Our Senior Guards

[Excalibur]

We are missing 1 serviceable guard. Gaffney is just not ready, and no one else is really able to play the PG position.

Regardless, Hurley is making coaching sin #1 by giving the leash he is to the senior guards. What he's doing is dangerous for team chemistry. As I said elsewhere, everyone, even coaches can be stunned by the MSG lights. If the coaching disaster occurs a third time, I'll start to be concerned.

So if nobody else is ready or can play the PG position, and Gilbert is getting too long a leash, what is the alternative? Because the two statements certainly contradict each other.

 

[Excalibur]

If you're pushing to cut the PT of our senior guards and only capable point guard, you're admitting that we're already playing for next year.

 

[yungdowork]

It’s honestly tough because both of them provide something that nobody else on our team has proven capable of.

Gilbert quarterbacks the offense better than any other play on their roster, in spite of his bad shot selection and poor shooting performances.

Vital is legitimately the best rebounder on the team and a very capable defender, but he just tries waaaaay too hard to be a hero and never gets his within the flow of the offense.

If we have any aspirations of making the tournament this year, we have to rely pretty heavily on them, but so far this year I haven’t been extremely impressed. Even in the win vs Florida, both shot the ball pretty poorly and turned the ball over too many times

 

[superjohn]

If you're pushing to cut the PT of our senior guards and only capable point guard, you're admitting that we're already playing for next year.

I disagree strongly, if you're not willing to cut Vital's time some and give Bouknight more time and leeway you're abandoning any chance at the NCAA's this season.

 

[Excalibur]

I disagree strongly, if you're not willing to cut Vital's time some and give Bouknight more time and leeway you're abandoning any chance at the NCAA's this season.

I'll meet you halfway on Bouk/Vital, although last night it wouldn't have made a difference. If you want to play Gaffney now when he's clearly not ready, you're forfeiting games until he is . . .

 

[superjohn]

I'll meet you halfway on Bouk/Vital, although last night it wouldn't have made a difference. If you want to play Gaffney now when he's clearly not ready, you're forfeiting games until he is . . .

I'm consistent on Alterique has to play almost the whole game because of his ballhandling and breakdown abilities but the two of them on the court together has basically been a black hole against non cupcake teams.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

You can say they give us our best chance of winning but it's just not true.

Gilbert gives us the best chance of winning when he looks for his own offense as a last resort or at the very least within the flow of what they're running. The offense has looked the best when he's in the game and playing like a point guard, rather than a scoring guard. I don't know who runs the offense if it's not him. But I agree that his leash needs to be tighter (or exist).

Vital is a different story. Love the kid's moxie and his energy but sometimes I cringe when he hits a deep three early because it's usually a shot he could get with 2 seconds on the shot clock rather than 20 and I feel like it encourages him to keep looking for it. He's got a role to play, no doubt, but I agree with you that Hurley needs to do a better job of reigning him in when he sees that hero stuff creeping in.

Also, relatedly, I get that a point of emphasis is getting the ball in Carlton's hands because he's effective but we must have turned the ball over ten times trying to force entry passes that weren't there.

 

[tzznandrew]

Gilbert gives us the best chance of winning when he looks for his own offense as a last resort or at the very least within the flow of what they're running. The offense has looked the best when he's in the game and playing like a point guard, rather than a scoring guard. I don't know who runs the offense if it's not him. But I agree that his leash needs to be tighter (or exist).

Vital is a different story. Love the kid's moxie and his energy but sometimes I cringe when he hits a deep three early because it's usually a shot he could get with 2 seconds on the shot clock rather than 20 and I feel like it encourages him to keep looking for it. He's got a role to play, no doubt, but I agree with you that Hurley needs to do a better job of reigning him in when he sees that hero stuff creeping in.

Also, relatedly, I get that a point of emphasis is getting the ball in Carlton's hands because he's effective but we must have turned the ball over ten times trying to force entry passes that weren't there.

All this is right and great, and if I had the capacity to "Like" it, I would.

 

[uconngb]

Gaffney needs to get 25+ min the next 3 games against the cupcakes. He needs to run the team and offense in those games. Get comfortable.

Good point and good idea. We are a train wreck w CV handling the ball for more than 5 seconds at a time.

 

[uconnever]

I'm consistent on Alterique has to play almost the whole game because of his ballhandling and breakdown abilities but the two of them on the court together has basically been a black hole against non cupcake teams.

I agree we need Gilbert to play a lot even though he drives me crazy at times. But I just get the feeling he feels some sort of loyalty to Vital.

