Parker off Olympic team? | Page 9 | The Boneyard

Parker off Olympic team?

Status
Not open for further replies.
"To that end, some will see this as evidence that USA Basketball has turned into Club UConn in the past eight years with Huskies coach Geno Auriemma guiding the senior national team. And that Tennessee grad Parker was outside of that clique, and thus deemed more expendable."

Wow! Sure sound like (Anti-Geno) comments to me by this writer. She had to go there huh.

Nevertheless, I can't help but to be baffled why Parker was dropped.
 
UConnCat said:
You're probably too young to remember that Diana Taurasi made the Olympic team in 2004 right out of college. Candace Parker made the World Championship team in 2006 while still in college. Parker made the Olympic team in 2008 right out of college. Maya Moore made the 2010 World Championship team while still in college. Each of those transcendent college players made Team USA over experienced pros without having played professionally themselves. Thus, there is precedent for what USA BB is doing with Stewart who accomplished more than those other players in college.
Expand ...

Wow. Great post. Yet some would argue "but why still leave Parker off" who could of participated along with Stewie?

Nevertheless, great post and many nice points made in your statement.
 
HuskyNan said:
It's a shame some think this is a Stewie vs Candace issue.
Expand ...

Agreed.

But if the 12th spot did come down to Parker and Stewart - which I highly doubt it did - it has to be Parker. (And I think Stewie is, and will be, monumental for WBB).
 
I still fail to understand if there is no apparent understudy for Sue, why there is no desire to (at least) invite Moriah to practices.

Or is there a perceived larger chasm between her talent and abilities compared with Stewie than one suspects.
 
.-.
Orangutan said:
I was responding to a post saying Bird is better than the other options at point guard. I do not believe that Bird is a better basketball player than Vandersloot or Diggins at this point in time. All of those players play in the WNBA and thus I believe that WNBA stats are a valid basis for comparison.

I concede that there may be valid reasons for taking Bird besides simply who is better at basketball today in the abstract. The problem with the "handle the pressure" argument is that it is self-justifying. You are never going to fully trust a player to handle the pressure that comes with playing the Olympics until see them do it. But they can't do it until you actually pick them for the Olympics or a similar major tournament.

I'm a Sky and ND homer, hence arguing for Diggins and Sloot. I never seriously expected either would make it. But I do think each has a legitimate claim that they belong on the team if it were simply based on merit in the present day. Experience and loyalty obviously matters to USAB, though.
Expand ...

I will note that many complained bitterly when Katie Smith made the team in 2008 saying she wasn't any good anymore. I'm pretty sure she ended up starting.
 
HuskyNan said:
It's a shame some think this is a Stewie vs Candace issue.
Expand ...
Spot on. My earlier comment concerning Thompson's coaching "wins", was meant to reflect on the "chemistry" issue. As Geno's mentioned, when providing a pre-season preview of his UCONN team's likelihood of success, its about how well the soup's ingredients blend together when cooked. Great players don't always make great teammates, and some "blend" better than others. The Committee had a job to do, and did what they thought best. With their experience, judgment, and analysis of these athletes competing against one another on numerous occasions, my guess is, they've got more information to go on than the cheap seats.
 
Orangutan said:
I was responding to a post saying Bird is better than the other options at point guard. I do not believe that Bird is a better basketball player than Vandersloot or Diggins at this point in time. All of those players play in the WNBA and thus I believe that WNBA stats are a valid basis for comparison.

I concede that there may be valid reasons for taking Bird besides simply who is better at basketball today in the abstract. The problem with the "handle the pressure" argument is that it is self-justifying. You are never going to fully trust a player to handle the pressure that comes with playing the Olympics until see them do it. But they can't do it until you actually pick them for the Olympics or a similar major tournament.

I'm a Sky and ND homer, hence arguing for Diggins and Sloot. I never seriously expected either would make it. But I do think each has a legitimate claim that they belong on the team if it were simply based on merit in the present day. Experience and loyalty obviously matters to USAB, though.
Expand ...

Ohhhh - you're the one that I argued with regarding you feel that even over time that EDD will be just as good at guarding 3's as Stewart? No wonder why you've been pushing sloot.

