OT: UNC Academic Fraud Investigation

[Vowelguy]

Well. Joey Kerns certainly has his priorities in order!

The Onion is a parody site.

 

[Zorro]

"Are they trying to say that there is parity between Duke and NC, or between NC and everyone else. I don't see how there could be parity when there have been 31oo students over 18 years and and other schools, like UConn have been penalized for...what's that? Not parity? Parody? Never mind.

 

[j66kicker]

The Onion is a parody site.

Oops - sorry. Hard to tell the dif sometimes in this case

 

[loneycafe]

Nobody can scoop the poop on a Tarheel better than a Dookie. Crazy like a fox.

I think even Dookies would agree that the Pack crowd is formidable in its own right. The Pack Pride message board posters have been relentless.

BTW, this book is priceless. http://cheatingblueram.com

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

I read the lead article in the student newspaper. I hope the slant in what was written isn't indicative of the overall reaction of the campus community, though I suspect it will be. Minimalist in tone as to what happened. Without saying so, largely implies the fault lies with a rogue professor and his assistant. Sad.

Yeah... for 18 years.

 

[UcMiami]

Just read this - on the 2005 NCAA championship team 5 of the players had a total of 39 paper classes identified on their transcripts and of those five 4 were 'major contributors to the teams success'. That represents 8 classes each for those five players - not sure how many years they each spent at UNC but 8 classes represents one full year of courses or 25% of a four year education. And that represents only the classes they were definitely able to identify as 'bogus'.

Also read where Crowder admitted starting the classes specifically for athletes and for some AFAM students who were suffering from personal issue, but news of the classes spread in the fraternities and some of the sororities and their academic advisers started funnel students into the classes as well to the point she began to be overwhelm by the numbers. That is likely where most of the 52% non-athletic registrations comes from.

 

[Icebear]

Even in the 70s fraternities were the super highways of information on gut or boat courses although courses were nothing compared the sham these were. Usually, we were sharing information between students with hugely demanding majors like pre med, physics, and such who needed a GED course with an easier work load to even out their schedule.

 

[GregP]

Are you nuts? Academic fraud isn't nearly as repugnant as a congratulatory phone call to a 7th grader.

There you go. Just look at how FAST the NCAA reacted shows you how bad calling a 7th grader was.

 

[TroyHouse66]

Regarding my comment on yesterday's topic... rankings of 2014-2015 Top Ten WBB teams...
<<I'd be a bit careful about listing North Carolina as a participant in any NCAA athletics until the late-breaking news stories and legal cases are resolved...>>
(Now including WBB...)


Quoted from Wainstein Report...
<<Just how widespread was this ring of corruption? Jan Boxill, a philosophy professor whose formal title is director of the Parr Center for Ethics, steered women’s basketball players to Crowder and literally named their grade. “Did you say a D will do?” Crowder wrote to Boxill in an e-mail about one player who had apparently recycled an old paper. “Yes, a D will be fine; that’s all she needs,” Boxill replied.>>

 

[meyers7]

"Are they trying to say that there is parity between Duke and NC, or between NC and everyone else. I don't see how there could be parity when there have been 31oo students over 18 years and and other schools, like UConn have been penalized for...what's that? Not parity? Parody? Never mind.

Thank you Mrs. Litella.

 

[loneycafe]

Does this cast any shadow on DD's academic standing??

Not at all. The no-show classes were supposedly stopped in 2011.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I have not read all the posts here, but super curious to see how the NCAA responds..... Wonder if they are going to wimp out and state that this is an academic issue and stand back from it..... I would hope that they slap UNC appropriately..... still fuming about the NCAA's targeting of CT men's academics retroactively, and glad when Shabazz spoke his mind at the tournament last year..... UNC with its carrying this sham for 2 decades largely in order to preserve eligibility for its athletes..... it should be severely punished, and many are watching

 

[Beemer]

Didn't the UCONN men's basketball team get suspended from post season play for a couple of years due to poor academics? And the poor academics was not fraud but accurate reporting of performance in "real" classes. Someone else posted that UNC is the academic equivalent of banking's "too big to fail" scenario. Therefore it will be interesting to see how the NCAA handles this hot potato. Clearly neither UNC or the NCAA has been interested in getting to the truth. And as I posted earlier, ignorance is not an excuse for senior management of the athletic department, the teams, and the university. Lastly I would love to hear from the ACC regarding one of their prestige schools' actions!!!

