Our Senior Guards

[ctchamps]

He's aware of it, I agree. I think he's hoping they'll figure it out but they're not making it easy on him. How many steaming piles will it take? Looks like more than three.

He's aware and he acted on it. See post #45 where I point out play by play the actions he took in the second half of the Indiana game.

 

[superjohn]

He's aware and he acted on it. See post #45 where I point out play by play the actions he took in the second half of the Indiana game.

I don't think he's figured out who CV is at all yet. He had him running point and he played the second most minutes on the team after Josh. When he's going like that he'll cost you games which he did the other night.

 

[JustbrewitMan]

Agree with most of what you wrote. Disagree with Hurley's management of CV. Indiana's up 36-31 when Christian takes a quick 3 pt shot at 16:29 remaining. Hurley pulls him out and CV sits until 11:18 remaining with Indiana leading 38 -36 .

From 16:29 until 14:58 Indiana increases the lead to 38-31. CV is still benched.

Additionally for those making statements about Hurley's double standards with upperclassmen:

Tyler Polley takes a quick 3 pt shot at 13:42. Hurley subs him out for Bouknight at 13:40 with Indiana leading 35-31. Tyler is subbed back in with 7:51 remaining with the score 40-38 Indiana.
Gilbert takes a quick 3 at 11:20 and is subbed out at 11:18 for Christian with the score 38-36 Indiana. Alterique is subbed back in at 9:53 with the score tied at 38.

In spite of the same bad play Hurley only seats Al for one minute and 27 seconds. He recognizes, as do you and several of us, the critical need to keep Alterique in the game. Of those three players taking the type of shots that Hurley obviously emphasized not to take at halftime (and the type of shots that the brilliant Boneyarders point out but not so brilliantly observe Hurley's awareness and actions), Polley was kept on the bench the longest while CV was benched less than Polley and more than Alterique. I'm sure he would have preferred benching them all equally but chose to put them back based on relative contributions. It's an action by a coach trying to deal with the immediate situation of winning an important game with sending a long term message that things need to change.

Mods, please delete this post. We don’t want any objective evidence refuting the tired narratives that:

-Hurley will do anything to be loved by his players including purposefully leaving them in after bad decisions
-Hurley only does hockey line substitutions

 

[Excalibur]

Mods, please delete this post. We don’t want any objective evidence refuting the tired narratives that:

-Hurley will do anything to be loved by his players including purposefully leaving them in after bad decisions
-Hurley only does hockey line substitutions

Just wait. We're soon to hear that Hurley is holding Bouknight back because he's afraid of him leaving after this year . . .

 

[CTBasketball]

He’ll learn to play within his means once Hurley adopts the quick hook.

Bad shots, dumb turnovers = bench

 

[BuffaloHusky]

He’ll learn to play within his means once Hurley adopts the quick hook.

Bad shots, dumb turnovers = bench

That applies to Carlton as well but I think a better solution is not starting him at all yet continuing to give him starter minutes. I've made the argument before that we may be better starting IW (or Akok at the 5) instead of JC for three primary reasons:

1) IW's consistent energy and effort
2) it limits early JC fouls
3) most importantly: it eliminates at least one unforced turnover in the opening minutes trying to get JC involved in the game

The bigger consequence though is it may open the floor and prevent the clutter on the court that leads to the guards turnovers.

 

[ctchamps]

I don't think he's figured out who CV is at all yet. He had him running point and he played the second most minutes on the team after Josh. When he's going like that he'll cost you games which he did the other night.

You indicated you would review the game regarding the foul situation with Alterique. You might also iso on the play of Brendan, Jalen and James prior to inserting Christian back in the game to run point. It's less Hurley doesn't know what to do then his options were limited that game. I went to great lengths in post #45 to show that Hurley is both aware of things you point out, equally upset about those points, and took action in the second half to send the message. If you believe it wasn't enough of a message I'll have to disagree with you. It was a tight very important game, still winnable, and the bench was a no show. To give up the season this early because he was frustrated with the older players would be grounds for his contract to be terminated. If the game was a blow out against us I most certainly would agree with you and wished he sat them down for the half. But I believe he would have done that in that hypothetical situation.

