Out Coached.......AGAIN

[UConnDad]

So your take is: "All these players are trash but we can't fire KO because then we'd lose them."

Okey doke.


We had a top 10 recruiting class literally last year. The year before that we had a top-30 recruit, a top 80 recruit and two of the top 3 postgrad transfers available.

And for some reason none of them improve, and the team just keeps getting worse.

I like your insight most times but I have to ask you how much and how quickly you expect a postgrad to improve n a new system with new players?

 

[Sonova]

Whatever, your idiotic - I'm idiotic I could care less about your perspective or many others quite honestly. Pretty simple game make shots, win games. Is there more to it, yes there is at times but if our kids made shots down the stretch and many were open looks then we have a much better chance to win this one as Jell Bean proposed and you ripped. His reply was spot on but those who wish to always take it to the Fire KO level will do so. The kids competed hard, held a tough team to 16-42 from inside the arc but they made 3's and we didn't. There have been games where he has looked lost and got out coached sometimes even dramatically but this was not one of them. But feel free to pile on, it's the way of the BY.

That perspective works better in isolation (as in one game). When it happens again and again and again over multiple seasons, it’s more than just “we didn’t make shots.” And btw, I didn’t “rip” anyone. I offered a different perspective. And quite respectfully I might add. Whether you could or couldn’t care less means nothing to me as well so we have some common ground.

 

[KodiacKemba]

We won the NC 2014 and 2016 we had the 8th overall nationally in recruiting.. kids left cuz Ollie was being too hard on them n emphasized defense.. he tried to do what was best for Durham even wanted to redshirt him coming off surgery, instead of him taking his time to heal and get into better shape he jumps ship.. idk maybe Ollie cares too much for his players and then get burned after the season ends.. AG knew he was hurt n again he Re-injured his shoulder tough luck .. Vance wanted to be the show and for a guard driven team I think he benefited more by all the penetration so all he had to do was spot up n shoot because his handles were horrible ... even vital wanted out but talked it over with his hs coach so you lose 3 of ya top big men all who were legit 6-10 or taller , then you have to scramble on players you just get to fill out ya roster , of course you’re not going to protect the paint or be able to play to the standard of UCONN... we blame the conference but we can still get top guys so it shouldn’t matter because it’s all gonna be settled on the court example NCAA tournament.. not a believer this year but I see chill kill Ollie getting the best for uconn and akinjo n Matthews is a start ..

So next year hoping for returns:
JA
AG
Akinjo
CV
TL
Sid
Matthews
Polley
Cobb
Carlton
Kisunas
Diarra
Whaley
Getting 4 guards is crucial for Ollie’s system and length on the backend to affect shots which I think we’ll have after this season and yes another grad transfer at least 7 foot
Now I think a couple players are going to hop ship again but it shouldn’t affect us if our 2 top guys return Ollie has to convince them to stay!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Exits
Kwintin
Polley
The obvious DO n AA

 

[CTBasketball]

We won the NC 2014 and 2016 we had the 8th overall nationally in recruiting.. kids left cuz Ollie was being too hard on them n emphasized defense.. he tried to do what was best for Durham even wanted to redshirt him coming off surgery, instead of him taking his time to heal and get into better shape he jumps ship.. idk maybe Ollie cares too much for his players and then get burned after the season ends.. AG knew he was hurt n again he Re-injured his shoulder tough luck .. Vance wanted to be the show and for a guard driven team I think he benefited more by all the penetration so all he had to do was spot up n shoot because his handles were horrible ... even vital wanted out but talked it over with his hs coach so you lose 3 of ya top big men all who were legit 6-10 or taller , then you have to scramble on players you just get to fill out ya roster , of course you’re not going to protect the paint or be able to play to the standard of UCONN... we blame the conference but we can still get top guys so it shouldn’t matter because it’s all gonna be settled on the court example NCAA tournament.. not a believer this year but I see chill kill Ollie getting the best for uconn and akinjo n Matthews is a start ..