SO on it team -- in 2014 because we get ONE PLAYER that you question from UCONN shouldn't have made it - Bird -- whom you readily admit you understand why she's on. You understand why the went with Stewart. You acknowledge they went with experience. And do you acknowledge UCONN has been the most dominant wcbb team since 2002? So with all this - you think there is a UCONN bias? All because of Sue Bird?

For rivals how many would you consider UCONN has had? Just the two? ND and Tenn? So why Catchings on if he is against putting on rivals? Maybe you are right about Parker. Would like to hear why she didn't make it. I'm on board trying to understand why no Parker. She should have been on. imo unless there is some very unusual circumstance.

There is just ONE player in your dispute with on the prior UCONN teams that is now on the Olympcis and you single out UCONN getting the nod when the one player is so experienced just like Cacthings. Just like Whelan. Just Like Angel. Just like Augustus. And one of your points that bothers you is something a kid would say to USA BB "You promised you would bring in a younger guard. You promised. You promised. You promised." Ughhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
HuskyNan said:
It's a shame some think this is a Stewie vs Candace issue.
Expand ...

True, it probably didn't come down to Stewie vs Candace, but Stewie's inclusion is more pronounced when arguably one of the best players in the world (and perhaps the very best on a given day) is excluded. Yes, Bird, Taurasi, Parker, etc. have all made senior teams at similar points in their career to Stewart, but never at the cost of someone at Parker's level.

Let's put this another way. Assuming USA basketball assumes Griner and Fowles are the centers (although Charles is capable of sliding over). And EDD/Charles/Stewart are the 4's (although both EDD and Stewart have the flexibility to play the 3). Was Charles chosen instead of Parker? And if Charles had been left off instead of Parker, certainly it would have been very noticeable, but while most people think Charles is a great player, she is not put in the same category as Moore/Parker/EDD/Taurasi.
 
Someone may have mentioned this previously, but remember that Isaiah Thomas was left off of the 1992 Dream Team because Michael Jordan (and others) didn't want to play with him. They could have left off a very injured Larry Bird or the young Christian Laettner and taken Thomas instead, but didn't. I'm not saying that people don't like Candace Parker, but we just don't always know the full story.
 
.-.
GiladKatzDeli said:
Someone may have mentioned this previously, but remember that Isaiah Thomas was left off of the 1992 Dream Team because Michael Jordan (and others) didn't want to play with him. They could have left off a very injured Larry Bird or the young Christian Laettner and taken Thomas instead, but didn't. I'm not saying that people don't like Candace Parker, but we just don't always know the full story.
Expand ...
That's why we don't speculate here especially when the speculation is derogatory in nature, such as suggesting the players don't want to play with someone.
 
bbsamjj said:
True, it probably didn't come down to Stewie vs Candace, but Stewie's inclusion is more pronounced when arguably one of the best players in the world (and perhaps the very best on a given day) is excluded. Yes, Bird, Taurasi, Parker, etc. have all made senior teams at similar points in their career to Stewart, but never at the cost of someone at Parker's level.

Let's put this another way. Assuming USA basketball assumes Griner and Fowles are the centers (although Charles is capable of sliding over). And EDD/Charles/Stewart are the 4's (although both EDD and Stewart have the flexibility to play the 3). Was Charles chosen instead of Parker? And if Charles had been left off instead of Parker, certainly it would have been very noticeable, but while most people think Charles is a great player, she is not put in the same category as Moore/Parker/EDD/Taurasi.
Expand ...
Thanks for starting this aspect. I would disagree slightly as follows:
Centers: Griner, Fowles - (insurance is Charles)
Forwards: Charles, Catchings, Stewart (insurance EDD and Moore)
Wings: Moore, Augustus, EDD (insurance Stewart, McCoughtry)
Guards: Bird, Whalen, Taurasi, McCoughtry (insurance Moore, Augustus)

Specific to you question re Charles - she is there because she has the ability to slide over to center and is the only player on the team that provides that insurance.

My firm belief is that the choice came down to Catchings or Parker, and the decision was based on loyalty to a player who has not missed a competition since she came into the team in 2002 nor a USA assignment since 1996 and is in her last professional basketball season (9 in total - 6 NT and 3 age specific) Parker while obviously younger has only played on three USA teams at all levels (2 out of 4 NT and 1 age specific) for whatever reasons.
 
