Package Deals of the Past, and Results.

[Kibitzer]

The recent UNC flurry of several wcbb almost simultaneous oral commitments stimulated my not always reliable memory about package deals of the past, and what came of them. Fellow posters, feel free to correct any factual errors or to disagree with any views I express.

Many years ago, the two great LA Dodger pitchers (Don Drysdale and the inimitable Sandy Koufax) said neither would sign unless the other did. I think the price tag was $100,000 for Drysdale and $125,000 for Koufax. The Dodgers figured out how to get this done.

There was Michigan's "Fab Five," a highly talented group of freshmen who all enrolled at Michigan at once with the intention of winning NCAA championships. Sound familiar? I can remember only four tidbits about the original Fab Five.

• Chris Webber called time out when he had no time outs in a very big game;
• Galen Rose seemed to play forever in the NBA for many different teams;
• They never did win an NCAA championship; and,
• They left behind some NCAA violations that Michigan had to deal with.

Here at UConn, there was the TASSK force (Tamika, Ashja, Sue, Swin, and Keirsten Walters). I don't recall that they were a package, but I think Keirsten (apologies if I am misspelling her name) was energetic in persuading the others to join her at UConn. We know the results: championships, glory, greatness, except for Keirsten whose very promising career was tragically ended by multiple knee surgeries.

On a lesser scale there were the Waner sisters. Abby (excellent player, talkative analyst and now an assistant coach) was intensely recruited. Her older sister (Emily?) was enrolled in Colorado somewhere. She couldn't play a lick, but Abby apparently persuaded Gail Goestenkors that she (Abby) was so good that GG would take her sister in a transfer to close the deal for both. Abby had a good career, both sisters got a Duke education free, and Emily packed it in.

Last year, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Both (and their agents) all went to the Miami Heat to win an NBA championship. I think we all know how that has worked out so far.

Which brings us up to the present.

The irresistible conclusion is that James, Wade and Bosh may (MAY!) have inspired participants in the UNC situation and the names of Diamond DeShields and Stafford Odom seem to pop up most often. Their roles (and, surely, that of Coach Hatchell) will surface with precision over time as the sequence of events is studied as intently as the JFK assassination or the raid to kill Bin Laden.

I do not see that any of the recruits who gave oral commitments did anything wrong, legally or morally. Clearly, UNC has over-recruited and they will have to deal with that somehow. It is far too early to tell whether this Fab Five will win anything, or even if they will stick together as attrition takes its inevitable toll.

And if UConn plays UNC again, I like our chances.

 

[Sonny44]

The recent UNC flurry of several wcbb almost simultaneous oral commitments stimulated my not always reliable memory about package deals of the past, and what came of them. Fellow posters, feel free to correct any factual errors or to disagree with any views I express.

Many years ago, the two great LA Dodger pitchers (Don Drysdale and the inimitable Sandy Koufax) said neither would sign unless the other did. I think the price tag was $100,000 for Drysdale and $125,000 for Koufax. The Dodgers figured out how to get this done.

There was Michigan's "Fab Five," a highly talented group of freshmen who all enrolled at Michigan at once with the intention of winning NCAA championships. Sound familiar? I can remember only four tidbits about the original Fab Five.

• Chris Webber called time out when he had no time outs in a very big game;
• Galen Rose seemed to play forever in the NBA for many different teams;
• They never did win an NCAA championship; and,
• They left behind some NCAA violations that Michigan had to deal with.

Here at UConn, there was the TASSK force (Tamika, Ashja, Sue, Swin, and Keirsten Walters). I don't recall that they were a package, but I think Keirsten (apologies if I am misspelling her name) was energetic in persuading the others to join her at UConn. We know the results: championships, glory, greatness, except for Keirsten whose very promising career was tragically ended by multiple knee surgeries.


On a lesser scale there were the Waner sisters. Abby (excellent player, talkative analyst and now an assistant coach) was intensely recruited. Her older sister (Emily?) was enrolled in Colorado somewhere. She couldn't play a lick, but Abby apparently persuaded Gail Goestenkors that she (Abby) was so good that GG would take her sister in a transfer to close the deal for both. Abby had a good career, both sisters got a Duke education free, and Emily packed it in.