So next year hoping for returns:
JA
AG
Akinjo
CV
TL
Sid
Matthews
Polley
Cobb
Carlton
Kisunas
Diarra
Whaley
Getting 4 guards is crucial for Ollie’s system and length on the backend to affect shots which I think we’ll have after this season and yes another grad transfer at least 7 foot
Now I think a couple players are going to hop ship again but it shouldn’t affect us if our 2 top guys return Ollie has to convince them to stay!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Exits
Kwintin
Polley
The obvious DO n AA

Durham, Enoch, and Jackson left because they realized they had zero shot at developing under Ollie.

 

[Kemba429]

ah, how the top five turned into the top two

 

[HuskyBandDad]

That perspective works better in isolation (as in one game). When it happens again and again and again over multiple seasons, it’s more than just “we didn’t make shots.” And btw, I didn’t “rip” anyone. I offered a different perspective. And quite respectfully I might add. Whether you could or couldn’t care less means nothing to me as well so we have some common ground.

If we do just a little better guarding the 3 pt line and have a 3 pt shooter like WS, AZ and Mich St we probably win 2 out of 3 of those games.

 

[KodiacKemba]

Durham, Enoch, and Jackson left because they realized they had zero shot at developing under Ollie.

Maybe.? But the player in me I was always taught if you want to develop anything in life to be better at was to work on it yourself.. trust me I was coached but no coach needed to tell me what I needed to work on cuz as a player I already knew .. I get tired of the development by a head coach, trust me that’s why they hire assistant coaches, Grad Assistants, strength n condition coaches, big man coach, shooting coach, an ego coach lol you name it you look at calipary teams and all those top guys got better after they left wall, cousins, the eyebrows... the twins, poytress didn’t get better or develop.. these coaches are brought in to win period especially at the traditional powers

 

[August_West]

View attachment 27405

Leader! Coach on the floor. Led his team to a championship.

So just to be clear. Coach on the floor means KO can't coach. No Coach on the floor means KO can't coach.

Nice little position you have there.

 

[KembaStepback]

I agree and also have to think some are right about KO needing to go. They will lose at least Akinjo probably and I am sure a mass exodus will also occur.

The funny thing would be watching these people when the first 2 years are total rebuild and see how they act after 11-20 and 15-16 for 2 more years. Problem is how can you think KO will suddenly get it? I mean we're in a tough, sad situation as fans right now.

I think he does get it. The issue is that he's realized that no one on the team can shoot so he has to run an iso offense for Adams and Larrier and to a lesser extent Vital. No one else is any good on offense. Not even as a role player. The bigs are raw, and will be fine in a few years with more strength and experience. Im confident in that. If he had guys who could knock down open jumpers the offense would be better. I think it also hurts the Jalen and Terry only trust Jalen and Terry. Neither is looking to pass at all. I cant say I blame them.

 

[Saab04]

So just to be clear. Coach on the floor means KO can't coach. No Coach on the floor means KO can't coach.

Nice little position you have there.

Ollie can’t coach. You think he can? And if so, what has Ollie done with his players, not Calhoun’s, that makes you think he can?

 

[Tuna]

And wasn’t Ryan Boatright the point guard that year? Another one of Calhouns players

You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Matrim55]

You're embarrassing yourself.

Just mute him. He says the same thing, over and over, and offers no real insight or conversational ability.

 

[Saab04]

Just mute him. He says the same thing, over and over, and offers no real insight or conversational ability.

You’re mad bro and so is your buddy Tuna. You guys sound ridiculous with your responses. Ollie is a scrub. He gets no credit for 2014. If you feel differently, then we will have to agree to disagree.

I continue repeating myself because you guys can’t answer the damn questions. Instead you guys make ridiculous comments.

 

[Saab04]

You're embarrassing yourself.

Facts! No way I’m embarrassing myself. Y’all should be embarrassed.

 

[TheRealKBuks]

If Ollie is fired I'd be so mad. There is no way firing Ollie would do this program good. They'd probably lose Akinjo. Not to mention guys who would transfer. You think the roster is bad now? If Ollie is fired itd be a dumpster fire.

