OT: Yanks $2 Bill player salary since 2010

[the Q]

Not really better pitching. That's the difference, Cashman hasn't met the requirements to win series vs strong pitching staffs. We just saw it again along with the fact they have way too many .230 hitters with the long ball or nothing. They certainly haven't been as competitive as the Yanks in the 2010's.

They also didn’t have good defense.

Really the starters just got absurdly hot and Murphy went bonkers until the WS.

 

[JustbrewitMan]

Insomnia is a funny thing… I clicked on this thread expecting to read about some obscure Yankees player taking a two dollar salary for the last nine years to be a part of the team…

 

[ZenConn]

Salary floor would further hurt small-mid market teams. They would be forced to sign middle of the road FA at inflated salaries to meet an arbitrary floor that would then cause them to be cash strapped to extend their cost controlled players or to make a run at a marquee FA when their stars align and they have that 2-3 year window to make a run.

There are only about 4 teams in baseball who can operate like the Yankees and they are all large market teams who have billion $$ regional sports market deals and the ability to absorb $300 million mistakes. A small/ mid market makes that mistake it sets the franchise back 8 years

Yeah I see where you are coming from. Nevertheless, I'd like to see the teams not tank and put their revenue sharing money back into the team instead of the owners pocketing them.

Perhaps change it to a 154 game schedule and have it like soccer where the worse teams are demoted to AAA.

 

[storrsroars]

Every single one can afford at least a 9 figure payroll.

And they could easily sign those middle of the road FAs to one year deals. Zero long term risk.

Point #1 may be true. Point #2 is simply a bad idea.

I don't know if I even care how much a management group makes. I do care that they are essentially stewards of something akin to a public trust in their cities.

One of the positives about MLB has long been that it's been an affordable ticket to most fans, unlike every other major sport. A floor would increase ticket prices as a starting point while not addressing competitiveness.

Point #2 also ignores the current compensation system, which widely available analytics conclusively shows the value of players and is skewed very heavily to those in pre-arb/arb situations who can't test free agency. There are very few post-arb "superstars" worth their salaries. Somehow, that needs to be addressed with either shorter terms of team control or earlier qualification for arbitration or both.

Additionally, and this is certainly a sore point for us in Pittsburgh, there needs to be something like an "anti-luxury tax" that would still allow a team to "tank" for a year, but would have some sort of 3-to-5 year rolling average on "competitiveness" that would dictate how much revenue sharing a team gets. That would reward better management. And if an ownership group fails to meet competitiveness standards repeatedly (term tbd), then MLB will step in and take control.

Whatever happens in the next CBA, the MLBPA can't be shortsighted in just promoting the interests of its veteran membership, most of whom aren't worth their salaries. Compensation for minor leaguers, draft compensation, and compensation especially players in their first six years needs to be the primary focus.

Speaking as a Pirates fan, let's not forget it was a big market team (Red Sox) who forced a change to the draft because a small market team (Pirates) actually did spend significant $$ on the draft, outspending every other team in MLB for several years before the "draft pool" was instituted. See Bell, Josh.

 

[the Q]

Point #1 may be true. Point #2 is simply a bad idea.

I don't know if I even care how much a management group makes. I do care that they are essentially stewards of something akin to a public trust in their cities.

One of the positives about MLB has long been that it's been an affordable ticket to most fans, unlike every other major sport. A floor would increase ticket prices as a starting point while not addressing competitiveness.

Point #2 also ignores the current compensation system, which, with widely available analytics conclusive shows the value of players and is skewed very heavily to those in pre-arb/arb situations who can't test free agency. There are very few post-arb "superstars" worth their salaries. Somehow, that needs to be addressed with either shorter terms of team control or earlier qualification for arbitration or both.

Additionally, and this is certainly a sore point for us in Pittsburgh, there needs to be something like an "anti-luxury tax" that would still allow a team to "tank" for a year, but would have some sort of 3-to-5 year rolling average on "competitiveness" that would dictate how much revenue sharing a team gets. That would reward better management. And if an ownership group fails to meet competitiveness standards repeatedly (term tbd), then MLB will step in and take control.

