OT: USA 3 Panama 2

[Carl Spackler]

And many of the best Americans play with foreign club teams until the National Team comes calling again or they out age their usefulness in those top leagues.

Another issue (source: Alexi Lalas some years ago) is that soccer is coached in the United States from an early age. The 5 - 10 years olds mentioned above run drills and "learn" soccer technique. Many of the overseas players come from poverty stricken areas and they just play. Instead of learning technique, they develop instinct.

I agree with this - sort of. What the case has been, and it actively being worked on now, is that the vast majority of youth coaches are volunteer parents that know very little to nothing about the sport. Educating all those volunteers, is what is being addressed by USA soccer now in a uniform way now.

The biggest difference between the best foreign players and the best U.S. players is in ball skills. You take the average kid in the city going to the park to play ball, and they are bouncing a basketball all the way down the street, over the curbs, over the uneven surfaces, from their house to the park. You drive down the west side highway any day there isn't snow and you'll see them. In cities around the world, those kids are dribbling soccer balls down their streets, over the uneven surfaces and to the playing field, or parking lot, wherever it is.

Second generation or beyond American players, will always have that disadvantage in the world level.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Yup. They develop the touch that our players seem to lack.

I just wrote about this.

ONe of the things Klinsmann got really creamed on early on, were some comments he made about American soccer culture - and vans full of kids driven by 'soccer mom's.

One fo the very basic things about soccer - that exists for so many kids that play basketball, is that they actually dribble the basketball wherever they go. There are not "basketball moms" driving car loads of kids to the park. Soccer kids around the world, do the same thing.

 

[BlueMAB]

It's not a misconception at all. The best US athletes past the age of 12 are not choosing soccer as their primary sport. They're playing football, basketball, and baseball. In other countries, the best athletes are playing soccer and there is a ton of money invested in developing the players. That's not done here and is probably the only point you made that I agree with.

I disagree. Our "best athletes" often don't choose gymnastics and track and field and we manage to produce gold medal winners. Many of our best athletes run track to help improve their primary sport. In fact the winter and summer olympics are littered with secondary sports that we medal in all the time.

But we have systems in place to develop those athletes. We don't need the best athletes of the 300 million to play soccer. We just need a system to develop the best soccer players we have, there are plenty of athletes.

 

[BlueMAB]

Watching youth soccer in many towns is painful. They just stick the kids on a field that is way too big and let the mob chase around a soccer ball while everyone on the side screams "kick it".

I want to choke everyone involved, except the kids of course, it's not their fault.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I disagree. Our "best athletes" often don't choose gymnastics and track and field and we manage to produce gold medal winners. Many of our best athletes run track to help improve their primary sport. In fact the winter and summer olympics are littered with secondary sports that we medal in all the time.

But we have systems in place to develop those athletes. We don't need the best athletes of the 300 million to play soccer. We just need a system to develop the best soccer players we have, there are plenty of athletes.

Yeah, I actually agreed with this point in the post you quoted.

The issue American soccer has had is that in the countries that tend to dominate the sport (Brazil, most of Europe) soccer is the primary sport and the best athletes in those countries play soccer into their adulthood. Gymnastics and track? What countries are those the primary sports of? Romania with gymnastics? We're starting on equal footing against the rest of the world.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Yeah, I actually agreed with this point in the post you quoted.

The issue American soccer has had is that in the countries that tend to dominate the sport (Brazil, most of Europe) soccer is the primary sport and the best athletes in those countries play soccer into their adulthood. Gymnastics and track? What countries are those the primary sports of? Romania with gymnastics? We're starting on equal footing against the rest of the world.

I'll just respond this and let it drop for awhile.

The one thing the U.S.A. has, that no other country in the world can come close to, when it comes to international sports competition (of any kind)....is resources - both in athletes, and money spent on athletics. This is why the "best athletes play other sports" doesn't make any sense.

We should be dominating Concacaf soccer regularly, not because we have a good coach, or whatever - we should dominate concacaf regularly based on sheer population size. The countries we compete against, by sheer necessity have to develop the kinds of systems that have been discussed here to compete nationally.