 

[Martin]

If you mean it's going to take a period of time before the newer players are comfortable with the system, can integrate with other players and become more and more consistent in providing positive contributions versus negative then your statement is very accurate.

I meant to quote a post regarding Dan Hurley not benching a player quick enough for bad play. My post would hopefully sound less out of place had I done that.

 

[ctchamps]

Gilbert gives us the best chance of winning when he looks for his own offense as a last resort or at the very least within the flow of what they're running. The offense has looked the best when he's in the game and playing like a point guard, rather than a scoring guard. I don't know who runs the offense if it's not him. But I agree that his leash needs to be tighter (or exist).

Vital is a different story. Love the kid's moxie and his energy but sometimes I cringe when he hits a deep three early because it's usually a shot he could get with 2 seconds on the shot clock rather than 20 and I feel like it encourages him to keep looking for it. He's got a role to play, no doubt, but I agree with you that Hurley needs to do a better job of reigning him in when he sees that hero stuff creeping in.

Also, relatedly, I get that a point of emphasis is getting the ball in Carlton's hands because he's effective but we must have turned the ball over ten times trying to force entry passes that weren't there.

Agree with most of what you wrote. Disagree with Hurley's management of CV. Indiana's up 36-31 when Christian takes a quick 3 pt shot at 16:29 remaining. Hurley pulls him out and CV sits until 11:18 remaining with Indiana leading 38 -36 .

From 16:29 until 14:58 Indiana increases the lead to 38-31. CV is still benched.

Additionally for those making statements about Hurley's double standards with upperclassmen:

Tyler Polley takes a quick 3 pt shot at 13:42. Hurley subs him out for Bouknight at 13:40 with Indiana leading 35-31. Tyler is subbed back in with 7:51 remaining with the score 40-38 Indiana.
Gilbert takes a quick 3 at 11:20 and is subbed out at 11:18 for Christian with the score 38-36 Indiana. Alterique is subbed back in at 9:53 with the score tied at 38.

In spite of the same bad play Hurley only seats Al for one minute and 27 seconds. He recognizes, as do you and several of us, the critical need to keep Alterique in the game. Of those three players taking the type of shots that Hurley obviously emphasized not to take at halftime (and the type of shots that the brilliant Boneyarders point out but not so brilliantly observe Hurley's awareness and actions), Polley was kept on the bench the longest while CV was benched less than Polley and more than Alterique. I'm sure he would have preferred benching them all equally but chose to put them back based on relative contributions. It's an action by a coach trying to deal with the immediate situation of winning an important game with sending a long term message that things need to change.

 

[Waquoit]

I agree we need Gilbert to play a lot even though he drives me crazy at times. But I just get the feeling he feels some sort of loyalty to Vital.

And that's a problem.

 

[JB75]

I don't think he's even looking at a PG for next season and is counting on Gaffney/Cole with Adams as a backup. I do think we need another off guard with ball handling skills and can create his own shot. I think that is what we are really going to be lacking next season.

Geez. Relying on gaffney and Adams for next year backing up cole- yikes !!! Not good.

 

[JB75]

Agree with most of what you wrote. Disagree with Hurley's management of CV. Indiana's up 36-31 when Christian takes a quick 3 pt shot at 16:29 remaining. Hurley pulls him out and CV sits until 11:18 remaining with Indiana leading 38 -36 .

From 16:29 until 14:58 Indiana increases the lead to 38-31. CV is still benched.

Additionally for those making statements about Hurley's double standards with upperclassmen:

Tyler Polley takes a quick 3 pt shot at 13:42. Hurley subs him out for Bouknight at 13:40 with Indiana leading 35-31. Tyler is subbed back in with 7:51 remaining with the score 40-38 Indiana.
Gilbert takes a quick 3 at 11:20 and is subbed out at 11:18 for Christian with the score 38-36 Indiana. Alterique is subbed back in at 9:53 with the score tied at 38.

In spite of the same bad play Hurley only seats Al for one minute and 27 seconds. He recognizes, as do you and several of us, the critical need to keep Alterique in the game. Of those three players taking the type of shots that Hurley obviously emphasized not to take at halftime (and the type of shots that the brilliant Boneyarders point out but not so brilliantly observe Hurley's awareness and actions), Polley was kept on the bench the longest while CV was benched less than Polley and more than Alterique. I'm sure he would have preferred benching them all equally but chose to put them back based on relative contributions. It's an action by a coach trying to deal with the immediate situation of winning an important game with sending a long term message that things need to change.

