Not saying she couldn’t be more at times but that motion offense was designed to make it that way.

As for the rest of the rankings —- in 3’s she is not in the class of KML, who could make her own space.

She is not in the class of Sue, let alone Tina or Mo.

As for Rebecca - I no longer count her in lists - she has been elevated post career beyond lists.

 

[bballnut90]

Given the situation, the time of the game, and a taller defender on her (Pheesa) it was kind of a "miracle" shot. One of 2 that ESPN went stop showing... in the old days they were on tape and we could hope the tape would wear out.

Nothing about the shot vs UCONN was a miracle. The Shepard screen forced a switch which gave Arike a very favorable 1 on 1 matchup going against Collier rather than the much quicker Williams. Collier isnt suited to guard a quick 5-8 guard on the perimeter, and Arike's shake and bake put her in rhythm for a smooth jump shot. Great execution by ND and Ogunbowale, no luck involved. On the otherhand the Mississippi State shot was definitely a miracle.

 

[CajunHusky]

BY rips on Lou for 2 straight weeks but then she has a big game against ECU which was by far the worst team we’ve played this season & all of the sudden she should be POY over Durr

Can we just find a middle ground?? She’s a great player & has been great for our program. A deserving 2-time AA but not a NPOY candidate. I’d be happy with her winning FF MOP over anything else!

Frankly I think the top two NPOY candidates are Alanna Smith and Sabrina Ionescu. IVO her kicking, tripping, clotheslining not to mention her nasty mouth AO just ain't NPOY material.
Asia Durr will win ACC POY again this year. The only reason AO might be considered is for two shots in last year's FF.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

You are best judged by those of which you compete. ND, Louisville and UConn are expected to be good year in year out so I thought this set of comparisons on position, stature on their team and in the national consciousness of WCBB was logical. As always I want to hear from you.

Here’s the chart with the leader in each category highlighted.

View attachment 39354

@DefenseBB , first of all, thank you for putting this together. I do not presume to speak for the board, but in this case, I think I am safe in saying that we all appreciate your hard work.

My only issue is that the statistics in your chart tell games played and averages, but it does not measure out level of competition.

Using RealTimeRPI.com, here are certain RPI metrics for Notre Dame, Louisville, and UConn (with hyperlinks to each team's page on RealTimeRPI.com), as of Friday, February 8, 2019:

NOTRE DAME
10-3 against the RPI Top 50
5-1 against the RPI Top 20
2-1 against the RPI Top 10

LOUISVILLE
12-1 against the RPI Top 50
4-1 against the RPI Top 20
2-1 against the RPI Top 10

UCONN
5-2 against the RPI Top 50
2-2 against the RPI Top 20
1-2 against the RPI Top 10

The RPI ratings can be considered measures of the quality of the opposition, whereas using the total number of games in a season includes all teams (including any non-conference cupcakes and conference teams with lowly RPI rankings).

UConn is 13-0 against teams in the triple digits (ranked 100 or worse) in RPI, whereas Notre Dame is 6-0 and Louisville is 9-0 in such games.

It would be interesting to see the individual player statistics for Ogunbowale, Durr, and Samuelson for games against RPI Top 50, RPI Top 20, and RPI Top 10.

Of course, I am going to be the Boneyard visitor who mentions that this "would be interesting" while putting it out there for someone else to do the work. Is it any wonder why some on this board hate Duke? LOL!!!

@EricLA
@ucbart

 

[CajunHusky]

@DefenseBB , first of all, thank you for putting this together. I do not presume to speak for the board, but in this case, I think I am safe in saying that we all appreciate your hard work.

My only issue is that the statistics in your chart tell games played and averages, but it does not measure out level of competition.

