OT: walking dead

[Dogdeacon]

Sure, the plan wasn’t to kill them. They realized the problem was the Gov and a few of his henchmen, not the general population of Woodbury. I’m sure they would have wanted the Gov dead, but mostly they wanted to run them off. As Michonne said (again do you follow the series??), they didn’t have to win, just make it too much trouble for the Woodburians to be worth it. They succeeded.

Don’t know that they didn’t. But again, I think their plan was to drive them off. Going back here and putting 2+2+2 together. They realized Merle’s attack had taken out most of the Gov’s real fighters. The group he was coming with where mostly just a bunch of townies that really hadn’t even had to kill too many walkers lately. Let alone fight against someone who was firing back at them. A large majority had never been under fire.

I pointed out annoying micro-details to illustrate in a painstaking manner that I may watch the show, I don't really care about the toes or shell casing just noticed it for milliseconds of distraction. You have to resort to the do you watch the show crap because Milton was a character designed only to die. He wasn't developed. No backstory, no actual role other than interaction with governor as an extra boost to the nonsensical why his daughter was still alive. The guy did a nice job dying, that's it.

Even if you buy the wafer thin theory to scare Woodburians;
A. they still have massive resources/firepower and at least 3 bada$$es - what does Rick have (4 tops?!)
B. Yes Michonne (& maybe others behind the scenes) says scare them and why kill all of the citiizens, but they know/agree at all costs (otherwise risking their own lives) need to cut off the head of the snake. They HAD to have thought that unless they kill the Gov there is a problem = why they chased back after them. = Why they should have trapped them, slashed their tires, manned or jammed their guns etc..

Perhaps Kirkman is over illustrating that people can be as bad or worse than Zombies. Both as killing machines & brainless strolling towards whatever. Therefore the Governor runs into dark prison walkways with no plan beyond separating into teams but Rick's group is now human again because they made a genius plan to win the war without killing anyone.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Even if you buy the wafer thin theory to scare Woodburians;
A. they still have massive resources/firepower and at least 3 bada$$es - what does Rick have (4 tops?!)
B. Yes Michonne (& maybe others behind the scenes) says scare them and why kill all of the citiizens, but they know/agree at all costs (otherwise risking their own lives) need to cut off the head of the snake. They HAD to have thought that unless they kill the Gov there is a problem = why they chased back after them. = Why they should have trapped them, slashed their tires, manned or jammed their guns etc..

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. It seems like A is saying that it's ridiculous the governor's troops ran when they had significantly more man and firepower than Rick's group. And then B is that Rick's group should have slashed their tires and trapped them? If I'm understanding that correctly (and I very well may not be), those two would seem to go against each other.

 

[meyers7]

You have to resort to the do you watch the show crap because Milton was a character designed only to die

No I resort to the “do you watch the show crap” because you keep bringing up stuff that the show has pretty plainly covered. And Milton’s character was not only designed to die (not that there is anything wrong with that, many characters are designed for that….see the red shirts they wear), but also to be part of the Gov’s inner circle. A sounding board for him. Also he ended up being the Gov’s weapon to kill Andrea. He was also the one who finally turned Andrea around and he himself turned on the Gov. A lot there you missed.

Even if you buy the wafer thin theory to scare Woodburians;

I’m not saying that was their whole reasoning. Obviously they knew they had to get rid of the Gov. Possibly Martinez too. Although I think Daryl realized he was just a Lt. doing what he was told. If Martinez was in charge, there may not be a problem. Debatable, not sure which way the show would have went there. But anyway, if they ended up killing Woodburians to get the Gov, I don’t think they would have worried too much about that. However if they could kill the Gov with little loss to the Woodburians, they would probably prefer that. If they could just make them go away without any loss of life on their part (Rick’s group), that would be the best scenario. Setting up the Woodburians to slaughter them was not their objective.

. they still have massive resources/firepower and at least 3 bada$$es - what does Rick have (4 tops?!)

Well let’s see. There’s Rick, Daryl, Michonne as probably the bad@sses, but Glenn, Maggie and Hershel (besides his mobility) are much more seasoned than any of the others the Gov had after Martinez, Shupert and Allen (and really Allen was more on the level of Glenn and Maggie). And Carl and even Carol really could hold their own against anyone the Gov had after those 3. It’s just the Gov had about 20+ on that level for fodder.
Agreed though the Gov had more firepower, weaponry wise for sure.