The difference is when alterique is going to thru his bad spells we still need him to bring the ball up - when vital starts “getting crazy” it’s a double whammy because he’ll commit careless mistakes AND we can’t have him bring the ball up

 

[JB75]

So, are the "bench CV and AG" crowd" thinking that Gaffney, Bouk, and Adams will perform better? Those three were horrendous last night and sorry, Gaffney is nowhere near ready to be a contributor at this juncture.

While I agree that AG and CV were horrible Wednesday night you really got to pick your poison- at least CV and AG can do some things decently - u throw gaffney and Adams in there(when Adams is last years Adams) and it’s brutal. especially Gaffney- he’s just not ready.

 

[ctchamps]

The difference is when alterique is going to thru his bad spells we still need him to bring the ball up - when vital starts “getting crazy” it’s a double whammy because he’ll commit careless mistakes AND we can’t have him bring the ball up

And I pointed out not only what you have stated but Hurley is aware of it also as evidenced by the amount of time he kept CV on the bench versus the amount of time he kept Al on the bench.

The Boneyard is starting a narrative that Hurley is not aware of this nor is he acting on it. I went to a lot of detail specifically to demonstrate that a lot of posters are just throwing it against the wall. People calling CV out for bad play are not accurate themselves with some of the shots their taking.

 

[BuffaloHusky]

One thing that bothers me constantly about the college game is how often teams searching for a "great" shot often just lead to turnovers. It doesn't matter if they are errant passes, travels, illegal screens but you see them constantly in the half court. I really feel like AG needs to get the ball up as quickly as possible and the offense has to take the first good shot not necessarily wait for the better shot. Simultaneously, instead of "overfeeding the post", JC needs work harder to get position which leads to easier passes.

 

[Waquoit]

The Boneyard is starting a narrative that Hurley is not aware of this nor is he acting on it.

He's aware of it, I agree. I think he's hoping they'll figure it out but they're not making it easy on him. How many steaming piles will it take? Looks like more than three.

 

[ZenConn]

Disappointed with our guard play overall. This was supposed to be our strong point.

I can't find any excuses for CV and his play. He's been playing for 4 years here.

I'm going to give AG the benefit of the doubt here. He's barely a sophomore in terms of games played and I still think he'll turn it around. In the two years that he was out for injury, he couldn't even practice much because of these injuries. The BY had the same complaints with Taleik and with Kemba as freshman/sophs.

 

[ctchamps]

He's aware of it, I agree. I think he's hoping they'll figure it out but they're not making it easy on him. How many steaming piles will it take? Looks like more than three.

He's aware and he acted on it. See post #45 where I point out play by play the actions he took in the second half of the Indiana game.

 

[superjohn]

He's aware and he acted on it. See post #45 where I point out play by play the actions he took in the second half of the Indiana game.

I don't think he's figured out who CV is at all yet. He had him running point and he played the second most minutes on the team after Josh. When he's going like that he'll cost you games which he did the other night.

 

[JustbrewitMan]

Agree with most of what you wrote. Disagree with Hurley's management of CV. Indiana's up 36-31 when Christian takes a quick 3 pt shot at 16:29 remaining. Hurley pulls him out and CV sits until 11:18 remaining with Indiana leading 38 -36 .

From 16:29 until 14:58 Indiana increases the lead to 38-31. CV is still benched.

Additionally for those making statements about Hurley's double standards with upperclassmen:

Tyler Polley takes a quick 3 pt shot at 13:42. Hurley subs him out for Bouknight at 13:40 with Indiana leading 35-31. Tyler is subbed back in with 7:51 remaining with the score 40-38 Indiana.
Gilbert takes a quick 3 at 11:20 and is subbed out at 11:18 for Christian with the score 38-36 Indiana. Alterique is subbed back in at 9:53 with the score tied at 38.

In spite of the same bad play Hurley only seats Al for one minute and 27 seconds. He recognizes, as do you and several of us, the critical need to keep Alterique in the game. Of those three players taking the type of shots that Hurley obviously emphasized not to take at halftime (and the type of shots that the brilliant Boneyarders point out but not so brilliantly observe Hurley's awareness and actions), Polley was kept on the bench the longest while CV was benched less than Polley and more than Alterique. I'm sure he would have preferred benching them all equally but chose to put them back based on relative contributions. It's an action by a coach trying to deal with the immediate situation of winning an important game with sending a long term message that things need to change.