Using RealTimeRPI.com, here are certain RPI metrics for Notre Dame, Louisville, and UConn (with hyperlinks to each team's page on RealTimeRPI.com), as of Friday, February 8, 2019:

NOTRE DAME
10-3 against the RPI Top 50
5-1 against the RPI Top 20
2-1 against the RPI Top 10

LOUISVILLE
12-1 against the RPI Top 50
4-1 against the RPI Top 20
2-1 against the RPI Top 10

UCONN
5-2 against the RPI Top 50
2-2 against the RPI Top 20
1-2 against the RPI Top 10

The RPI ratings can be considered measures of the quality of the opposition, whereas using the total number of games in a season includes all teams (including any non-conference cupcakes and conference teams with lowly RPI rankings).

UConn is 13-0 against teams in the triple digits (ranked 100 or worse) in RPI, whereas Notre Dame is 6-0 and Louisville is 9-0 in such games.

It would be interesting to see the individual player statistics for Ogunbowale, Durr, and Samuelson for games against RPI Top 50, RPI Top 20, and RPI Top 10.

Of course, I am going to be the Boneyard visitor who mentions that this "would be interesting" while putting it out there for someone else to do the work. Is it any wonder why some on this board hate Duke? LOL!!!

@EricLA
@ucbart

My college statistics professor introduced the subject with the statement that statistics are a wonderful thing.... you can use them to prove anything you wish to postulate (including that the most recent presidential inauguration was by far the largest ever).

 

[Centerstream]

I think an interesting stat that could be added to the chart is minutes played. I am guessing that they might be comparable but when Lou's high point game was in a game where she played just over half of the game, it just made me wonder. However, on the other hand, in games where she wasn't scoring, she could have been playing 30+ minutes.

 

[hoopsfan22]

I think KLS is going to be a little bit better version of KML at the next level. Any ideas where she gets drafted?

 

[CajunHusky]

I think KLS is going to be a little bit better version of KML at the next level. Any ideas where she gets drafted?

I've looked at that question just a bit and I just don't see a good fit on most teams. Lou has got a lot going for her other than the basketball. She is going to be hugely popular wherever she goes and that would make her attractive to the Sparks or the Sun. The Corporate sponsors are going to be falling all over themselves to sign her to promotional contracts. If I was her I would consider skipping the WNBA this summer, scoop up the sponsorships and play overseas before coming back to the WNBA. The Sparks may go for the hometown girl but I don't think she is a good fit there especially after they signed Sims. Maybe Chicago or Indiana but I don't like the chemistry at either. I think she would do best at Atlanta.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Arike won a national semi-final and championship last season with her clutch shooting. She can go 0 for whatever after that, and no one at UConn has that unique ability to do what Arike can.

Really? No one at UConn can make a shot when needed? I find that a ridiculous statement, particularly when Arike is hitting less than 30% of her 3-point shots. How long can Arike live on one game from last season?

 

['nuff sed]

I think KLS is going to be a little bit better version of KML at the next level. Any ideas where she gets drafted?

I think she has the potential to be a better pro than KML.

But her game, or more correctly what I think her game could be, still needs development, and the WNBA is not a development league.

 

['nuff sed]

Really? No one at UConn can make a shot when needed? I find that a ridiculous statement, particularly when Arike is hitting less than 30% of her 3-point shots. How long can Arike live one game from last season?

For Irish Eyes she’s immortal.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I think she has the potential to be a better pro than KML

That's setting the bar fairly low. KML's WNBA career has not been particularly successful.

 

[MilfordHusky]

I'll go back and read the arguments when I have a little more time, but I'm surprised that Lou--despite an obvious slump--is shooting the ball as accurately as Asia and Arike.

There is one obvious thing that I like about Lou as a player and prospective pro: She's 6'3". I think she has 4" or more on Asia and 7" or so on Arike. That's a huge help.