No one on the team can shoot. All the big men are raw and undersized. Gilbert is out. I agree the offense isn't good but they're playing 3 on 5. Anderson is useless. No big man is any good.

The conference is hurting recruiting. I'm willing to give Ollie a few more yrs to right the ship.

Are you trying to say that if Ollie is fired we will miss out on the #105 ranked prospect in the country...The horror.

 

[KembaStepback]

Facts! No way I’m embarrassing myself. Y’all should be embarrassed.

We can disagree on KO getting no credit for the NC. They had just come off sanctions (Calhouns issues, not his) and yes he had mostly Calhouns roster, but Brimah was his, and made the play of the tournament against St Joes to keep them alive. Deandre Daniels barely played for Cahoun and developed into a very good college player under Ollie. Ollie has had to deal with sanctions and moving to a worse conference. None of which were his doing.

Just for the sake of conversation...what would you do differently on offense with this flawed roster? No one can make a jump shot.
I know you'll say he recruited this team, and you're right. That is his fault, but I don't think it's a fireable offense. I do like that he shook things up and got Chill in there to help with the recruiting, which seems to be doing better. UConn has been extremely unlucky in this regard. Vance wanted to be a superstar which he isn't close to ready for. Durham leaving is an enigma. They lost close calls on Diallo and Carey.

The other point I'll make about developing players...yes part of it is on Ollie, but part of it has to be on the player as well. Ollie can only do so much for them. Guys have improved over their time with Ollie. Facey improved and to a lesser extent Nolan did too. Ollie also hasn't had the luxury of having a highly recruited big either, which is one of our biggest needs.

Like I've said elsewhere on this board, I think Ollie deserves some scrutiny, but should not be fired. The repercussions of firing him would be so bad. I'm not ready for that. I don't think any of you are either.

 

[TheRealKBuks]

So your take is: "All these players are trash but we can't fire KO because then we'd lose them."

Okey doke.


We had a top 10 recruiting class literally last year. The year before that we had a top-30 recruit, a top 80 recruit and two of the top 3 postgrad transfers available.

And for some reason none of them improve, and the team just keeps getting worse.

I wonder what the common denominator is.

Why does it have to be one or the other. The conference AND the coach are both problems.

 

[tzznandrew]

Like I've said elsewhere on this board, I think Ollie deserves some scrutiny, but should not be fired. The repercussions of firing him would be so bad. I'm not ready for that. I don't think any of you are either.

Anyone who thinks firing him mid-year is a good idea should be shot out of a cannon.

At the end of the year? We can have some debate. I think it's less likely than everyone else, but that's not going to have terrible repercussions.

 

[Huskybass]

We can disagree on KO getting no credit for the NC. They had just come off sanctions (Calhouns issues, not his) and yes he had mostly Calhouns roster, but Brimah was his, and made the play of the tournament against St Joes to keep them alive. Deandre Daniels barely played for Cahoun and developed into a very good college player under Ollie. Ollie has had to deal with sanctions and moving to a worse conference. None of which were his doing.

Just for the sake of conversation...what would you do differently on offense with this flawed roster? No one can make a jump shot.
I know you'll say he recruited this team, and you're right. That is his fault, but I don't think it's a fireable offense. I do like that he shook things up and got Chill in there to help with the recruiting, which seems to be doing better. UConn has been extremely unlucky in this regard. Vance wanted to be a superstar which he isn't close to ready for. Durham leaving is an enigma. They lost close calls on Diallo and Carey.

The other point I'll make about developing players...yes part of it is on Ollie, but part of it has to be on the player as well. Ollie can only do so much for them. Guys have improved over their time with Ollie. Facey improved and to a lesser extent Nolan did too. Ollie also hasn't had the luxury of having a highly recruited big either, which is one of our biggest needs.

Like I've said elsewhere on this board, I think Ollie deserves some scrutiny, but should not be fired. The repercussions of firing him would be so bad. I'm not ready for that. I don't think any of you are either.