The U.S. has been able to middle around at the level we're at internationally for so many years, simply because of population size. Nobody has really tried before to establish a system that can develop an international competitive soccer team at the highest level.

The U.S.A. is a truly a sleeping giant in the realm of international soccer. There are few countries that would be able to compete regularly, and they are the regulars now, that have already been mentioned.

So - enough hump day distraction.

I hope our travel squad for Cincy brings a better game than they did to Buffalo.

 

[Waquoit]

Watching youth soccer in many towns is painful. They just stick the kids on a field that is way too big and let the mob chase around a soccer ball while everyone on the side screams "kick it".

I want to choke everyone involved, except the kids of course, it's not their fault.

Have you gotten involved in youth soccer? Why would you want to choke people who are giving their time?

 

[BlueMAB]

Have you gotten involved in youth soccer? Why would you want to choke people who are giving their time?

Why do you intentionally miss the point just to pick arguments with people? You're smart enough to understand hyperbole when it's used, do you enjoy pretending to be stupid? Is that fun for you?

Yes, I have coached and I have tried to change the culture and explain to the people running things in my town that they aren't teaching the kids anything, and there's a better way to do it that is more enjoyable for everyone involved.

Those people aren't "giving" their time, they are wasting their time. Instructional leagues are supposed to be about instruction. When there is no instruction the parents could save time and money by agreeing to meet at whomever house that has a big yard. Send the kids out with a soccer ball, let them run around and kick it, and save about $150. They're learning just as much, which is nothing.

 

[BlueMAB]

Yeah, I actually agreed with this point in the post you quoted.

The issue American soccer has had is that in the countries that tend to dominate the sport (Brazil, most of Europe) soccer is the primary sport and the best athletes in those countries play soccer into their adulthood. Gymnastics and track? What countries are those the primary sports of? Romania with gymnastics? We're starting on equal footing against the rest of the world.

Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, yet there are only a few countries that dominate consistently. Those countries don't have near the population to draw from that we do. But those countries have systems that are well funded. For that reason, we are not starting on equal footing, despite the fact our population (and funding potential) dwarfs most of those countries that have dominated us.

 

[geordi]

Right now, we are just coming into the second phase of what hadbeen envisioned for US Soccer. I was working for the World Cup Organizing Committee in Washington in 1993-4. The plan was to first of all, put a successful World Cup together and in fact teach marketing to other countries that might be awarded the Cup. It worked. The revenue realized by the 1994 Cup was 15 times what any other Cup generated up to then and still is the record setter 20 years later. That revenue was critical to moving soccer forward in this country.

Secondly, we were moving to use the World Cup here as a springboard to launch a national soccer league. MLS started with 10 teams with it's first season in '96. It was to grow slowly rather than use the old NASL model and flame out after a few years. It's done that. 20 teams now and crowds are now growing significantly...especially in the West as someone said. The league was designed to build home grown talent and give them an opportunity to play. At the time, it was expected that it would take 20 -25 years to be competetive with the best teams in the world. We're still not, but we are much, much closer than we've ever been.

The third phase was to affect youth coaching and development. Up until then, like all sports, dads were soccer coaches at the lowest levels. The problem with that was that kids were being coached basically by people who had never played the game at any level. Obviously hard to convey fundamentals. But with the game growing now more and more coaches have actually played and can coach. Not fully up to par, but growing. Some of what the league and US Soccer is doing to help that is setting up licensing programs and training seminars for coaches and prospective coaches and that's making a difference.

Someone said earlier that, if we get to the second round in Brazil, we'll be doing very well. I agree. Now we even have a reasonable chance to win a game in that round. But we are still a dozen or more years from competing for a Cup.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

While I applaud the concerted effort to focus more on youth development in the US, there has been one very controversial aspect of it.