 

[Gus Mahler]

Not sure any of the metrics really support your hypothesis to be honest. Maybe Durr is more capable of creating her own shot or maybe Louisville runs more plays to get her shots. As far as defensively, we can agree Durr is slightly quicker but overall her defense is behind KLS, Steals are the same, KLS has more blocks and much more defensive rebounds.
Arike has one unique skill way above Asia or KLS and its her driving ability to get to the free throw line. She has another unique skill that shall go unmentioned by me.
Durr and KLS are close in skills with KLS having a tad higher acumen based on the fact she always takes the ball out of bounds on key plays to hit the right player and with lower turnovers than both Asia or Arike.
And remember, if you protest too much on this thread, you risk a cancellation of your UConn fandom!

I concede that I haven't seen Durr all that much; AO I've probably seen too much. To get to the point, Lou is a better passer than most of the top players in the country that I've seen. Instinctive and accurate. Sabrina I. might be her peer (or better?), but who else? [I'm not considering Crystal. Yet.]

 

[bballnut90]

I concede that I haven't seen Durr all that much; AO I've probably seen too much. To get to the point, Lou is a better passer than most of the top players in the country that I've seen. Instinctive and accurate. Sabrina I. might be her peer (or better?), but who else? [I'm not considering Crystal. Yet.]

KLS is a good passer for a wing and a smart player, but saying she's a peer to Sabrina Ionescu is just flat out wrong. Sabrina Ionescu is far out of KLS's league when it comes to passing. Not a good comparison.

 

[Gus Mahler]

KLS is a good passer for a wing and a smart player, but saying she's a peer to Sabrina Ionescu is just flat out wrong. Sabrina Ionescu is far out of KLS's league when it comes to passing. Not a good comparison.

OK. Who else comes to mind?

 

[DefenseBB]

@DefenseBB , first of all, thank you for putting this together. I do not presume to speak for the board, but in this case, I think I am safe in saying that we all appreciate your hard work.

My only issue is that the statistics in your chart tell games played and averages, but it does not measure out level of competition.

Using RealTimeRPI.com, here are certain RPI metrics for Notre Dame, Louisville, and UConn (with hyperlinks to each team's page on RealTimeRPI.com), as of Friday, February 8, 2019:

NOTRE DAME
10-3 against the RPI Top 50
5-1 against the RPI Top 20
2-1 against the RPI Top 10

LOUISVILLE
12-1 against the RPI Top 50
4-1 against the RPI Top 20
2-1 against the RPI Top 10

UCONN
5-2 against the RPI Top 50
2-2 against the RPI Top 20
1-2 against the RPI Top 10

The RPI ratings can be considered measures of the quality of the opposition, whereas using the total number of games in a season includes all teams (including any non-conference cupcakes and conference teams with lowly RPI rankings).

UConn is 13-0 against teams in the triple digits (ranked 100 or worse) in RPI, whereas Notre Dame is 6-0 and Louisville is 9-0 in such games.

It would be interesting to see the individual player statistics for Ogunbowale, Durr, and Samuelson for games against RPI Top 50, RPI Top 20, and RPI Top 10.

Of course, I am going to be the Boneyard visitor who mentions that this "would be interesting" while putting it out there for someone else to do the work. Is it any wonder why some on this board hate Duke? LOL!!!

@EricLA
@ucbart

Thanks Cam, I actually started to do the their stats against Top 25 competition but I had to do my “day job”, that cursed thing always gets in the way!
I mentioned that if other peers have access to other metric rankings ( @Dillon77 @Orangutan did something last year when comparing Arike and Asia but I could not remember what it was).
THe intersting perspective for me is that on paper, Arike has much better teammate than either KLS or Asia and then KLS has two better running mates than Asia.

It’s clear Arike is having a down year from last year however ever so slightly (big drop in 3 pt percentage) and Asia is playing very well, with my main point is members on here lose perspective on how relatively great KLS is by showing other known great players stats.

And yes, typical Duke arrogance in thinking other people should do work for their enjoyment...

 

[bballnut90]

Young and Mabrey for starters. Heck, Arike has her selfish streaks but she's actually a pretty strong passer as well when she prioritizes looking for her teammates.