Last year, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Both (and their agents) all went to the Miami Heat to win an NBA championship. I think we all know how that has worked out so far.

Which brings us up to the present.

The irresistible conclusion is that James, Wade and Bosh may (MAY!) have inspired participants in the UNC situation and the names of Diamond DeShields and Stafford Odom seem to pop up most often. Their roles (and, surely, that of Coach Hatchell) will surface with precision over time as the sequence of events is studied as intently as the JFK assassination or the raid to kill Bin Laden.

I do not see that any of the recruits who gave oral commitments did anything wrong, legally or morally. Clearly, UNC has over-recruited and they will have to deal with that somehow. It is far too early to tell whether this Fab Five will win anything, or even if they will stick together as attrition takes its inevitable toll.

And if UConn plays UNC again, I like our chances.

Great perspective!

 

[HuskyNan]

On a lesser scale there were the Waner sisters. Abby was intensely recruited. Her older sister (Emily?) was enrolled in Colorado somewhere. She couldn't play a lick

Not sure that's a fair statement, Kib. Emily may not have been an elite player but she was a starter as a freshman at Colorado and earned honors out there (two time Big 12 Freshman of the Week). I believe I would put her in the "capable backup" category at Duke.

The Paris sisters were also a package deal.

 

[Kibitzer]

Not sure that's a fair statement, Kib. Emily may not have been an elite player but she was a starter as a freshman at Colorado and earned honors out there (two time Big 12 Freshman of the Week). I believe I would put her in the "capable backup" category at Duke.

The Paris sisters were also a package deal.

Let's agree that Emily was a backup and leave it there.

And thanks for reminding us of the Paris sisters.

How many times over the years have posters (here and elsewhere) identified (erringly) potential packages, where two players purportedly want to enroll and play together only to go their separate ways on LOI signing day. A thread about that would go on and on and on...............

 

[Zorro]

A five-star post, Kibs!!

 

[alexrgct]

The Fab Five would have easily won an NC at the collegiate level if they'd stayed together more than two years. They just ran into more experienced teams in the finals. The Fab Five was also one of the most culturally significant NCAA teams of the past 25 years.

LeBron, Bosh, and D-Wade have the issue that a) LeBron and D-Wade don't really have complementary games, b) Bosh is a nice piece but the Heat really would have been better served to use his contract on a couple of quality players, c) the Heat front office has done a poor job of selecting role players (Mike Miller has been a zero, Shane Battier is beyond washed up, etc.), and d) LeBron's ability to rise to the occasion in big moments is a continuing concern. Despite these concerns, they made the finals last year, and have a very good chance to do at least that this season.

I'd say UNC has put themselves in position to vie for championships when the 2013 kids are juniors. They could easily be a Final Four caliber team as sophomores, possibly even as frosh with a little luck and precocity.

 

[Aluminny69]

In 2004 ( I think), Laura Harper fully intended to attend UConn. At virtually the last minute, she was convinced by Crystal Langhorne to attend Maryland. Two years later, they won a National championship. A successful "package" deal.

 

[UConnCat]

In 2004 ( I think), Laura Harper fully intended to attend UConn. At virtually the last minute, she was convinced by Crystal Langhorne to attend Maryland. Two years later, they won a National championship. A successful "package" deal.

Just a small quibble and not really germane to your point, but I don't recall that Harper changed her mind at the last minute. As I recall, she committed to UConn (Jamelle) sometime in September and 3 days later changed her mind and committed to Maryland. As the story goes, news of her commitment to UConn was reported by the horde, Brenda read the news and called the Philly Belles coach (Flynn ?), who contacted Harper and her family and voila: she said her commitment to UConn was made in haste but then hastily made a commitment to Maryland.

 

[Icebear]

A five-star post, Kibs!!

Don't encourage him, you'll have him wanting to jump out of planes again and his landing gear ain't what it used to be.