The more salient issue to focus on is how those three young players develop over the season to allow for more flexibility by Hurley to allow for time reduction to players who are not performing in a manner he wants.

 

[ctchamps]

He’ll learn to play within his means once Hurley adopts the quick hook.

Bad shots, dumb turnovers = bench

I'm beginning to wonder if I watched the same game as you and others in this thread. I went to the official play by play when I made post #45 in this thread. You can watch the replay of the game and see the visual results of that play by play. He employed the quick hook. Three times in the Indiana game that I'm aware of. If accuracy is important in making baskets, it should also be important in describing events.

Bad observations, dumb statements = The Boneyard

 

[CL82]

Every time I read senior guards I think:

 

[superjohn]

You indicated you would review the game regarding the foul situation with Alterique. You might also iso on the play of Brendan, Jalen and James prior to inserting Christian back in the game to run point. It's less Hurley doesn't know what to do then his options were limited that game. I went to great lengths in post #45 to show that Hurley is both aware of things you point out, equally upset about those points, and took action in the second half to send the message. If you believe it wasn't enough of a message I'll have to disagree with you. It was a tight very important game, still winnable, and the bench was a no show. To give up the season this early because he was frustrated with the older players would be grounds for his contract to be terminated. If the game was a blow out against us I most certainly would agree with you and wished he sat them down for the half. But I believe he would have done that in that hypothetical situation.

The more salient issue to focus on is how those three young players develop over the season to allow for more flexibility by Hurley to allow for time reduction to players who are not performing in a manner he wants.

No, I don't think it was enough of a message and I disagree with the pychology/theory that benching CV would be forfeiting the game and giving up on the season, I see it as the exact opposite...sticking with CV is the reason we lost the game and we would have been better off with him on the bench.

Again, Alterique can't really be benched because we need his ballhandling and breakdown ability. When Vital is going bad like that I don't want him near the court let alone playing point guard. When CV and AG are both going bad they basically give away any chance we have at winning.

The way this team is going to reach it's potential is Alterique being a facilitator and Bouknight, Carlton, Akok, and Polley taking the bulk of our shots. Vital plays hard and rebounds great for a guard but he's probably the biggest giveth and taketh away player I've seen. His style of basketball is not conducive to winning and retards the progress of a team with some serious young talent....

He can be a really valuable piece if he would just play his role but he has never really shown he's capable of that. If his role continues to be the guy with the most minutes on the team and the most shot attempts it will be on Hurley....I don't see how you win this way.

 

[David 76]

I don't know Fleud. There was a long stretch where CV was terrible and I was screaming at the tv for Hurley to take him out. They/he could not get the ball up the court and he kept him running point. It was malpractice.

 

[jibsey]

We can be a dynamic team when Gilbert plays well and I thought he turned a corner but what is obvious now is that he can’t sustain it. It would be OK with a great 2 guard but we have Vital who is also up and down. It’s going to be a frustrating year unless Hurley can figure something out. We really needed a great decent sized point guard who can shoot. Not much to ask.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

And demoralize the rest of the team. I've given Hurley some slack on this, I understood his concern about losing these two. After last night, I don't care about that anymore. Quick hook after the first selfish chuck, whether it goes in or not.

It's December 12th, 9 games into the season, and youvre claiming that Vital is "killing the season" AND any more of that, and it's on Hurley.

Now THAT'S demoralizing.

Nobody's playing defense on you, there's no clock to pressure you, and you have many more years of experience.

Is it unreasonable to expect that coaches, players, and fans all have room for improvement? If it's so easy to change, then be the example.

 

[Waquoit]

Nobody's playing defense on you, there's no clock to pressure you, and you have many more years of experience.

When he shoots too much we lose. He needs too stop shooting so much.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

When he shoots too much we lose. He needs too stop shooting so much.

I do not disagree with that Rx.
His 2 made shots got recorded in txts as "Bad shot YESS." That's a very bitter pill.

I just don't buy into the high drama of certain posts, because they strike me as equally harmful as bad shot choices & bad coaching decisions to the overall 'entertainment product' that gathers us in this forum.