Yes Michonne (& maybe others behind the scenes) says scare them and why kill all of the citiizens, but they know/agree at all costs (otherwise risking their own lives) need to cut off the head of the snake. They HAD to have thought that unless they kill the Gov there is a problem

Yes. That’s pretty much what I have been saying. Although it would probably be easier to kill the Gov separated from his horde of people.

Why they should have trapped them, slashed their tires, manned or jammed their guns etc

Not sure how you think they were going to accomplish this??? This would have been very tough to do without risk of life, which they were trying to avoid. And certainly wouldn't have been useful in trying to get the Woodburians away from the prison.

Perhaps Kirkman is over illustrating that people can be as bad or worse than Zombies

Maybe. That is one of the main themes of the Walking Dead.

Overall I think it worked out pretty well. No loss of life to the Grimes group. Main priority. Second priority, not losing the prison, third priority taking away the Gov’s advantage (superior numbers and weaponry) so as to prevent 1 and 2. Fourth priority would be to kill the Gov. to possibly prevent 1 and 2 (depending on what Martinez or Shupert would do). That was not completed. But, 3 out of 4 are not bad. Besides gives us #4 for next season.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Have you seen that Mazzera shot a different scene where Milton was strangling Andrea with a chain and then the Governor shot him dead? Then he attacks/eats Andrea as a Zombie but with glasses on. I think Tyrese and Rick kill Milton in that one, no Michonne Andrea final goodbye.

I think redo likely better as it was more tension even if it was at non-sensical expense of Andrea taking time to explain herself. I loved Kirkman's defense of Andrea's nonchalance "who knows how one would act in that stressful of a situation" - sounds just like you!

I listened to an interesting podcast this AM with creative head of FX network expounding on how he tries to stay out of the way of showrunners, would never fire one and thinks the only way to resolve creative differences is to hash them out. He said he's disagreed with showrunners, but step one is hash it out and if he can't convince his showrunner he'll let them go and fully support as he's done even with failures (obviously didn't say what). Overall theme was showrunner/writers do creative process well and networks don't so have to be very careful if/when giving notes.

Total blind speculation to draw conclusions about the Mazzera creative differences split. But my best guesses either;
1. Adding episodic horror suspense ala Milton-Andrea scene
2. Keeping Governor v Rick storyline after building towards confrontation for all of season 3 and then punting on it
3. Staying at prison

Looking like #2 as AMC went to the stupid length to announce that the homeless man's Liam Neeson would be back next season as a regular cast member. People are not going to be down for another season's central plotline as Rick's group vs the Governor, they have to be very careful. I think the new showrunner is up for it, but AMC HAS to get out of its own way.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Not sure how you think they were going to accomplish this??? This would have been very tough to do without risk of life, which they were trying to avoid. And certainly wouldn't have been useful in trying to get the Woodburians away from the prison.
.

Umm, shoot the Governor's vehicle's tires with their machine guns or say a crossbow - Woodbury-us Separatus 101.

 

[meyers7]

Umm, shoot the Governor's vehicle's tires with their machine guns or say a crossbow - Woodbury-us Separatus 101.

As you said they couldn't even hit the bunch of people when they were retreating.

A couple things. One, when would they have done that. If before they spring their surprise (flashbombs, alarms, walkers, etc.) it would have given their position away. If they did it as they were retreating they were being fired upon, not as easy to get good shots off. Also I still imagine, though they didn't show this, that the Gov left a couple guards at the vehicles. I think they would have noticed.

But, eh, if they would have wanted to go that way, I suppose they could have.

 

[meyers7]

Have you seen that Mazzera shot a different scene where Milton was strangling Andrea with a chain and then the Governor shot him dead? Then he attacks/eats Andrea as a Zombie but with glasses on. I think Tyrese and Rick kill Milton in that one, no Michonne Andrea final goodbye

I think I’ve seen stills on some of that. And on the Inside the Episode or Making of videos they had what looked like parts of it. In one interview they talked about going back and redoing the ending a different way than Mazzera wanted. But I haven't seen the whole thing.

I think redo likely better as it was more tension even if it was at non-sensical expense of Andrea taking time to explain herself. I loved Kirkman's defense of Andrea's nonchalance "who knows how one would act in that stressful of a situation" - sounds just like you!

I do like Kirkman’s interviews. He seems really down to earth and doesn’t take himself too seriously.