On the guard discussion -
Diggins professional choice to forgo international play is I think a mistake in terms of her preparedness for USA basketball. The NT competes internationally and familiarity with rules and opponents is one of the byproducts of playing overseas. The other byproduct is the flexibility developed to integrate into disparate teams quickly. The WNBA is clearly the strongest competition, but it is also the shortest competition and the rules and officiating are significantly different than they are in the other leagues around the world. I am sure she works out and works on specific aspects of her game in the off season, but she isn't playing team ball and learning to adapt to different officials or to adapt her game to different teammates strengths and weaknesses. While she is working out in a gym for 8 months, her competition for the national team is playing 6+/- months of competitive basketball. I understand she has lots of other interests in life, but purely from a USA basketball perspective, it is not the best preparation. The last time she played an international competition was 6 years ago at the university games an age specific event. (I am discounting the 3x3 event 5 years ago as while it is a form of basketball it has little to do with the 5x5 game.) [Food for thought: I am not sure there has ever been a pro player selected to the NT team who has never played for an international team at least some of their career]

Sims on the other hand has chosen to play overseas and I think that choice gives her a leg up in the next cycle. Her injury as well as Diggins' I think sealed their being left off this team whether they had a realistic shot or not - the choice was being made in Feb and neither were able to take the floor - for a player with a solid track record with the team that might not have been important, for a young player yet to establish themselves I think it was critical.
The two young guards that I though might have a chance were Robinson (since injured and out) and Vandersloot. But I will take former USA PG and current coach Dawn Staley's word for it - neither were yet ready. And I'll come back to another thing - USA (as does most of the world) take the Olympics much more seriously than the WCs. There was one slot for a 'rookie' on the twelve man roster and Stewart was not competing with Parker, she was competing with a possible guard/wing, and in that competition she won hands down regardless of the need to find a new guard. Stewart will absolutely be on future NT teams (health permitting) and none of the new guard/wings in consideration can be identified as locks for the next team.
 
Milfo, Cat, and several others are correct when they quote Dawn and Geno, and mention that running team USA is far different than running a WNBA team. The biggest key is that team USA PG's need to understand that they ARE the last option in scoring. Their job is to run the team, get all their teammates involved, and help them score as many points as possible.

Anyone who points to WNBA stats of PPG is completely missing the point of what makes a great Team USA PG. And Ken is right - the next great USA PG is probably Moriah Jefferson - not because she's a UCONN player and we are homers, but because her main focus has always been making those around her better by getting them the ball in positions where they can score. No one is better at that than Sue and Dee, but it's called TEAM USA for a reason. It's all about the team...
 
UcMiami I totally get the point you're making with Charles. Although I think Catchings is more of a wing than a forward (she's a very small PF) and I think Augustus is more a wing and McCoughtry is more of a guard, but you do illuminate something here:

The only pure, back to the basket 4 on the roster is Charles. While Parker certainly is versatile, she is much more of a classic back to the basket 4 than EDD/Catchings/Stewart. That matters less in international ball, but Griner/Fowles/Charles are the only players on the roster who spend a significant amount of their time in the post.


UcMiami said:
Thanks for starting this aspect. I would disagree slightly as follows:
Centers: Griner, Fowles - (insurance is Charles)
Forwards: Charles, Catchings, Stewart (insurance EDD and Moore)
Wings: Moore, Augustus, EDD (insurance Stewart, McCoughtry)
Guards: Bird, Whalen, Taurasi, McCoughtry (insurance Moore, Augustus)

Specific to you question re Charles - she is there because she has the ability to slide over to center and is the only player on the team that provides that insurance.

My firm belief is that the choice came down to Catchings or Parker, and the decision was based on loyalty to a player who has not missed a competition since she came into the team in 2002 nor a USA assignment since 1996 and is in her last professional basketball season (9 in total - 6 NT and 3 age specific) Parker while obviously younger has only played on three USA teams at all levels (2 out of 4 NT and 1 age specific) for whatever reasons.
Expand ...
 