Whatever happens in the next CBA, the MLBPA can't be shortsighted in just promoting the interests of its veteran membership, most of whom aren't worth their salaries. Compensation for minor leaguers, draft compensation, and compensation especially players in their first six years needs to be the primary focus.

Speaking as a Pirates fan, let's not forget it was a big market team (Red Sox) who forced a change to the draft because a small market team (Pirates) actually did spend significant $$ on the draft, outspending every other team in MLB for several years before the "draft pool" was instituted. See Bell, Josh.

Yup and I said it was stupid long term.

It gives you less access to talent (as Keith law infamously said, mlb and mlbpa basically are telling foreign players to go play soccer), and only hurt the small market teams.

But the small market teams always claimed they were spending their revenue sharing on amateur talent, now they don’t have that excuse. So it needs to go to talent.

 

[the Q]

Point #1 may be true. Point #2 is simply a bad idea.

I don't know if I even care how much a management group makes. I do care that they are essentially stewards of something akin to a public trust in their cities.

One of the positives about MLB has long been that it's been an affordable ticket to most fans, unlike every other major sport. A floor would increase ticket prices as a starting point while not addressing competitiveness.

Point #2 also ignores the current compensation system, which, with widely available analytics conclusive shows the value of players and is skewed very heavily to those in pre-arb/arb situations who can't test free agency. There are very few post-arb "superstars" worth their salaries. Somehow, that needs to be addressed with either shorter terms of team control or earlier qualification for arbitration or both.

Additionally, and this is certainly a sore point for us in Pittsburgh, there needs to be something like an "anti-luxury tax" that would still allow a team to "tank" for a year, but would have some sort of 3-to-5 year rolling average on "competitiveness" that would dictate how much revenue sharing a team gets. That would reward better management. And if an ownership group fails to meet competitiveness standards repeatedly (term tbd), then MLB will step in and take control.

Whatever happens in the next CBA, the MLBPA can't be shortsighted in just promoting the interests of its veteran membership, most of whom aren't worth their salaries. Compensation for minor leaguers, draft compensation, and compensation especially players in their first six years needs to be the primary focus.

Speaking as a Pirates fan, let's not forget it was a big market team (Red Sox) who forced a change to the draft because a small market team (Pirates) actually did spend significant $$ on the draft, outspending every other team in MLB for several years before the "draft pool" was instituted. See Bell, Josh.

Minor league compensation should not be. That has no effect on mlb players. It’s not the mlbpa’s job to address that.

Teams need to invest in the product.

Give extensions or something. But you can’t keep crying Poverty with all the money flowing in. Maybe you should sell your team then.

 

[storrsroars]

Yup and I said it was stupid long term.

It gives you less access to talent (as Keith law infamously said, mlb and mlbpa basically are telling foreign players to go play soccer), and only hurt the small market teams.

But the small market teams always claimed they were spending their revenue sharing on amateur talent, now they don’t have that excuse ability. So it needs to go to talent overpaid marginal players.

The above edits provide a typical Pirates fan view of this. Which is not to excuse the buffoonish moves our FO has made the past four years. But changing the draft to the current pool money concept took away a competitive advantage from small market teams.

 

[the Q]

The above edits provide a typical Pirates fan view of this. Which is not to excuse the buffoonish moves our FO has made the past four years. But changing the draft to the current pool money concept took away a competitive advantage from small market teams.

No, they do have he ability. Every team can handle a 9 figure payroll.

They chose not to.

 

[storrsroars]

Minor league compensation should not be. That has no effect on mlb players. It’s not the mlbpa’s job to address that.

Teams need to invest in the product.

Give extensions or something. But you can’t keep crying Poverty with all the money flowing in. Maybe you should sell your team then.

You'd have a hard time finding a Pirates fan who does not want Nutting to sell the team. I guess you didn't read the back half of my earlier post.