I listened to an interesting podcast this AM with creative head of FX network expounding on how he tries to stay out of the way of showrunners, would never fire one and thinks the only way to resolve creative differences is to hash them out. He said he's disagreed with showrunners, but step one is hash it out and if he can't convince his showrunner he'll let them go and fully support as he's done even with failures (obviously didn't say what). Overall theme was showrunner/writers do creative process well and networks don't so have to be very careful if/when giving notes.

I’ve read that AMC is not really that easy to work with.

Total blind speculation to draw conclusions about the Mazzera creative differences split. But my best guesses either;
1. Adding episodic horror suspense ala Milton-Andrea scene
2. Keeping Governor v Rick storyline after building towards confrontation for all of season 3 and then punting on it
3. Staying at prison

Yea, I would probably agree with that. Or at least it sounds reasonable. Everyone has said they were going in separate directions. Don’t know if that will be better or worse. But I have really like Gimple’s episodes. So….hopefully.

Looking like #2 as AMC went to the stupid length to announce that the homeless man's Liam Neeson would be back next season as a regular cast member. People are not going to be down for another season's central plotline as Rick's group vs the Governor, they have to be very careful. I think the new showrunner is up for it, but AMC HAS to get out of its own way.

Agreed they have to be careful. But they are still riding pretty high. They have plenty of story lines to work with. Build Tyreese and Michonne characters this next season. Carl vs Rick. I can see Hershel going away early next season. Maybe Glenn and/or Maggie later. Without Andrea, maybe Karen will become Rick’s love interest??? Maybe Michonne. Plus they have Daryl who they can do anything with, except kill him off.

 

[Deepster]

Just watched the finale. Watched Game of Thrones Sunday then have been traveling since Monday.

Rather anticlimactic for a finale, but was ecstatic Andrea is gone. While all of her scenes were typically painful, I did enjoy The Guv going full on postal and gunning down a bunch of Woodbury schoolmarms.

I thought before this episode and still do think that the prison is the best spot in a ZA. Interested to see where it goes from here.

 

[meyers7]

Just watched the finale. Watched Game of Thrones Sunday then have been traveling since Monday.

Rather anticlimactic for a finale, but was ecstatic Andrea is gone. While all of her scenes were typically painful, I did enjoy The Guv going full on postal and gunning down a bunch of Woodbury schoolmarms.

I thought before this episode and still do think that the prison is the best spot in a ZA. Interested to see where it goes from here.

They say it's always better to watch a finale than a premier.

It didn't leave a big cliffhanger (other than the Gov is still out there), but it did cover quite a bit of material. Tied up some things. Left others to next year and presented some new things/stories for next season.

I really did like the Gov gunning them down. Well played.

I've already figured out where the closest armory and prison are for when the real ZA happens.

 

[huskysupporter]

Decided to watch season 3 again. The first 3 episodes were fantastic . . . and then we got the governor/Andrea storyline. Although I was extremely dissapointed in Glen's character development in season 3 (I was a huge Glen fan during the first 2 seasons), I love Darryl's progression, especially after the baby was born. He really took on a leadership role.

 

[meyers7]

Decided to watch season 3 again. The first 3 episodes were fantastic . . . and then we got the governor/Andrea storyline. Although I was extremely dissapointed in Glen's character development in season 3 (I was a huge Glen fan during the first 2 seasons), I love Darryl's progression, especially after the baby was born. He really took on a leadership role.

Yea a lot of people thought the Gov/Andrea (mostly Andrea) storyline was just not very well done or just a poor storyline.

I kind of liked how Glenn became more of a leader and fighter, not just an errand boy this season. He's still not in the inner circle quite yet (Rick, Hershel, Daryl), but he's close.

I'll probably get Season 3 on DVD when it comes out. I have Seasons 1 and 2.

 

[partial]

I watched regularly up until the start of the second season and then just kind of lost interest mostly because i hated lori. Decided to catch myself up recently and overall i'd say the end of the second season and the third season at least the first half of it was pretty entertaining.

One plot point that i'm confused about(spoiler coming i guess, but why are you reading posts on a thread about a tv show if you don't know spoilers are going to be written about on a regular basis). So basically everyone is infected, which is why they turn if they die without getting bit. But if the human body is able to hold off the infection when they're alive why do they always turn when they're bit or scratched shouldn't some of them survive anyway or if it's so potent shouldn't they all have turned by now(getting walker blood all over their face can't be helping either)?

Not sure if this has been explained in the show and i just missed it but it's been bugging me. Normally i don't care about such things but they bothered to try to give an explanation of what the virus was it seems like they should make it consistent or just not bother with it at all.