UcMiami said:
On the guard discussion -
Diggins professional choice to forgo international play is I think a mistake in terms of her preparedness for USA basketball. The NT competes internationally and familiarity with rules and opponents is one of the byproducts of playing overseas. The other byproduct is the flexibility developed to integrate into disparate teams quickly. The WNBA is clearly the strongest competition, but it is also the shortest competition and the rules and officiating are significantly different than they are in the other leagues around the world. I am sure she works out and works on specific aspects of her game in the off season, but she isn't playing team ball and learning to adapt to different officials or to adapt her game to different teammates strengths and weaknesses. While she is working out in a gym for 8 months, her competition for the national team is playing 6+/- months of competitive basketball. I understand she has lots of other interests in life, but purely from a USA basketball perspective, it is not the best preparation. The last time she played an international competition was 6 years ago at the university games an age specific event. (I am discounting the 3x3 event 5 years ago as while it is a form of basketball it has little to do with the 5x5 game.) [Food for thought: I am not sure there has ever been a pro player selected to the NT team who has never played for an international team at least some of their career]

Sims on the other hand has chosen to play overseas and I think that choice gives her a leg up in the next cycle. Her injury as well as Diggins' I think sealed their being left off this team whether they had a realistic shot or not - the choice was being made in Feb and neither were able to take the floor - for a player with a solid track record with the team that might not have been important, for a young player yet to establish themselves I think it was critical.
The two young guards that I though might have a chance were Robinson (since injured and out) and Vandersloot. But I will take former USA PG and current coach Dawn Staley's word for it - neither were yet ready. And I'll come back to another thing - USA (as does most of the world) take the Olympics much more seriously than the WCs. There was one slot for a 'rookie' on the twelve man roster and Stewart was not competing with Parker, she was competing with a possible guard/wing, and in that competition she won hands down regardless of the need to find a new guard. Stewart will absolutely be on future NT teams (health permitting) and none of the new guard/wings in consideration can be identified as locks for the next team.
Expand ...

Looks like I picked an interesting night (last night) to see a movie with my wife....

I've previously posted that I could see why Diggins was not selected in this year's process and the reason is very similar to what you just posted...Sky is still rehabbing and given her lack of experience at this level, it just didn't seem to be right time/right place.

In a (much) earlier post, I also brought up that Geno said it was important to bring in younger players to join the fray and work with possible peers down the road. That quote stuck me as prescient, given today's announcement and comments by people like Dawn Staley. However, I also remember DT -- who is known for saying what's on her mind -- saying she was impressed with the development of newer guards and specifically remember her bringing up Kayla McBride, Sky and Jewell (among others, such as Sloot, I believe).

Obviously DT is not on the selection committee (maybe a few years down the road) but I trust her judgement in what constitutes talent. Plus, in my humble opinion as a former coach, player and observer, all these women can play. Interestingly, my contention all year was that if there was any former ND guard who I thought was ready for prime time, it was K-Mac, as her overseas and WNBA play has proven. She is one tough package who could've helped this year, let alone soon. However, knowing K-Mac, she'll come back for the next round of tryouts firing on all cylinders.

As Orangutan pointed out, Sloot is going to be pushing up in years next go-round and I fear her chance was now. But I sincerely hope Geno's comments from February and DT's observations and opinions allow some of these players (those mentioned and others like MoJeff) -- circumstances and health notwithstanding -- to get their chances for national team duty/play.

That said, here's a post-script to the guard talk: Parker should be on this team. Why? She does things that other players simply can't because of her unique talents and/or skills, whether it's scoring, facilitating, rebounding and/or just being in the right place at the right time. She gets it! . That's a good...no, very good...thing to have on any team when you're up against it. That's it, save for Go U.S.
 
.-.
bbsamjj said:
UcMiami I totally get the point you're making with Charles. Although I think Catchings is more of a wing than a forward (she's a very small PF) and I think Augustus is more a wing and McCoughtry is more of a guard, but you do illuminate something here:

The only pure, back to the basket 4 on the roster is Charles. While Parker certainly is versatile, she is much more of a classic back to the basket 4 than EDD/Catchings/Stewart. That matters less in international ball, but Griner/Fowles/Charles are the only players on the roster who spend a significant amount of their time in the post.
Expand ...
I agree about Catch being a 'small' forward but the reason Parker ended up coming off the bench in the previous Olympics was that she and Catchings where playing in the same zone and performing the same role within the team and playing them together was not working.