The official US Development academies, such as PDA and World Class in NJ, prohibit high school boys who are on an Academy team as of 2012 team playing soccer at their high school in the fall season. I believe the same rule will be applied to girls in 2014. While the Academy program is needed to develop elite players in the US, how many even with such a tool will be ‘elite?’ For maybe 12 kids a year to develop nationally into elite players, somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 kids will not be able to play soccer in front of their friends, family, etc. while managing a rough regional and sometimes even national travel schedule. How many will burn out entirely under those conditions and stop playing? How many families can afford this (just the private soccer club in my town in NY the annual cost is $650 for U8!)? In addition, the rule has had disproportional impact on the top-tier high school teams, like MLK HS in NYC that is noted in the clip below, who lost 25% of their team. That is a rule that I believe needs to be looked at and better balanced.

http://www.momsteam.com/us-soccer-h...tegrity-says-one-veteran-sports-administrator

 

[Jimdish255]

Just re-watched the last 15 minutes of the Mexico v Costa Rica match as it went from despair to exaltation in the booth. Players seemed clueless, and listless but the drama kings were going nuts. Very entertaining - "Termino! Termino!"

 

[Carl Spackler]

While I applaud the concerted effort to focus more on youth development in the US, there has been one very controversial aspect of it.

The official US Development academies, such as PDA and World Class in NJ, prohibit high school boys who are on an Academy team as of 2012 team playing soccer at their high school in the fall season. I believe the same rule will be applied to girls in 2014. While the Academy program is needed to develop elite players in the US, how many even with such a tool will be ‘elite?’ For maybe 12 kids a year to develop nationally into elite players, somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 kids will not be able to play soccer in front of their friends, family, etc. while managing a rough regional and sometimes even national travel schedule. How many will burn out entirely under those conditions and stop playing? How many families can afford this (just the private soccer club in my town in NY the annual cost is $650 for U8!)? In addition, the rule has had disproportional impact on the top-tier high school teams, like MLK HS in NYC that is noted in the clip below, who lost 25% of their team. That is a rule that I believe needs to be looked at and better balanced.

http://www.momsteam.com/us-soccer-h...tegrity-says-one-veteran-sports-administrator

This is what I was talking about - the biggest barriers now - are the regulations and rules that exist in different states regarding youth competition.

THis is from the program directly: First link is the 'academy' think you're talking about that is the highest level of competition at each youth age group. Second link is the coaching strategy thing - for the volunteer coaches, to all get on the same pages and learn what to do for their age groups and the lower levels of competition within each age group.

http://www.ussoccer.com/teams/development-academy/academy-overview.aspx


http://www.ussoccer.com/Coaches/Coaching-Education/Coaching-Home.aspx


The coaching "curriculum" is something that is being adopted in most youth programs around the country, but there is no actual mandate for it. Nor is there a requirement for any club to joing the "academy". THe curriculum stuff is available to anyone and everyone, the academy - clubs need to apply for, and they need to meet requirements.

All of this - will also help snowball MLS into a better league.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Here's another one from the man himself.

http://www.ussoccer.com/media-library/videos/us-men/2012/04/120420-studio-90.aspx

 

[billybud]

My son played for a Florida elite travel club for six years...his coaches were imported from Great Britain...assistants were former Premier League guys. A few Brazilian amd Argentinian guys rotated through as coaches/assistants. It was definitely a middle class thing with the club costs and travel expenses.

Although I was a soccer coach (Class D license or high school level), I came to soccer late in life after football and rugby (mid 20's) and never had the technical skills that these ex pro's have. A kid that isn't kicking off-footed by 9-10 years old will always try to favor his strong foot near the goal. And will be defended that way.

The Dade county teams were always in the quarter finals to semi finals and were a tough draw...they had more kids who were born with a ball near their feet.

 

[ZooCougar]

That's great insight.

I think the problem is that the systems that develop great players in traditional soccer nations are not compatible with our existing systems. As a result the cost goes way up.

High School soccer isn't going to generate the American Pele unless kids are playing HS soccer 9 months a year and they have coaches of the caliber you mentioned.

It just ends up limiting pool of players that can afford to get into the elite programs.

If we can ever get to the point where we have a large pool of experts to coach the sport in the right way, the costs should go down. But it's gonna take a minute.