I doubt we'll hear anything from the ACC or the NCAA until it becomes obvious that they HAVE to say something or else appear to support UNC's actions. Until then nothing will be said- UNC is a huge cash cow for both and as we all know money talks.

 

[Beemer]

As for UNC's neighbor schools gloating over this- be very careful. God only knows what might be hidden at your own school. Big money sports has a way of corrupting everything it touches. I never dreamed that UConn would ever get sanctioned the way it did. But it happened.

 

[wire chief]

The place needs an SMU-like death sentence.

 

[UcMiami]

With the amount of national news press on this subject and the really damning comparisons to other academic scandals involving athletes, I just don't think the NCAA can ignore this or respond with a wrist slap. Here is a pretty interesting link for historic perspective - and remember - these folks in the comparison scandals were actually in real classes with actual professors:
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-ba...s-grades-harvard-duke-minnesota-naval-academy
I agree that the Gophers penalty would be a good jumping off point.

(Does Geno's record improve if WCBB wins at UNC get vacated?!)

 

[UcMiami]

As for UNC's neighbor schools gloating over this- be very careful. God only knows what might be hidden at your own school. Big money sports has a way of corrupting everything it touches. I never dreamed that UConn would ever get sanctioned the way it did. But it happened.

'Neighbor' is too limiting a term 'ANY' or 'ALL D1' is more appropriate - I started to write a similar post last night and dropped it.
1. I think anyone who has spent any time at a university knows that their are tough classes and easier classes and most of us suspect that some athletes have been subjected to less rigorous grading in some course.
2. There are also at every university some course that are less academically rigorous even if they are rigorous in other ways - art classes, dance, physical education, etc. may not require 'book' learning to the degree that an engineering course would - and that athletes may choose or be steered towards these classes in the hope that they may perform better in them.
3. I think many of us suspect that almost every school has had tutors for athletes that may not have understood, or may have willfully broken the boundary between 'tutoring' and 'improper assistance' in submitted coursework.

BUT -
1. The creation of bogus courses that did not have a faculty member in anyway involved in teaching or grading is something that I suspect is unique to UNC or extremely rare.
2. The existence of the program for 18 years is a run that I thing is unique or very rare - most faculty members and administrators are pretty honest and very protective of the integrity or their institution. The UNC report documents a number of employees uninvolved with the actual fraud becoming aware of irregularities and doing absolutely nothing, which allowed the 18 year run. I think that would be pretty unique as well.
3. The sheer numbers involved - a minimum of 3100 students involved over 18 years works out to an average of 172 students involved each year. And some of these students were taking multiple courses - one student took four in a single semester, another 5 basketball players averaged 8 during their college careers. That kind of systemic cheating is just mind blowing.

After writing the above it seems hard to believe a death penalty is unjustified and in fact is the only appropriate action.

 

[CL82]

From Inside Carolina, regarding Roy WIlliams




But yet, this was the first part in the Roy Williams section/discussion of the Wainstein Report (beginning on Page 72 and continuing to Page 74):




So they use the same oversight system with the same individuals involved. The status of player academics was reported to Williams. Roy expressed discomfort with AFAM and issued a directive (that apparently was never followed). And he constantly preaches that it is the "number one" responsibility of coaches to make sure their players get a good education.

So if it is his top priority to make sure his players get a good education and he uses the same oversight/monitoring system that he always has and he expressed concerns over AFAM, how can he claim not to know what was going on?

Is anyone else reminded of this?

Williams: I expressed concern over the clustering of AFAM majors.
Kaffee: Oh we'll get to the airmen in just a minute.

 

[Zorro]

I was at SMU during the time of the death penalty, and I thought that the results were so devastating that it would never be applied again. And it hasn't been. But if there was ever a case that deserved it, this is it. I have been involved in academics all my life, and I can guarantee you that there is no way this was not widely known among the faculty and administration. NC should have to, at the very least, forfeit any game in which any athlete in any sport was involved who had participate in these ghost classes, plus severe penalties for their present and future programs; scholly restrictions, post-season bans, etc., along with unrestricted ability of current athletes to transfer. It won't happen, but it should.

 

[loneycafe]

As for UNC's neighbor schools gloating over this- be very careful. God only knows what might be hidden at your own school. Big money sports has a way of corrupting everything it touches. I never dreamed that UConn would ever get sanctioned the way it did. But it happened.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think we're gloating or even taking delight in this as much as just feeling like "Finally, the facade is exposed." (For me, anyway.)