I recognize that the BY is 95% Yankees/Red Sox fans. Let me assure you that when the Pirates were actually competitive from 2013-2015, every fan wanted to spend an additional $10-$25 mill on annual salary to improve on the existing team.

But forcing a bad team to spend $100 million just to sign a bunch of underperforming players is kind of silly. As a huge baseball fan, it would actually make me angry (much like the Archer trade did).

We're having an interesting situation develop here due to the PNC Park contract terms being discussed openly, with the possibility of our mayor/city council able to view all the financials, which would probably mean those financials would be made public. The lawyers are fighting as we speak.

 

[storrsroars]

No, they do have he ability. Every team can handle a 9 figure payroll.

They chose not to.

I see you're simply choosing to be obtuse here.

 

[ZenConn]

Over $2 Billion spent on player salaries with no titles to show for. That is an amazing amount of money for one organization to spend. Crazy

The Yankees’ Decade of Almost: $2 Billion Spent, Zero Titles Won

The 2010s for the Yankees were a success by every measure—that is, except for the only one their fans actually care about: winning the World Series.

www.wsj.com

Well Kansas hasn't won in 11 years and Arizona hasn't won in 22. Perspective!

 

[the Q]

I see you're simply choosing to be obtuse here.

no. You did ability. Ability implies they can’t or wouldn’t be profitable. That’s incorrect.
They are choosing to bake in their profits and be mediocre rather than attempt a successful product and get more from being competitive

 

[storrsroars]

no. You did ability. Ability implies they can’t or wouldn’t be profitable. That’s incorrect.
They are choosing to bake in their profits and be mediocre rather than attempt a successful product and get more from being competitive

Now you're going all Mulvaney, lol.

Let's look at the context again:

But the small market teams always claimed they were spending their revenue sharing on amateur talent, now they don’t have that excuse ability. So it needs to go to talent overpaid marginal players.

Please explain how small market teams still have the ability to spend more than large market teams on amateur talent. The "pool money" scheme promoted by the Red Sox and other large market teams eliminated that.

I'll follow up with this: 2011 MLB Draft: Pirates Shatter Draft Spending Record

What did $17 million buy in FA in 2011 that was a better investment than Cole and Bell?

You're arguing that teams need to pay premiums for mediocre talent just to spend the money. I'm arguing that investments have to be made to improve competitiveness, but I don't care if it's amateur or pro.

Regarding your point on extensions. The Pirates have done that and have been mostly successful (McCutchen, Marte, Polanco). But that was also several years ago before salaries for even mediocre players became stupid. We're finally starting to see push back on that from owners unwilling to sign marginal players in the offseason until prices come down. When the FA market finally starts to price itself according to WAR performance/projections instead of comps based on service time, you'll see the extension market explode across the board.

 

[Husky25]

Ownership of both the Yankees and the Sox have, in very recent years, made a fuss about needing to cut costs and get underneath the salary cap - despite the fact that both franchises essentially print money.

Heck, in the last month the Sox have signaled that they may trade their greatest homegrown player in decades (Betts) and/or choose not to pick up the option of the best (non-Trout) AL slugger over the last 2 years (JD Martinez). At least the other owners are honest about what they're trying to do: make as much money as possible while giving up the least amount of power and control to the players.

Before the Sox made their signal, Betts signaled that he is intent on going to free agency, which is a Boras client's MO. JD Martinez's option is not on the team. It's his.

 

[Husky25]

I didn’t get into this with my previous post but 100% agree. In then NBA, 19yos can make $7 million a year, then, what, $30 mil by the time they’re 23? In baseball, 19yos are making 5k a month riding a bus between Aberdeen, MD and Staten Island in Short Season A, then if they’re lucky to get called up at 23, make maybe $800k that first year, and no big payday chance until arb years are used up at 29-30. The entire system must be revamped to give the players more financial freedom. I get baseball is losing ground to NFL/NBA, but this ain’t Major League Lacrosse. Make things better for minor leaguers (which I know is in the works) and create more opportunity for MLB players to get what they’re worth, so they don’t get backed into contracts like Jose Ramirez or Ozzie Albies.