My son played for a Florida elite travel club for six years...his coaches were imported from Great Britain...assistants were former Premier League guys. A few Brazilian amd Argentinian guys rotated through as coaches/assistants. It was definitely a middle class thing with the club costs and travel expenses.

Although I was a soccer coach (Class D license or high school level), I came to soccer late in life after football and rugby (mid 20's) and never had the technical skills that these ex pro's have. A kid that isn't kicking off-footed by 9-10 years old will always try to favor his strong foot near the goal. And will be defended that way.

The Dade county teams were always in the quarter finals to semi finals and were a tough draw...they had more kids who were born with a ball near their feet.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The comment bout the "kids born with the ball at their feet" is very much true.

Soccer is a sport which at world level competition, requires a lifetime of developing skills to compete. There really is no other sport like it. International ice hockey - Olympics is probably the most similar, because if you don't skate from the earliest age, you don't have the skills to compete and it's certainly not a sport that is played by every country on the planet.

The same thing exists in many individual sports, but soccer and hockey - probably the only two I can come up with that to be world class, and are team spots, but you gotta be starting from when you can walk, and never stop. basketball too, but specifically the ball handlers in basketball, not everybody on the team. You can train a big man to be a good player that never played as a kid.

Football - is not such a sport. You can take a gifted athlete, and turn them into a highest quality football player at nearly any age. Baseball - as well. The hand eye coordination to hit the ball, you either got it or you don't - you can coach it to a degree, but really all you are doing is honing a genetic skill.

 

[businesslawyer]

my point? nothing. Just writing.

Oh come on. Is someone testing me on my self-restraint?

LOL.

 

[billybud]

Another problem for the US is the placement of soccer in the sports firmament.

Here, in Florida, many of the best non hispanic athletes will play soccer as a second sport or off season sport. The competition from baseball is fierce. The early years see heavy competition from pee wee football, all sorts of youth baseball, etc. In other countries, soccer is THE sport.

One of our kids who would have played soccer at one of the better college soccer programs was also a inline speed skater...who went on to the Olympics as a speed skater rather than use his speed as a striker.

 

[Kgun7]

One huge, recent change (last 3 years) is the ability for US kids of all ages to turn the TV on and see top flight soccer/football at almost anytime of day and any day of the week. Kids in our community wear Man U and Barcelona jerseys to school and talk about how many goals Messi scored over the weekend.

My generation had "Soccer Made in Germany" on PBS every Sunday morning at 6am for 30 minutes and a World Cup every 4 years. It wasn't until Eric Wynalda's goal against Switzerland and Marcello Balboa's almost goal bicycle kick against Colombia that I realized the US could compete with the world's best.

 

[Jimdish255]

You're welcome neighbor....

...now GET OFF MY LAWN!

 

[Mots010]

Back to the game, anyone else excited about this Johannsson kid? It looked like he dropped back into the midfield a bit in the second half the other day, and his play in the build up was impressive. He has some instincts and skills that few, if any, of the players on our team possess, and i can see why Klinsy spent a year recruiting him. I could see him being an x factor next summer.

 

[Waquoit]

Why do you intentionally miss the point just to pick arguments with people? You're smart enough to understand hyperbole when it's used, do you enjoy pretending to be stupid? Is that fun for you?

Nah, I know guys like you. I coached rec league soccer. They asked me because they were basically out of options. I had no soccer background but my youngest brother was on the team and I had a friend who played in college and they knew he would pitch in. It was basically me or they disband the team. I gave it my best shot, but that didn't stop a few soccer snobs like yourself from giving me a ton of on occaision. You say I wasn't "giving" my time, but "wasting" my time? Ef you.

 

[SAMCRO]

Another issue (source: Alexi Lalas some years ago) is that soccer is coached in the United States from an early age. The 5 - 10 years olds mentioned above run drills and "learn" soccer technique. Many of the overseas players come from poverty stricken areas and they just play. Instead of learning technique, they develop instinct.