Please. Tell me what Kevin Ollie has actually done well over the past 3 1/2 seasons. Do you not realize that the average margin of defeat this season is 19 points in the 6 losses? Or that he started 3 guys last game that didn't score a single point? How bad does it need to get before some of you see this for what it is?

 

[Waquoit]

I might add that executing on both sides of the court is a whole lot easier when you have a bunch of returning players with significant experience over a roster of newbies, but the dumpster fire crowd doesn't like that thinking either

You run off a bunch of players then ask for patience due to the lack of returning players. That's like the Menendez Brothers asking for clemency because they're orphans.

 

[tzznandrew]

Please. Tell me what Kevin Ollie has actually done well over the past 3 1/2 seasons. Do you not realize that the average margin of defeat this season is 19 points in the 6 losses? Or that he started 3 guys last game that didn't score a single point? How bad does it need to get before some of you see this for what it is?

Personally, I think you need to keep some things in consideration.

First, this board has always been prone to hysterics. So I think a lot of us see the posters here who are calling for extremes or who immediately jumped off the bandwagon (like, two years ago) with suspicion. Those same people often jumped on and off the wagon throughout the entirety of the Calhoun-era, sometimes multiple times in the same season--seasons that ended in National Championships. So, there's that.

Second, you say 3.5 years for a reason. It cuts out a national title. National championships are hard to come by, and you can't really luck your way into them. That has bought KO a grace period in many people's eyes, and it certainly should have. Stability is a good thing.

Third, I think a lot of people thought 2016 was a disappointment, but an understandable on in many ways: there were a ton of new parts KO had to integrate, and while he didn't do it as well as we all would have liked, we weren't on the bubble like many people seem to think, and they won the AAC tournament.

Fourth, last year was a train wreck of injuries. There was a good recruiting class we were excited about, but our PG got injured right away, our 3 did as well. It already had the look of a bad season, and if there weren't injuries and the season went the way it was looking, a lot more of those of us who are more neutral or late to the "time to move on" party would have decisively done so.

Fifth, the team lost a lot of players, they didn't seem to like each other, etc, in the off-season. They came into this season with terribly low expectations, as they should have. But KO pulled in some players who didn't seem have bad, and brought in a killer for recruiting purposes. My position then was that if this season showed growth--given all the circumstances--we'd probably be fine with KO going forward. Now, the team looks like a disaster, and the Gilbert injury plays a role in that. But I'm not sure what anyone is seeing now that they couldn't have foreseen in May.

So, all in all, I'm not happy with the state of the program, but realistically it's not as bad as some of the hysterics suggest. I wasn't a fan of how KO was hired, but a title means something, as do injuries. I'm assuming, given the cost of moving on, we'll have KO for another year at minimum, so I'm rooting for the team as is. If, somehow they find the money and move on to a somewhat exciting hire (not Pikeill, but Hurley I can get behind), I wouldn't be upset, though I'd be sad that all the hope I felt about the future of the program from 2013-2016 came to this.

 

[Huskybass]

Personally, I think you need to keep some things in consideration.

First, this board has always been prone to hysterics. So I think a lot of us see the posters here who are calling for extremes or who immediately jumped off the bandwagon (like, two years ago) with suspicion. Those same people often jumped on and off the wagon throughout the entirety of the Calhoun-era, sometimes multiple times in the same season--seasons that ended in National Championships. So, there's that.

Second, you say 3.5 years for a reason. It cuts out a national title. National championships are hard to come by, and you can't really luck your way into them. That has bought KO a grace period in many people's eyes, and it certainly should have. Stability is a good thing.

Third, I think a lot of people thought 2016 was a disappointment, but an understandable on in many ways: there were a ton of new parts KO had to integrate, and while he didn't do it as well as we all would have liked, we weren't on the bubble like many people seem to think, and they won the AAC tournament.

Fourth, last year was a train wreck of injuries. There was a good recruiting class we were excited about, but our PG got injured right away, our 3 did as well. It already had the look of a bad season, and if there weren't injuries and the season went the way it was looking, a lot more of those of us who are more neutral or late to the "time to move on" party would have decisively done so.