 

[meyers7]

I watched regularly up until the start of the second season and then just kind of lost interest mostly because i hated lori.

Then you should be fine now.

One plot point that i'm confused about(spoiler coming i guess, but why are you reading posts on a thread about a tv show if you don't know spoilers are going to be written about on a regular basis). So basically everyone is infected, which is why they turn if they die without getting bit. But if the human body is able to hold off the infection when they're alive why do they always turn when they're bit or scratched shouldn't some of them survive anyway or if it's so potent shouldn't they all have turned by now(getting walker blood all over their face can't be helping either)?

Not sure if this has been explained in the show and i just missed it but it's been bugging me. Normally i don't care about such things but they bothered to try to give an explanation of what the virus was it seems like they should make it consistent or just not bother with it at all.

Well they don't "turn" when they are bitten or scratched, they die. I've seen some debates on whether they die because of blood loss, the "infection" (which they already have), or just regular infection (corpses are pretty dirty/germy - like getting bit by a rabid dog). But it's when they die that they turn.

In the comics I don't think they've had anyone turn without dying, but who knows. That would certainly put a wrench in things if they started that on the TV show.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Then you should be fine now.




Well they don't "turn" when they are bitten or scratched, they die. I've seen some debates on whether they die because of blood loss, the "infection" (which they already have), or just regular infection (corpses are pretty dirty/germy - like getting bit by a rabid dog). But it's when they die that they turn.

In the comics I don't think they've had anyone turn without dying, but who knows. That would certainly put a wrench in things if they started that on the TV show.

Meyers7 is a huge show apologist, there's always an explanation.

I hadn't thought of this point because although I can't turn off my brain to character issues I can logistically say Zombies are impossible so debating their physical characteristics is inherently flawed. For example at no point are they going to say its been 2+yrs, the Zombie population is seriously diminished because dead flesh wouldn't last 3 months.

But you are absolutely right. They hack off limbs and give up on anyone that's been bitten immediately for dead. They don't try to treat bites because there is an assumption that this infects you with a deadly zombie virus. This means that the virus transmitted via a bite is somehow different than whatever is inside or in the air that everyone has caught. However addressing this would require the characters to think or some intellectual dialogue. Not happening.

The answer is the show is entertaining but dumb and they make mistakes all the time.

 

[meyers7]

Meyers7 is a huge show apologist, there's always an explanation.

I was just addressing his misconception that they turn when bitten.

I hadn't thought of this point because although I can't turn off my brain to character issues I can logistically say Zombies are impossible so debating their physical characteristics is inherently flawed.
The answer is the show is entertaining but dumb and they make mistakes all the time.

This is a zombie show. There are gonna be some (many) unexplained things. How come a zombie's hearing and sight works so well? How come they don't bleed out when they are initially bitten, torn apart (they still have plenty of blood for the kill shots)? How do their muscles work if the heart isn't pumping blood and lungs exchanging oxygen? Plenty of things that don't work scientifically. But it's a zombie show. Don't think too much about the science parts.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I was just addressing his misconception that they turn when bitten.


This is a zombie show. There are gonna be some (many) unexplained things. How come a zombie's hearing and sight works so well? How come they don't bleed out when they are initially bitten, torn apart (they still have plenty of blood for the kill shots)? How do their muscles work if the heart isn't pumping blood and lungs exchanging oxygen? Plenty of things that don't work scientifically. But it's a zombie show. Don't think too much about the science parts.

That's pretty much what I said, zombie's are impossible so its silly/useless to troubleshoot them.

The fact that they made a huge plot point about the so-called virus now being a part of every HUMAN but then a zombie bite still contains some much quicker deadly & zombifying virus is definitely a story mistake.

Apologist was a bit too inflamatory, defender, very loyal fan, supporter?

 

[meyers7]

The fact that they made a huge plot point about the so-called virus now being a part of every HUMAN but then a zombie bite still contains some much quicker deadly & zombifying virus is definitely a story mistake.

Don't know that they've ever established that. Just you die from the zombie bite, scratch. They haven't necessarily said it's the same thing. I've read some stuff where it's not the zombie virus (that makes zombies) that kills you, but just an infection from being beaten by dead people. I don't think the show has really addressed this fully. From what Kirkman has said, they probably won't. He's not that into the science part of it, more the characters. ZA just the back drop for that. ????

Apologist was a bit too inflamatory, defender, very loyal fan, supporter?