And I wouldn't say Candace plays 'back to the basket' primarily, nor does Charles when she plays as a four. But what Charles provides that Candace doesn't is the ability to comfortably shift into the 5 position against a Cambage type of center especially on defense - she has the strength and bulk to defend against 22o lb post players that Candace just doesn't possess - no knock on Candace but she is giving up almost 50 pounds of muscle - it is not dissimilar to the different defensive assignments you saw with Stewart and Tuck the past two years - with all Stewart's length, Tuck was still a better low post defender against strong back to the basket centers because she had better bulk and strength to move them from the spots they wanted to be.
 
hoophuskee said:
Ohhhh - you're the one that I argued with regarding you feel that even over time that EDD will be just as good at guarding 3's as Stewart? No wonder why you've been pushing sloot.

SO on it team -- in 2014 because we get ONE PLAYER that you question from UCONN shouldn't have made it - Bird -- whom you readily admit you understand why she's on. You understand why the went with Stewart. You acknowledge they went with experience. And do you acknowledge UCONN has been the most dominant wcbb team since 2002? So with all this - you think there is a UCONN bias? All because of Sue Bird?

For rivals how many would you consider UCONN has had? Just the two? ND and Tenn? So why Catchings on if he is against putting on rivals? Maybe you are right about Parker. Would like to hear why she didn't make it. I'm on board trying to understand why no Parker. She should have been on. imo unless there is some very unusual circumstance.

There is just ONE player in your dispute with on the prior UCONN teams that is now on the Olympcis and you single out UCONN getting the nod when the one player is so experienced just like Cacthings. Just like Whelan. Just Like Angel. Just like Augustus. And one of your points that bothers you is something a kid would say to USA BB "You promised you would bring in a younger guard. You promised. You promised. You promised." Ughhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!
Expand ...

Hmm...I don't recall that discussion about Stewart and EDD. But maybe it happened. I don't think I'd argue that now.

Look, you're right the conspiracy theory isn't airtight. That's because I don't think it's true. I guess what it comes down to is this: Candace Parker, two-time MVP in her prime, healthy, rested, and willing was not selected. Would this have happened to a UConn alum of comparable accomplishment? I really don't think so and I don't think I'm alone on that.

*Before the Mods smite me* - We're pretty much all on the same team here, the vast majority of posters in this thread are a) UConn fans and b) puzzled that Parker was left out.

I regret bringing the Notre Dame stuff and the idea of bringing on new guards into it - not because I don't stand by what I said, but it's not the right discussion for this thread.
 
HuskyNan said:
It's a shame some think this is a Stewie vs Candace issue.
Expand ...

Agree. This is a Candace Parker issue. There has to be a reason why one of the top players in the country was not selected and it ain't because she dunked on UConn.

It seems that Parker was given a courtesy notification by team USA before the selection list was released to the public. I'll assume that the others not selected received the same notification. As far as I know, she was the only one to jump the gun and leak the info. What was her motive? I have my opinion and if I'm correct it may be a clue to why she didn't make the team.
 
vtcwbuff said:
Agree. This is a Candace Parker issue. There has to be a reason why one of the top players in the country was not selected and it ain't because she dunked on UConn.

It seems that Parker was given a courtesy notification by team USA before the selection list was released to the public. I'll assume that the others not selected received the same notification. As far as I know, she was the only one to jump the gun and leak the info. What was her motive? I have my opinion and if I'm correct it may be a clue to why she didn't make the team.
Expand ...

Do you know for a fact that she leaked the information? Would it matter if the others did? Parker not being on the team is the real news.
 
bbsamjj said:
True, it probably didn't come down to Stewie vs Candace, but Stewie's inclusion is more pronounced when arguably one of the best players in the world (and perhaps the very best on a given day) is excluded. Yes, Bird, Taurasi, Parker, etc. have all made senior teams at similar points in their career to Stewart, but never at the cost of someone at Parker's level.