Fifth, the team lost a lot of players, they didn't seem to like each other, etc, in the off-season. They came into this season with terribly low expectations, as they should have. But KO pulled in some players who didn't seem have bad, and brought in a killer for recruiting purposes. My position then was that if this season showed growth--given all the circumstances--we'd probably be fine with KO going forward. Now, the team looks like a disaster, and the Gilbert injury plays a role in that. But I'm not sure what anyone is seeing now that they couldn't have foreseen in May.

So, all in all, I'm not happy with the state of the program, but realistically it's not as bad as some of the hysterics suggest. I wasn't a fan of how KO was hired, but a title means something, as do injuries. I'm assuming, given the cost of moving on, we'll have KO for another year at minimum, so I'm rooting for the team as is. If, somehow they find the money and move on to a somewhat exciting hire (not Pikeill, but Hurley I can get behind), I wouldn't be upset, though I'd be sad that all the hope I felt about the future of the program from 2013-2016 came to this.

I thank you for your reply as it is certainly thought out and reasonable. Perhaps I should have phrased my question a little differently. But you got the gist of my question and from what I can tell the only real accomplishment in the past 3 1/2 seasons is winning the AAC tournament in 2016. As you are probably aware, SMU was ineligible that year so one of the other real contenders wasn't even in the mix. In any event, UConn didn't even win an NIT game the year before, or get an NIT invite the year after. The point being that since Shabazz and co left the overall body of work with consistent 5th place finishes in the AAC is disappointing at best.

Yes there have been some obstacles. But any objective view of the post Shabazz era indicates that the program is in a very bad place. I would think that you would have to concede that if you are being honest.

 

[RayRay34]

Pretty simple game make shots, win games. Is there more to it, yes there is...

...there is so much more to winning basketball games then making shots. If a team's principal gameplan is: "Make shots, win games", that team is not going to succeed even if they do make shots (which UC doesn't). When shots aren't falling, they need to identify other ways to win games, be it through getting to the line, clock management, rebounding, motion offense, defensive schemes/ pressure, etc.
In-game coaching is all about recognizing collective and individual strengths and weaknesses (for both your own team and your opponent's), and manipulating them to be beneficial. That stuff just isn't happening and will continue to cost us some wins this year.

 

[August_West]

...there is so much more to winning basketball games then making shots. If a team's principal gameplan is: "Make shots, win games", that team is not going to succeed even if they do make shots (which UC doesn't). When shots aren't falling, they need to identify other ways to win games, be it through getting to the line, clock management, rebounding, motion offense, defensive schemes/ pressure, etc.
In-game coaching is all about recognizing collective and individual strengths and weaknesses (for both your own team and your opponent's), and manipulating them to be beneficial. That stuff just isn't happening and will continue to cost us some wins this year.

How the hell do you think we were in the Witchita game at all? If you took a look at the stat sheet at the 30 minute mark we shouldve been down 15-20 points not up one. We were getting destroyed on the boards, from 3 point line and everywhere else. How were we leading?

 

[KembaStepback]

Please. Tell me what Kevin Ollie has actually done well over the past 3 1/2 seasons. Do you not realize that the average margin of defeat this season is 19 points in the 6 losses? Or that he started 3 guys last game that didn't score a single point? How bad does it need to get before some of you see this for what it is?

Your statistic is a bit misleading. They played MSU and WSU very close to eventually lose by double digits in the final moments. I don't consider those bad losses. Auburn and Arkansas were bad losses.