There isn't anything particularly unique about KLS's passing ability that I've noticed other than that she looks for open teammates/cutters and overall does a good job of executing plays in a passing oriented offense. She isn't creating shots for teammates like Ionescu does.

 

[hoopsfan22]

Really? No one at UConn can make a shot when needed? I find that a ridiculous statement, particularly when Arike is hitting less than 30% of her 3-point shots. How long can Arike live one game from last season?

Please list the UConn players in the last ten years that made a shot that won a national semi-final or championship the way Arike did. We will wait for your response.

 

[ME Husky Fan]

To stray from the offensive stats for a moment, I'll take Durr and KLS over Arike any day because they play defense. Arike picks and chooses when and if she wants to play D, which would never work with Geno. It might not have the impact as the offensive stats being discussed here but to me they're part of the whole.

 

[Los24]

So here is Lou's highlights from last year, the year she led the nation in 3pt fg%. Didn't contain one 3pt shot for those putting her in box. Observe her passing along when she has timely passes to her when she cuts (many from Gabby.)



Compared to freshman year:
Katie Lou Samuelson

Not playing this year like a NPOY, but still a lot of improvement in overall game and when the shots start falling believe she is AA.

 

[Dokey]

First, I must admit I am biased for KLS and any unwarranted criticism thrown her way irritates me.
Second, after reviewing the ND last night (and even the Tex AM-Mizzou game) I saw Arike was 4-16 and 1-6 in 3 pters, so I decided to look up hers, Asia Durr’s and KLS stats for a quick compare.
Below is the standard list of stats and I would love to see the more advanced stats of player values others know better than I do to get a more informed perspective of these players.
Third, I hope to provoke a more rational evaluation by some of my peers in here as their”critical eye” that they like to use, is usually misinformed, wrong or just play ignorant.

You are best judged by those of which you compete. ND, Louisville and UConn are expected to be good year in year out so I thought this set of comparisons on position, stature on their team and in the national consciousness of WCBB was logical. As always I want to hear from you.

Here’s the chart with the leader in each category highlighted.

View attachment 39354

Glad to see this. Asia struck me as primarily a shooter, KLS more an all round player. Why not highlight rebounds? Plus Lou seems to run team. Down the road I see her returning to UConn as head coach.

 

[Dokey]

Durr is the clear favorite this year among Lou & Arike when talking about POY. Yes, Lou’s numbers are comparable but let’s face the facts, she feasts against lesser competition with leak out layups. She hasn’t shown up in any big game this year from a NPOY standard. She can possibly play her way back into All-American status but still has work to do. She’s more than capable of that.

All 3 leave a lot to be desired from a defensive standpoint. Durr is the best on-ball defender of all 3 but that’s not saying much.

Actually, Lou is a far better defender, especially of late. She's extremely disruptive snd forces turnovers. Durr is a good shooter but I don't notice her much when she's on the floor and wouldn't make my top 10 for POY.

 

[npignatjr]

So here is Lou's highlights from last year, the year she led the nation in 3pt fg%. Didn't contain one 3pt shot for those putting her in box. Observe her passing along when she has timely passes to her when she cuts (many from Gabby.)



Compared to freshman year:
Katie Lou Samuelson

Not playing this year like a NPOY, but still a lot of improvement in overall game and when the shots start falling believe she is AA.

Very good. Shows this year not a good into the post passing team. Lou is good but when she posts up lacking

 

[CajunHusky]

Please list the UConn players in the last ten years that made a shot that won a national semi-final or championship the way Arike did. We will wait for your response.

you forgot while spinning twice and reciting Row Row Row your boat

 

[Waquoit]

First, I must admit I am biased for KLS and any unwarranted criticism thrown her way irritates me.

True AO did make 2 miracle shots, LAST year... but that was then. She stunk up the gym in Miami last night, and other games this year.. and her stats this year are not good compared to NPOY standards.

I would like a little rules clarification here. Are we allowed to criticize UConn players or not? I see it's clearly fair game to go after other players.