Nah, 1) doesn't bother me 2) accurate definition 3) actually a compliment.

Apologist -
n.
A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.
I suppose with now up to 12 millions viewers, it's sorta an institution.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Don't know that they've ever established that. Just you die from the zombie bite, scratch. They haven't necessarily said it's the same thing. I've read some stuff where it's not the zombie virus (that makes zombies) that kills you, but just an infection from being beaten by dead people. I don't think the show has really addressed this fully. From what Kirkman has said, they probably won't. He's not that into the science part of it, more the characters. ZA just the back drop for that. ????


Nah, 1) doesn't bother me 2) accurate definition 3) actually a compliment.

Apologist -
n.
A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.
I suppose with now up to 12 millions viewers, it's sorta an institution.

C'mon now, they cut off a man's leg with an axe because he got bit. That was not to stave off infection. I didn't see them sterilize the mf-ing axe that likely also was used in zombie slayings. I've also occasionally wondered about the scratching infection thing b/c clearly at times the characters take risks or liberties in killing zombies with knives or struggle with them a bit. They always end up bloody & cut (in particular Governor after Andrea ditched him during her escape) but these cuts and scratches are somehow different than a bite which is unquestionably established as lethal unless immediately removed (i.e. checking for bites when seeing new people, Tryese asking group about Hershcel bite leg removal strategy etc..) Of course Kirkman says the show won't address it because the science is impossible/illogical thus easy to contradict and they have these occasional inconsistencies/f-ups.

 

[partial]

I guess it makes sense that they only turn when they die; but then the whole cdc thing and saying everyone is infected just seems unnecessary they could just leave it as that's what happens in this zombie laden world. I guess they wanted to make it depressing in that the zombie apocalypse would never end, but to me it raised a lot more unsatisfying questions then it forwarded the plot.

 

[meyers7]

C'mon now, they cut off a man's leg with an axe because he got bit. That was not to stave off infection. I didn't see them sterilize the mf-ing axe that likely also was used in zombie slayings. I've also occasionally wondered about the scratching infection thing b/c clearly at times the characters take risks or liberties in killing zombies with knives or struggle with them a bit. They always end up bloody & cut (in particular Governor after Andrea ditched him during her escape) but these cuts and scratches are somehow different than a bite which is unquestionably established as lethal unless immediately removed (i.e. checking for bites when seeing new people, Tryese asking group about Hershcel bite leg removal strategy etc..) Of course Kirkman says the show won't address it because the science is impossible/illogical thus easy to contradict and they have these occasional inconsistencies/f-ups.

Agreed. In Guts (Season 1 Episode 2), they covered themselves up when they chopped that body up and put guts all over themselves. Later episodes, doesn't seem to matter if they get blood on them.???

My wife said the same thing about the machete they used to cut off Hershel's leg. (aside - saw the Hershel actor in The Last Samurai the other night - small part) She always questions about Daryl using the same arrows over and over.

But as I said, I have read the arguments - on other boards. Also saw an article some health reporter/Doctor?? wrote about it. Just some theories out there.

 

[meyers7]

I guess it makes sense that they only turn when they die; but then the whole cdc thing and saying everyone is infected just seems unnecessary they could just leave it as that's what happens in this zombie laden world. I guess they wanted to make it depressing in that the zombie apocalypse would never end, but to me it raised a lot more unsatisfying questions then it forwarded the plot.

It was a big plot twist in the comics, and meant to be in the show. When you die, you turn. Prior to finding out, it was assumed that only those bitten (scratched) would turn. Completely changes the outlook.

Also, besides finding this out at the CDC, the CDC was also to show that's it's not just locally, or nationally like this, it's everywhere. So there is no real "safe" place to go.

And with everyone carrying the virus, there really is no "safe" place, until they find a cure. Which I'm pretty sure is never going to happen in the comics or show.

 

[Sky ball]

I read somewhere that gasoline can last 6-8 months then it deteriorates and can't be used. If so, how are they driving around in vehicles?

 

[meyers7]

I read somewhere that gasoline can last 6-8 months then it deteriorates and can't be used. If so, how are they driving around in vehicles?

Yea, that's another one. Although I used some gas from last summer in the mower this spring...sooo......????

 

[meyers7]

Walking Dead Marathon starting today at 1:00, 4th of July. Season 1 today, Season 2 Friday and Season 3 Saturday/Sunday. Just a little something to hold you over until the fall.