 

[Aluminny69]

Just a small quibble and not really germane to your point, but I don't recall that Harper changed her mind at the last minute. As I recall, she committed to UConn (Jamelle) sometime in September and 3 days later changed her mind and committed to Maryland. As the story goes, news of her commitment to UConn was reported by the horde, Brenda read the news and called the Philly Belles coach (Flynn ?), who contacted Harper and her family and voila: she said her commitment to UConn was made in haste but then hastily made a commitment to Maryland.

I'm sure HuskyNan has the correct details, but this is what I remember: Langhorne was at First Night, but appeared very unhappy to be there. Not sure if Harper was there or not. But the decision was made sometime after that. Others, feel free to help me out if I am wrong.

 

[UConnCat]

Here's a story by Jeff Goldberg on Harper and UConn and what happened in September. Of course, we know that Harper did indeed sign with Maryland in November, as did Langhorne.

http://articles.courant.com/2003-09...tt-cheltenham-high-school-philadelphia-belles

 

[Aluminny69]

Here's a story by Jeff Goldberg on Harper and UConn and what happened in September. Of course, we know that Harper did indeed sign with Maryland in November, as did Langhorne.

http://articles.courant.com/2003-09...tt-cheltenham-high-school-philadelphia-belles

Thanks, CAT, I also found this interesting article:

Langhorne Chooses Maryland

Was it a package deal? A bit of trivia: Gillian Goring is mentioned in the article.

 

[Husky1964]

Always rue the day we did not get Goring. We would have had 2 or 3 more Championships. We had to make due with overachieving and undersized post players until Tina came along. As Al McGuire said " you need the aircraft carrier."

 

[Justavisitor]

The Fab Five would have easily won an NC at the collegiate level if they'd stayed together more than two years. They just ran into more experienced teams in the finals. The Fab Five was also one of the most culturally significant NCAA teams of the past 25 years.

LeBron, Bosh, and D-Wade have the issue that a) LeBron and D-Wade don't really have complementary games, b) Bosh is a nice piece but the Heat really would have been better served to use his contract on a couple of quality players, c) the Heat front office has done a poor job of selecting role players (Mike Miller has been a zero, Shane Battier is beyond washed up, etc.), and d) LeBron's ability to rise to the occasion in big moments is a continuing concern. Despite these concerns, they made the finals last year, and have a very good chance to do at least that this season.

I'd say UNC has put themselves in position to vie for championships when the 2013 kids are juniors. They could easily be a Final Four caliber team as sophomores, possibly even as frosh with a little luck and precocity.

I agree about the Michigan Fab 5. It was not a failure, by any means. Chris Webber was only there through his sophomore year and then a couple of other left after their JR years. In WCBB, this is not an issue. If the group stays together, I would think their biggest success would come in their JR and SR years, similar to Baylor. It can take a while for the team to grow up and mature together as a team.

On Miami, the jury is still out. They've only had 1 completed season and making it to the finals isn't exactly a failure. I don't think the front office did a poor job selecting role players. Considering the salary cap, they don't exactly have many choices. I don't see many pros leaving millions of dollars on the table to join with the Miaimi Big 3. Aging players that are near the desperation points for getting a ring in their career will forego the big dollars and players coming off of injuries and with fallen stock may opt to go to Miami, but the rest will go to other teams and get their money.

I do agree that UNC has put themselves in a good position, as long as all of the players remain healthy and stay together. Typically, when these things don't work out, somebody leaves or injuries snatch them away.

 

[Creaky]

Irrelevant but interesting:

Back in those Reserve Clause days, Koufax and Drysdale demanded $1 million over three years, to be split between them. They failed. Eventually, Koufax demanded to make more in 1966 than Willie Mays ($125,000). He failed. Dodger owner Walter O’Malley ended negotiations and made much of wishing “the boys” well in their new careers. Drysdale signed for $105K, and Koufax got “in excess" of $115K. Great money in those days, but nowhere near market value. Which was the whole point of the Reserve Clause.