Mods, please delete this post. We don’t want any objective evidence refuting the tired narratives that:

-Hurley will do anything to be loved by his players including purposefully leaving them in after bad decisions
-Hurley only does hockey line substitutions

 

[Excalibur]

Mods, please delete this post. We don’t want any objective evidence refuting the tired narratives that:

-Hurley will do anything to be loved by his players including purposefully leaving them in after bad decisions
-Hurley only does hockey line substitutions

Just wait. We're soon to hear that Hurley is holding Bouknight back because he's afraid of him leaving after this year . . .

 

[CTBasketball]

He’ll learn to play within his means once Hurley adopts the quick hook.

Bad shots, dumb turnovers = bench

 

[BuffaloHusky]

He’ll learn to play within his means once Hurley adopts the quick hook.

Bad shots, dumb turnovers = bench

That applies to Carlton as well but I think a better solution is not starting him at all yet continuing to give him starter minutes. I've made the argument before that we may be better starting IW (or Akok at the 5) instead of JC for three primary reasons:

1) IW's consistent energy and effort
2) it limits early JC fouls
3) most importantly: it eliminates at least one unforced turnover in the opening minutes trying to get JC involved in the game

The bigger consequence though is it may open the floor and prevent the clutter on the court that leads to the guards turnovers.

 

[ctchamps]

I don't think he's figured out who CV is at all yet. He had him running point and he played the second most minutes on the team after Josh. When he's going like that he'll cost you games which he did the other night.

You indicated you would review the game regarding the foul situation with Alterique. You might also iso on the play of Brendan, Jalen and James prior to inserting Christian back in the game to run point. It's less Hurley doesn't know what to do then his options were limited that game. I went to great lengths in post #45 to show that Hurley is both aware of things you point out, equally upset about those points, and took action in the second half to send the message. If you believe it wasn't enough of a message I'll have to disagree with you. It was a tight very important game, still winnable, and the bench was a no show. To give up the season this early because he was frustrated with the older players would be grounds for his contract to be terminated. If the game was a blow out against us I most certainly would agree with you and wished he sat them down for the half. But I believe he would have done that in that hypothetical situation.

The more salient issue to focus on is how those three young players develop over the season to allow for more flexibility by Hurley to allow for time reduction to players who are not performing in a manner he wants.

 

[ctchamps]

He’ll learn to play within his means once Hurley adopts the quick hook.

Bad shots, dumb turnovers = bench

I'm beginning to wonder if I watched the same game as you and others in this thread. I went to the official play by play when I made post #45 in this thread. You can watch the replay of the game and see the visual results of that play by play. He employed the quick hook. Three times in the Indiana game that I'm aware of. If accuracy is important in making baskets, it should also be important in describing events.

Bad observations, dumb statements = The Boneyard

 

[CL82]

Every time I read senior guards I think:

 

[superjohn]

You indicated you would review the game regarding the foul situation with Alterique. You might also iso on the play of Brendan, Jalen and James prior to inserting Christian back in the game to run point. It's less Hurley doesn't know what to do then his options were limited that game. I went to great lengths in post #45 to show that Hurley is both aware of things you point out, equally upset about those points, and took action in the second half to send the message. If you believe it wasn't enough of a message I'll have to disagree with you. It was a tight very important game, still winnable, and the bench was a no show. To give up the season this early because he was frustrated with the older players would be grounds for his contract to be terminated. If the game was a blow out against us I most certainly would agree with you and wished he sat them down for the half. But I believe he would have done that in that hypothetical situation.

The more salient issue to focus on is how those three young players develop over the season to allow for more flexibility by Hurley to allow for time reduction to players who are not performing in a manner he wants.

No, I don't think it was enough of a message and I disagree with the pychology/theory that benching CV would be forfeiting the game and giving up on the season, I see it as the exact opposite...sticking with CV is the reason we lost the game and we would have been better off with him on the bench.

Again, Alterique can't really be benched because we need his ballhandling and breakdown ability. When Vital is going bad like that I don't want him near the court let alone playing point guard. When CV and AG are both going bad they basically give away any chance we have at winning.

The way this team is going to reach it's potential is Alterique being a facilitator and Bouknight, Carlton, Akok, and Polley taking the bulk of our shots. Vital plays hard and rebounds great for a guard but he's probably the biggest giveth and taketh away player I've seen. His style of basketball is not conducive to winning and the progress of a team with some serious young talent....

He can be a really valuable piece if he would just play his role but he has never really shown he's capable of that. If his role continues to be the guy with the most minutes on the team and the most shot attempts it will be on Hurley....I don't see how you win this way.