Also, NC State had its own athletic issues in the 1980s and early 1990s, and we have paid for it for the past 20-plus years. We're now largely irrelevant among the major college teams. If we're cheating or hiding something, athletic-wise, we're not doing it right or have anything to show for it. (And, also, I'd add we at NC State are very aware of our own transgressions. We did have a chancellor, a provost, and the chair of the trustees resign in 2009, after all.)

I can't speak on behalf of Dookies, but for NC State, there's a long history between the two state schools (both technically being North Carolina's flagship universities) that goes beyond the playing fields that has caused dislike. The adversarial relationships is deep and long, going all the way back to the very founding of NC State and how UNC leaders at the time tried to interfere with that to today, when about 60 percent of the UNC Systems' Board of Governors is comprised of UNC graduates. I don't think it's gloating as much as feeling like finally comeuppance may be coming and maybe there's an opportunity here for a more level playing field. And, more than gloating or pleasure, I think it's anger over long-standing issues that is driving Pack Pride message board fans to be relentless in its pursuit of comeuppance for UNC and in exposing the true "Carolina Way."

 

[Bigpetunia]

This is an appalling scandal, and the repercussions should be harsh. But with all the schadenfreude going around, along with breathtakingly idiotic statements suggesting that all UNC degrees conferred over the last 18 years should be considered worthless, we ought to reconcile ourselves to the fact that these practices are assuredly more widespread than we'd like to think. The scale of the fraud at UNC may or may not be unusual among Div 1 schools. I can assure you that, in the wake of this report, there are many other programs whose personnel is losing sleep over fear of a more widespread investigation. Their saving grace, as others have suggested, is that the NCAA would much rather sweep all of this under the carpet...just too many dollars at stake. But the myth that exists about so-called student/athletes, certainly at many of those institutions with 100,000 seat stadiums to fill, is only that...a myth. Some schools do a better job than others about putting over the deception.

 

[intlzncster]

Posted this on another thread, but figured I'd stick it here too:

Might be worth would be worth sending as many emails/tweets as you can to the ESPN ombudsman about their completely lack of coverage regarding UNC/Syracuse. Contact Form: Robert LipsyteTwitter: @ESPN_Lipsyte

I know it's not much, but it's something. More than just b!tching on a UCONN fan form at least.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

“What’s important is that we kicked Duke’s ass at academic fraud.”

http://www.theonion.com/articles/re...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

That was hilarious, vowelguy! Thank you for sharing!

 

[j66kicker]

Does Geno's record improve if WCBB wins at UNC get vacated?!

If so, he could pick up another final 4 appearance as well. UCONN lost to UNC (Marion Jones, et al) in the 1994 final 8. Maybe they should replay that final 4, since UNC won it all - then if UCONN beats Purdue (coached by Lin Dunn) and La Tech (Leon Barmore), Geno already has his 10th NC!

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

I was at SMU during the time of the death penalty, and I thought that the results were so devastating that it would never be applied again. And it hasn't been. But if there was ever a case that deserved it, this is it. I have been involved in academics all my life, and I can guarantee you that there is no way this was not widely known among the faculty and administration. NC should have to, at the very least, forfeit any game in which any athlete in any sport was involved who had participate in these ghost classes, plus severe penalties for their present and future programs; scholly restrictions, post-season bans, etc., along with unrestricted ability of current athletes to transfer. It won't happen, but it should.

Very good point. Side note...I watched the ESPN "30 for 30" documentary, Pony Excess, which was the documentary film regarding SMU. It was really well done.

But one of the points from that movie is that while the death penalty basically decimated SMU's football program for twenty years, the NCAA has been hesitant to impose the death penalty ever since.

Look at Penn State. That program could have easily been given the death penalty for a year. But with the millions of dollars paid out (and continue to be paid out) to Jerry Sandusky's victims, the NCAA did not go that far.

The UNC academic fraud was systemic and pervasive throughout the Athletics Department and in academic administration. And it went on for 18 years. But the problem with imposing the death penalty is that too many sports are implicated - football, men's basketball, women's basketball, etc. Which ones get the death penalty? Would it be the entire UNC Athletic Department?

Arguably, the men's basketball team should have the 2005 and 2009 titles vacated. There were a multitude of players who were not eligible but for the paper classes and fake grades. That much is evident in the Wainstein Report.

But will the NCAA take the step of vacating the championships for one of the "blue blood" (Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC) programs?

I hate saying this, but I bet the NCAA's prior punishment of the UConn men's basketball team will be worse than what is given to UNC. And that is beyond unfair; it is a tragedy for all student-athletes.