Every season has its arc. Nobody should shoot prematurely. We need the mojo.

9-3 was what most were looking for, and NIT was the predominant prediction. That's reason enough not to be so hysterical that we aren't a game or two better, simply because it has seemed so available, and because the things that frustrate us the most seem like the reasons why the games weren't won.

After the Iona game, DH said, "In the past, we would have lost this game." If you watch the game again, you will see how that makes sense. And it was an 18-point victory.

Sacred Heart, Buffalo, Miami, Maine, and Iona could ALL have been undistinguished wins (maybe even a loss) that would give us concern, so it's clear that there's a shift.

Xavier & Indiana reveal that the second needed shift is not there yet. BOTH looked like they could have been 25 point losses, and we had a recent season when we witnessed multiple 20-25+ losses. We fans are still in collective recovery from this horror.

My txt at 54-47 was that "First team to 55 wins." That left zero margin for error. They needed to pitch a shutout, and got close.

Calhoun's teams had that "Just say No" strength to not give up the lead. With very few exceptions, we haven't seen that since 2014.

The game was equally lost on turnovers, missed free throws, and failed defensive stands. It's a lot to work on. It was labeled as much after the St Joe's debacle.

The job is to be in the situation where the dreaded bad last plays are not necessary.

You may turn out to be right that things won't get righted, but I'm not ready to future-worry like that. I expect 3 good wins to close the December, and theteby consolidate a lot of learning. After that, it's applying what's learned. I hope it works.

 

[ctchamps]

No, I don't think it was enough of a message and I disagree with the pychology/theory that benching CV would be forfeiting the game and giving up on the season, I see it as the exact opposite...sticking with CV is the reason we lost the game and we would have been better off with him on the bench.

Again, Alterique can't really be benched because we need his ballhandling and breakdown ability. When Vital is going bad like that I don't want him near the court let alone playing point guard. When CV and AG are both going bad they basically give away any chance we have at winning.

The way this team is going to reach it's potential is Alterique being a facilitator and Bouknight, Carlton, Akok, and Polley taking the bulk of our shots. Vital plays hard and rebounds great for a guard but he's probably the biggest giveth and taketh away player I've seen. His style of basketball is not conducive to winning and retards the progress of a team with some serious young talent....

He can be a really valuable piece if he would just play his role but he has never really shown he's capable of that. If his role continues to be the guy with the most minutes on the team and the most shot attempts it will be on Hurley....I don't see how you win this way.

Just for clarification I don't disagree with your premise of how CV needs to play and be utilized in the future. My disagreement is exclusively about his utilization in the Indiana game particularly the statement I highlighted.

Are you saying CV shouldn't have played in the Indiana game? At least indicate what option would have been better based on what players were doing in that game. As far as I could tell the only non starter who played well enough to earn minutes in that game was Sid and he would have been a bigger disaster running the point than CV or playing him with a lineup of Alterique, Akok, Josh and Tyler. Hypothetically Adams, Bouknight or Gaffney could have played better if CV had not played at all in that game but that can't be proven nor was it likely based on what we saw in the minutes they did play.

Our biggest lead was after a jumper made by Christian to put the team up 26-16 with 5:16 remaining in the first half. In that period Christian had two assists, a 3pt fg, that jumper, one steal, two turnovers, 3 D rebounds and two missed threes. He was responsible for more than a third of the scoring. The wheels came off of the bus for CV and the team when both Akok and Gilbert got two fouls.

CV missed a 3 pointer, Brendan fouled, Josh had a turnover, Christian made one of two FTs, Christian TO, Christian steal and fouled, Christian misses the front end of a 1-1, Bouknight TO, D rebound by Adams, TO by Christian, foul by Tyler, missed jumper by Al, TO by Christian, missed 3 pt by Al, O rebound by Christian followed by assist to Josh, missed 3 pt by Tyler.

CV's 3 To's and the missed FT's in those last five minutes were huge. But he only took one shot. No one else was doing anything in that span. The whole team should have been benched those last five minutes of the first half and Hurley and Taliek should have suited up.