Thinking of O’Malley always reminds me of this famous old story: New York sportswriters Pete Hamill and Jack Newfield are sitting in a bar, and they start talking about people who would have to be in Hell if there is a Hell. They decide to rank their Top 3—the three people they’re absolutely certain would be there—and they each jot the names on a cocktail napkin. When they show their lists to each other, they are identical: Hitler, Stalin ... and Walter O’Malley, the man who moved the Dodgers from Brooklyn.

This is called holding a grudge.

 

[Drumguy]

I thought of the Paris sisters, got beat to the post. On the men's side we had Alex Oriaki and Jamel Coombs McDaniel - Jamal Coombs-McDaniel was disinchanted and left and his bud AO stayed and had a really bad year and ultimately left as well. Problem with packages is if they stay together and it all works - great, but in the end it's usually a recipe for disappointment. As I say that, it'd be hard to argue that AO and Jamal Coombs-McDaniel were disappointing as they both left with championship rings, but definately both left on a sour note..

 

[HuskyNan]

Always rue the day we did not get Goring. We would have had 2 or 3 more Championships.

Hmmm, maybe not. From Gillian's NC State bio:

Career: Five double figure scoring games ... Two double figure rebounding games ...One double double.

 

[EricLA]

Always rue the day we did not get Goring. We would have had 2 or 3 more Championships. We had to make due with overachieving and undersized post players until Tina came along. As Al McGuire said " you need the aircraft carrier."

shoulda, woulda, coulda. but i don't disagree she would have helped... however, i think GG went to NC State (after attending some JUCO in Arkansas as she was academically ineligible to attend UCONN) and was good, but not a force. i don't think she ever took her fitness seriously (unlike Tina Charles for example)

also injuries to Shea and Sveta cost us (probably) a NC. and not getting Hunter from the get go - her ACL made her much less a player, but she was every bit as talented as Parker coming out of HS... and then of course Gemelos and EDD changing their minds...

 

[VAUConnFan]

Getting five highly regarded freshmen in one recruiting class was unprecedented 20 years ago which was why Michigan's Fab Five entered the scene with all the hoopla and why they are often remembered as the ultimate package deal. In my mind, their recruitment was far from a package deal, but one can understand how certain aspects could fall into the category.
Ray Jackson was not even on Michigan's recruiting radar when Mike Boyd went to Texas to scout Luke Jackson(who ended up at Syracuse). However, Boyd liked what he saw of Ray. Ray, for his part, was a Michigan fan and welcomed the opportunity to play at Michigan.
Juwann Howard was a Michigan lean all the way and had attened the Michigan basketball camps. Howard was the first to sign his letter of intent doing so during the early signing period. One of the first calls Howard made upon making his verbal commitment to the Wolverines was to Jimmy King, his roommate during their official visit to the campus.
When Mike Boyd took the Cleveland State job, Steve Fischer offered the vacant assistant coaching slot to Perry Watson, Jalen Rose's high school coach; a high school team(Pershing I believe) that also featured Voshon Lenard. As nice as the offer was, Watson desperately wanted to coach his stacked high school team one more year. A wish that Coach Fischer granted.
Chris Webber and Jalen Rose were definitely a package; the two of them having made up their minds to attend the same college before high school. Webber, in fact, was very disappointed he was unable to attend Pershing High with Rose, his parents insisting that he go to Detroit Country Day. The prevailing thought is that they were going to play for the coach with the loosest reins. That coach turned out to be Steve Fischer.
Coach Fischer, for his part, had to endure batteries upon batteries of criticism.

The subsequent sanctions were unfortunate, but the Fab Five ignited the basketball world pro and con for two years. Even more than influencing today's prevalent uniform style, the success of the Fab Five made college coaches much more receptive to playing and counting on freshman to play significant roles on contending basketball teams. Starting five freshmen in 1992 was basketball blasphemy. Today, no one blinks an eye.
The success of the Fab Five also amounted to a marketing bonanza for University of Michigan merchandise, which, even today, ranks among the top sellers.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

On a lesser scale there were the Waner sisters. Abby (excellent player, talkative analyst and now an assistant coach) was intensely recruited. Her older sister (Emily?) was enrolled in Colorado somewhere. She couldn't play a lick, but Abby apparently persuaded Gail Goestenkors that she (Abby) was so good that GG would take her sister in a transfer to close the deal for both. Abby had a good career, both sisters got a Duke education free, and Emily packed it in.