Let's put this another way. Assuming USA basketball assumes Griner and Fowles are the centers (although Charles is capable of sliding over). And EDD/Charles/Stewart are the 4's (although both EDD and Stewart have the flexibility to play the 3). Was Charles chosen instead of Parker? And if Charles had been left off instead of Parker, certainly it would have been very noticeable, but while most people think Charles is a great player, she is not put in the same category as Moore/Parker/EDD/Taurasi.
Expand ...

Great point! I love Charles but in my opinion. I thought Parker (F/C) over Fowles or Charles would have made more sense.
 
msf22b said:
Give me a break.
Expand ...

Seriously, you don't think Fowles is one of best athletes on the team? IMO she is a better athlete than any of the post players and most of the guards. You must be thinking about the Fowles that was playing injured, not the Fowles at her peak physical well being.
 
.-.
Orangutan said:
*Before the Mods smite me* - We're pretty much all on the same team here, the vast majority of posters in this thread are a) UConn fans and b) puzzled that Parker was left out.

I regret bringing the Notre Dame stuff and the idea of bringing on new guards into it - not because I don't stand by what I said, but it's not the right discussion for this thread.
Expand ...
Why would that happen? You've presented your views politely and without resorting to insulting any UConn players or fans. You are most welcome here.
 
Jackalope said:
FWIW , Stewie has been a loyal, consistent, and star player for USAA basketball since she was 14. USAA Basketball tends to reward loyalty, in part to encourage future younger players to participate. No one should be surprised that she made the team, and deservedly so! Even if it is seemingly at the expense of other players.

Notice that one of the reasons she was left off the team is "chemistry". There has not been a lot of time for the team to practice, so they will be more likely to look for player combinations that work well with one another. If Geno holds to USAA basketball form, he will have two 5 person line-ups that have a lot of familiarity with each other and shuttle them in and out like a hockey line change. The remaining two players fill in on one of these lines on an as needed basis, generally as a defensive or offensive spark plug. My guess for the two 5 person lines are:

DT, Bird, Charles, Maya, and Griner with the second line-up as:
Whalen, Simone, Elena, Catch, and Fowles

with Angel and Stewie filling in as needed.

As great a player Candace Parker is, she doesn't quite fit in either of the two line-ups (except possibly as a replacement for Catch) and might be dissatisfied with being one of the last two off the bench.
Expand ...

You could put Parker into either of those lineups and she would be a perfect fit. The great thing about Parker is her flexibility to play so many positions so to say that she wouldn't "fit" into a lineup is absurd.

Stewart is a great talent and will be one of the best in the world after a season or two in the WNBA, but hasn't proven anything against the elite players of the world and Parker has. The main reason that Bird is still on the team is that she has the experience with the National team, yet the same respect is not being given to Parker's experience in international play against the best that the rest of the world has to offer.
 
HuskyNan said:
Why would that happen? You've presented your views politely and without resorting to insulting any UConn players or fans. You are most welcome here.
Expand ...

I just didn't want to be accused of starting a UConn v. Tennessee war! That's all. (and I was being a little melodramatic to add force to my disclaimer)
 
Dillon77 - agree about Kayla but I actually see her replacing Augustus in the next team. She reminds me a lot of her though I think kayla might be more versatile though perhaps not as dominant a scorer.

I think Sims and Loyd may be competing for the DT type of role as playmaking 2 guards - expected to score a lot while also creating for others.

Sloot is still only 27 so could well have a 4-6 year run starting after this Olympics and might well end up as a transitional player if no one else steps up.

I think the 2018 WC may well be a huge transition - Catchings and Bird gone, and certainly questions about DT, Whalen, Augustus, McCoughtry, and Fowles that I think if still there in 2018 will certainly not make the 2020 Olympic team - that is at least seven openings off of this team - five new guard/wings a center and a forward.
 
Orangutan said:
I just didn't want to be accused of starting a UConn v. Tennessee war! That's all. (and I was being a little melodramatic to add force to my disclaimer)
Expand ...

Since we're all primarily in violent agreement on Ms. Parker, I found the guard discussion pertinent to the overall discussion since the whole roster has been discussed, parsed and dissected. I'm sure it will get its own post many times in the future. Gosh knows it's distracted me from my summary update on business "frenemies." (on the other hand, there might be an example here...:confused:;))
 
.-.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,389
Messages
4,570,231
Members
10,475
Latest member
Tunwin22


Top Bottom