I've heard a partially similar comment form a close friend who is a Brit, former 1st division player in England who stopped playing when he realized he was not going to advance beyond that level (and decided to go to work to earn some real $$ for his wife to start their family...he's now a top exec making more than most players in the Premiereship, so right decision for him). His father coaches at a high level outside of Manchester, Engl, and his own kids play youth soccer in the US. He has commented that the coaching/instruction the youth leagues are provided in the States is far superior to what they are doing "back home". It is much more technical, etc.. He didn't reference the lacking instinct piece, but there is some merit to that I would assume (as much as it annoys me to agree with anything Lalas says).

 

[SAMCRO]

Back to the game, anyone else excited about this Johannsson kid? It looked like he dropped back into the midfield a bit in the second half the other day, and his play in the build up was impressive. He has some instincts and skills that few, if any, of the players on our team possess, and i can see why Klinsy spent a year recruiting him. I could see him being an x factor next summer.

Yes, yes, and yes..... He will be a big factor in Brazil.

 

[ZooCougar]

I've heard a partially similar comment form a close friend who is a Brit, former 1st division player in England who stopped playing when he realized he was not going to advance beyond that level (and decided to go to work to earn some real for his wife to start their family...he's now a top exec making more than most players in the Premiereship, so right decision for him). His father coaches at a high level outside of Manchester, Engl, and his own kids play youth soccer in the US. He has commented that the coaching/instruction the youth leagues are provided in the States is far superior to what they are doing "back home". It is much more technical, etc.. He didn't reference the lacking instinct piece, but there is some merit to that I would assume (as much as it annoys me to agree with anything Lalas says).

This is good to hear. It's likely that we won't see the impact of these reforms for a decade or so, but I am pretty confident that US Soccer will only improve as time goes by.

 

[SubbaBub]

I like AJ's game and his skill level, but he will need some seasoning with a look to replacing Demspey in 2018.

In 2014, he will make the roster and back up the ST and ACM spots with EJ and Mix.

Time for an update:

GK - Howard** - Guzan* - Rimando
LB - Beasley* - TBD
CM - Besler*- Gonzalez* - Goodson* -Cameron*
RB - Evans* - TBD
DM - Bradley**-Jones**- Beckerman - Diskerud*
LAM - Donovan**-F Johnson*
CAM - Dempsey**
RAM - Zusi* - Bedoya
ST: Altidore*, E Johnson*, Johansson*

Assumes most of the attacking players are interchangeable, Cameron gets spot duty in three spots and the only guaranteed starters are LD, CD, MB, JJ and TH.

I think Jurg will look for.more depth at Fullback with Parkhurst a leading candidate at RB who may end up starting. Cherundolo will make the squad if healthy and playing regularly. LB looks like F. Johnson is the preferred backup to Beasley but with him already on the roster, someone like Castillo makes it on the Bus. Beckerman and Bedoya are on currently the bubble.

 

[John]

Watching youth soccer in many towns is painful. They just stick the kids on a field that is way too big and let the mob chase around a soccer ball while everyone on the side screams "kick it".

I want to choke everyone involved, except the kids of course, it's not their fault.

We are running into this with my oldest - he's been playing rec level soccer and is trying to transition to premier level. The premier coach thinks he has a lot of upside but is working on drumming out a lot of bad habits that he's picked up from playing rec for so long. He has told us on a couple of occassions that rec soccer can ruin a player like my son.

 

[John]

Nah, I know guys like you. I coached rec league soccer. They asked me because they were basically out of options. I had no soccer background but my youngest brother was on the team and I had a friend who played in college and they knew he would pitch in. It was basically me or they disband the team. I gave it my best shot, but that didn't stop a few soccer snobs like yourself from giving me a ton of on occaision. You say I wasn't "giving" my time, but "wasting" my time? Ef you.

Much respect to you.

 

[ZooCougar]

Nah, I know guys like you. I coached rec league soccer. They asked me because they were basically out of options. I had no soccer background but my youngest brother was on the team and I had a friend who played in college and they knew he would pitch in. It was basically me or they disband the team. I gave it my best shot, but that didn't stop a few soccer snobs like yourself from giving me a ton of on occaision. You say I wasn't "giving" my time, but "wasting" my time? Ef you.

You're always the victim huh. You poor thing.