Let's correct the inaccuracies, shall we?

- Emily Waner spent her first year at Colorado, where she averaged 7.1 points per game. Abby Waner never seriously considered Colorado. Abby's top two schools were Duke and UConn. When Emily looked to transfer, she looked at Stanford, UConn, Notre Dame, and Duke.

- Emily Waner was rated 61st coming out of high school. She was named the Colorado Girl's High School Player of the Year by the Denver Post during her senior season, as she led Thunder Ridge High School to the state title. As a senior, she was also selected Denver Post Miss Basketball, Joint Effort High School Player of the Year, 5A State Tournament MVP, Denver Post All-Colorado, Rocky Mountain News All-Colorado, 5A first team All-State, and first team All-Continental League. Waner was also invited to participate in the USA Basketball Development Festival, which does not happen for players who "couldn't play a lick." (Side note, Maria Conlon was ranked 74th in her class; on some occasions, it is about fit and development with the right coach).

- At Colorado, Emily was a two-time Big 12 Freshman of the Week selection. She hit 51 three-pointers on the season with a 39.2 percentage. Her 39.2 percentage ranked 10th in the Big 12, while her 1.7 three-pointers per game ranked seventh in the conference. Colorado went 22-8 that year.

- Emily was recruited as a transfer because Duke had a vacancy at the point guard position. At the time, Harding had finished her sophomore year, and Duke did not get a point guard in the 2004 recruiting class, having missed out on several combo guards they hoped to play there. (Side note...Wanisha Smith was not recruited by Duke until Alexis Hornbuckle and Candice Wiggins picked other schools; she was a late prospect). Harding would be a senior when Emily would be eligible to play as a sophomore (though, several months later and after Emily had transferred and enrolled, Harding was suspended for the year), which is how Goestenkors usually spaced her point guards (e.g., Krista Gingrich was two years ahead of Vicki Krapohl). Waner was also very much a "Goestenkors-type" of point guard at the time (Gingrich, Krapohl, Howard, Erickson), in that she could initiate the offense, but played off the ball as a sharpshooter with the shooting guard doing a lot of ballhandling as well. Emily's game was very much reminiscent of the players Goestenkors recruited and the ones who transferred to Duke that formed the core of the 1999 Final Four team.

- Goestenkors told the Waners that Abby could go elsewhere, but Duke was still going to take Emily because of the need at the point, no matter what. They did not commit together. Emily committed in mid-April 2004 after a visit to Duke. Abby committed two weeks later after taking additional visits. Abby says she made the decision to attend Duke back in January 2004, when she watched Duke defeat UConn on Jessica Foley's buzzer-beater during an unofficial visit to UConn. But she took other visits and did not commit until four months later.

Your comment about "couldn't play a lick" is factually inaccurate, as is the rest of your commentary on this subject.

As an aside, Emily just finished her third year at Duke Medical School. She will graduate next year.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

also injuries to Shea and Sveta cost us (probably) a NC. and not getting Hunter from the get go - her ACL made her much less a player, but she was every bit as talented as Parker coming out of HS....

It was close, but Parker was more talented because she was more versatile and more polished. Brittany was more raw, having not developed regular/consistent post moves but instead relying on power and athleticism (which were pretty incredible) which could overpower just about everyone else.

She also entered college very physically strong for someone who did not have a regular weightlifting regimen (most players don't when they enter college, which is why a good portion of their development involves strength training). She was not going to be as good as Parker (mainly because she did not have Parker's versatility and feel for the game, some of which you simply cannot teach), but she definitely could have been a Natalie Williams-type.

 

[Kibitzer]

Cam, without using band width to reprint your entire message, I concede the point about my excessively harsh comments about Emily Waner. I regret the verbiage I used that you have persuaded me was injudicious.