Your point about starting 3 guys that didn't score a point helps make my point. After last season (which was bad, but they were destroyed with injury) then there were some transfers and graduating players. Ollie had to scramble to put together a roster. He got guys like AA and DO as fillers. These guys are terrible. They're bodies. To be fair, Anderson probably wouldn't be playing nearly as much if AG were healthy. I know he was a headache, but VJ would be perfect for this years team. Even with AG injury. you can play Adams, Vital, Larrier, VJ and one of the bigs. That team would have two good 3/stretch 4 players some decent length and some shooting. Again - that's one player difference. They need a shooter in the worst way. They need more weapons. Literally Adams, Larrier and Vital are the only guys defenses need to worry about. No one else on the roster brings anything on offense. It's tough to coach and run an offense like that. Lets give him and Chill time to build the roster. Ollie still has name recognition and Chillious already seems to be paying dividends. Patience is a virtue. I think with time we'll be back to where we should be.

 

[Saab04]

Shabazz and company took Ollie for a ride. What has Ollie done in the span of 4yrs without Calhoun’s players that says he can develop super stars? Or at least a consistent player. I’ll wait.

 

[tzznandrew]

Yes there have been some obstacles. But any objective view of the post Shabazz era indicates that the program is in a very bad place. I would think that you would have to concede that if you are being honest.

I agree. The program is certainly in a bad place. Some is on KO, some is just on the luck of injuries.

2013-2016 was a somewhat normal UConn cycle, though. Tough team that would have made the NCAAs if not for a dumb ban, NCAA title, down year after losing a ton of the team, an up year (that should have been better!) that was building towards...something with Adams-Purvis-Hamilton-Facey-Brimah and then recruits....which injuries and the unexpected Hamilton leaving destroyed. And then we lost half our roster again.

In other words, after the 2016 NCAAs and before Hamilton left, we all felt like the year wasn't as good as it should have been, but pretty optimistic for the future. And then it's been one gut punch after another.

As I said, I'm rooting for this team, and these players, and this coach, because that's who we have before us. If, in the off-season, there's a change, I'll root for that team, and those players, and that coach.

 

[Huskybass]

I agree. The program is certainly in a bad place. Some is on KO, some is just on the luck of injuries.

2013-2016 was a somewhat normal UConn cycle, though. Tough team that would have made the NCAAs if not for a dumb ban, NCAA title, down year after losing a ton of the team, an up year (that should have been better!) that was building towards...something with Adams-Purvis-Hamilton-Facey-Brimah and then recruits....which injuries and the unexpected Hamilton leaving destroyed. And then we lost half our roster again.

In other words, after the 2016 NCAAs and before Hamilton left, we all felt like the year wasn't as good as it should have been, but pretty optimistic for the future. And then it's been one gut punch after another.

As I said, I'm rooting for this team, and these players, and this coach, because that's who we have before us. If, in the off-season, there's a change, I'll root for that team, and those players, and that coach.

Fair enough. And thank you for rationally discussing things even if I don't see the potential for a turnaround quite like you do. In the end we probably want the same thing which is simply a return to being relevant.

 

[Candyman]

Ollie doesn't know how to get the best out of his players and thats all on him. I'm not talking about giving it their all I'm talking knowing what they can and can't do. He wants position less basketball and everyone be able to create on their own but when you dont have the players to do this you need to adjust and he hasn't. This is why Ollie won't be successful this year or next.

Example- He is using Larrier all wrong. Kid can shoot and he runs Iso's with him when he should be running him off screens to catch and shoot. He is not a 4 and it has showed. He can't dribble and Ollie runs s a weave and expects him to turn the corner if its open when he just can't. I would say the same thing could be said of Purvis. Purvis also isn't a break you down player. Boat and Bazz were and Adams and Gilbert are but to use all your players that way is not playing to their strengths.

Larrier isn't a 4 and him at the 4 is hurting this teams rebounding. A stretch 4 should bring out the other teams PF and create a mismatch and Larrier not being able to dribble takes away that advantage. At least at the 3 he can shoot over smaller defenders. This also leaves two bigs fighting for offensive rebounds and not 1.

 

[tzznandrew]

Example- He is using Larrier all wrong. Kid can shoot and he runs Iso's with him when he should be running him off screens to catch and shoot. He is not a 4 and it has showed.

Bingo. Run him off screens, or get pindowns on smaller 3s. Once he's gotten that he can be a discount Rip and drive off the catch since the defender is already behind him.