Apples and oranges.

In basketball 19 year olds can compete right away with 27 year olds. Put a college freshman in the batters box vs. Noah Syndergaard and 99/100 times, he's not worth the $5k/month he would be making in the bus leagues. They need that time.

It's also out of context. Only the top of the NFL draft gets that type of money. Minimum Salary in the G-League is $7,000/month or $35,000/season.

 

[the Q]

Now you're going all Mulvaney, lol.

Let's look at the context again:



Please explain how small market teams still have the ability to spend more than large market teams on amateur talent. The "pool money" scheme promoted by the Red Sox and other large market teams eliminated that.

I'll follow up with this: 2011 MLB Draft: Pirates Shatter Draft Spending Record

What did $17 million buy in FA in 2011 that was a better investment than Cole and Bell?

You're arguing that teams need to pay premiums for mediocre talent just to spend the money. I'm arguing that investments have to be made to improve competitiveness, but I don't care if it's amateur or pro.

Regarding your point on extensions. The Pirates have done that and have been mostly successful (McCutchen, Marte, Polanco). But that was also several years ago before salaries for even mediocre players became stupid. We're finally starting to see push back on that from owners unwilling to sign marginal players in the offseason until prices come down. When the FA market finally starts to price itself according to WAR performance/projections instead of comps based on service time, you'll see the extension market explode across the board.

i get yo ur point about 2011 draft. I’m saying they can’t do that anymore so where is that money going since it’s clearly not going to the on-field talent.

 

[methodology]

i get yo ur point about 2011 draft. I’m saying they can’t do that anymore so where is that money going since it’s clearly not going to the on-field talent.

It's being used setting up international scouting and training camps across the Dominican republic and central/ south America. It's also used so when those small-mid market teams have that short window to go all in they can make a run and throw a huge offer at 1-2 big pieces in FA or afford to make a trade for a team trying to offload a big contract

Being a .500 team and spending $100+ mil just to spend is the worst running of way to run a team in baseball. Not every team can operate like the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, angels, red Sox

You have still ignored why you guys are complaining about not using the luxury tax money but don't want to share your regional sports network revenue

 

[UConNick]

Apples and oranges.

In basketball 19 year olds can compete right away with 27 year olds. Put a college freshman in the batters box vs. Noah Syndergaard and 99/100 times, he's not worth the $5k/month he would be making in the bus leagues. They need that time.

It's also out of context. Only the top of the NFL draft gets that type of money. Minimum Salary in the G-League is $7,000/month or $35,000/season.

The minor league thing was a separate issue. They shouldn't have to endure all that while making next to nothing, which is why I'm happy there's reform coming. I can imagine that MiLB makes considerably more money than the G-League, so I don't necessarily buy that point. Salaries should be better for these younger players, even if it's not a million a year. They shouldn't have to worry about other jobs during the offseason.

Fair enough on the Syndergaard point, though. I've always felt a sense of pride in being a former baseball player and the sheer time it takes to go from amateur ball to the MLB, and just how talented those players that make it are. But why do MLB players have to wait until they're 30 years old for their payday? Rookie contracts/Arb years are what they are, but why does that coveted second contract have to come so late for baseball players? In the NBA, people are making $30 million after three years of playing. Under the current system Aaron Judge theoretically (I know, he'd make a good amount in Arb and will probably in reality sign a massive extension before 2023) won't be able to see that money or move teams until he's 31, after SIX full years at the highest level. Perhaps there should be a reworking of how team control works, so that those second contracts for baseball can come sooner and the players can have more years of prime earning. But I suppose service time manipulation is a separate though related issue.

 

[Rocktheworld]

 

[Scoe]

Like the article starts at 2010 now what happened in 2009?

 

[Husky25]

The minor league thing was a separate issue. They shouldn't have to endure all that while making next to nothing, which is why I'm happy there's reform coming. I can imagine that MiLB makes considerably more money than the G-League, so I don't necessarily buy that point. Salaries should be better for these younger players, even if it's not a million a year. They shouldn't have to worry about other jobs during the offseason.

Disagree. It wasn't so long ago that low level Major Leaguers had off season jobs.

 

[Husky25]

Like the article starts at 2010 now what happened in 2009?

2009 did not occur in the 2010s decade.

 

[methodology]

Disagree. It wasn't so long ago that low level Major Leaguers had off season jobs.

They still do. They have to pay for their own meals also (they get $25/ day per diem) and often live with host families

Unless you're a high draft pick with large signing bonus you live a horrible life grinding to make it

Minor leaguers keep pinching pennies as wage lawsuit continues

To thread the needle of paying for adult life on a minor league baseball salary, Geoff Hartlieb turns to an Excel spreadsheet on his iPad. On it, he tracks...

www.post-gazette.com

According to MLB, the average salary for minor league players in 2017 ranged from $10,000 a month for Class AAA, right below the majors, to $1,100 per month in short-season or rookie leagues. Federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour, equaling $15,080 a year for a 40-hour work week.

 

[The Viking]

Speaking as a Pirates fan, let's not forget it was a big market team (Red Sox) who forced a change to the draft because a small market team (Pirates) actually did spend significant $$ on the draft, outspending every other team in MLB for several years before the "draft pool" was instituted. See Bell, Josh.

Do you have a link for this?
I find it hard to believe that the Red Sox - who loved to splurge in the amateur draft while some teams didn't want to go after high bonus guys - would push for a policy that would HURT the Red Sox.
If they pushed for this, that's really short-sighted on their part just because of what Pittsburgh did.

 

[CTBasketball]

Yankees lacked a leadoff hitter to go out and swipe 30-40 bags a year. If all these Stanton trade rumors are true they should prioritize to this and starting pitching.

As @mauconnfan stated earlier, way too many one dimensional .230 power hitters.

 

[David 76]

Silly article. Find an anomaly and build a story out of it.
What does the $2 billion compare to? Sox, Dodgers, Cubs....And look at the trends. Yankees have been reducing payroll.
Not to mention, has there ever been another team to make it to the World Series every decade for a hundred years? Or win more than 25% of the World Series in a century? So the only way the Yankees are lacking is in comparison to themselves.
The article's words " not even an appearance in the world series in ten years" in and of itself is stupid. Let's make a list of every team's decades without "even appearing" in a World Series.
This whole overdone topic speaks to Yankee greatness and how much even our detractor's see us on another level.

 

[Cheddie]

Good thing the Yankees as of late focus on their farm system and situational free agent adds (with Edwin and Stanton being the outliers here). It’s a better strategy than buying everything.

Well, the FA strategy worked for George. One factor today is that MLB is much more strict about drugs, including things like amphetamines, putting a premium on natural athleticism, and making older players (often the guys George liked) less valuable.

 

[Cheddie]

It’d be pretty cool if all the team owners that get tens of millions in luxury tax payouts and revenue sharing invested all that money into their squads instead of pocketing it and calling themselves too destitute to compete. Say what you will about Yankee or Red Sox ownership but at least they want to win instead of simply turn a personal profit.

And NY has never tanked like some teams - um, Houston 51-111 record back in 2013 - and have been, more or less, competitive every year. When you get to the ALCS, sometimes a single pitch or hit can put you over that hurdle.

 

[Caronimo]

The roster next year is going to scare people. It’s time for aggressive moves.

 

[NJHusky]

Problem is that Hal is not George...he's more concerned about the budget than winning World Series. George would have never let Keuchel get to Atlanta or Corbin to the Phillies over a few million.....and the Yanks wouldn't have been forced to over work the pen ALL season.

The halcyon days are over for the Yanks...they might win on occasion and Hal will be fine with that...as long as they are on budget.

He's basically a more generous version of Wilpon IMO