OT: UNC Academic Fraud Investigation

[UcMiami]

With the amount of national news press on this subject and the really damning comparisons to other academic scandals involving athletes, I just don't think the NCAA can ignore this or respond with a wrist slap. Here is a pretty interesting link for historic perspective - and remember - these folks in the comparison scandals were actually in real classes with actual professors:
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-ba...s-grades-harvard-duke-minnesota-naval-academy
I agree that the Gophers penalty would be a good jumping off point.

(Does Geno's record improve if WCBB wins at UNC get vacated?!)

 

[UcMiami]

As for UNC's neighbor schools gloating over this- be very careful. God only knows what might be hidden at your own school. Big money sports has a way of corrupting everything it touches. I never dreamed that UConn would ever get sanctioned the way it did. But it happened.

'Neighbor' is too limiting a term 'ANY' or 'ALL D1' is more appropriate - I started to write a similar post last night and dropped it.
1. I think anyone who has spent any time at a university knows that their are tough classes and easier classes and most of us suspect that some athletes have been subjected to less rigorous grading in some course.
2. There are also at every university some course that are less academically rigorous even if they are rigorous in other ways - art classes, dance, physical education, etc. may not require 'book' learning to the degree that an engineering course would - and that athletes may choose or be steered towards these classes in the hope that they may perform better in them.
3. I think many of us suspect that almost every school has had tutors for athletes that may not have understood, or may have willfully broken the boundary between 'tutoring' and 'improper assistance' in submitted coursework.

BUT -
1. The creation of bogus courses that did not have a faculty member in anyway involved in teaching or grading is something that I suspect is unique to UNC or extremely rare.
2. The existence of the program for 18 years is a run that I thing is unique or very rare - most faculty members and administrators are pretty honest and very protective of the integrity or their institution. The UNC report documents a number of employees uninvolved with the actual fraud becoming aware of irregularities and doing absolutely nothing, which allowed the 18 year run. I think that would be pretty unique as well.
3. The sheer numbers involved - a minimum of 3100 students involved over 18 years works out to an average of 172 students involved each year. And some of these students were taking multiple courses - one student took four in a single semester, another 5 basketball players averaged 8 during their college careers. That kind of systemic cheating is just mind blowing.

After writing the above it seems hard to believe a death penalty is unjustified and in fact is the only appropriate action.

 

[CL82]

From Inside Carolina, regarding Roy WIlliams




But yet, this was the first part in the Roy Williams section/discussion of the Wainstein Report (beginning on Page 72 and continuing to Page 74):




So they use the same oversight system with the same individuals involved. The status of player academics was reported to Williams. Roy expressed discomfort with AFAM and issued a directive (that apparently was never followed). And he constantly preaches that it is the "number one" responsibility of coaches to make sure their players get a good education.

So if it is his top priority to make sure his players get a good education and he uses the same oversight/monitoring system that he always has and he expressed concerns over AFAM, how can he claim not to know what was going on?

Is anyone else reminded of this?

Williams: I expressed concern over the clustering of AFAM majors.
Kaffee: Oh we'll get to the airmen in just a minute.

 

[Zorro]

I was at SMU during the time of the death penalty, and I thought that the results were so devastating that it would never be applied again. And it hasn't been. But if there was ever a case that deserved it, this is it. I have been involved in academics all my life, and I can guarantee you that there is no way this was not widely known among the faculty and administration. NC should have to, at the very least, forfeit any game in which any athlete in any sport was involved who had participate in these ghost classes, plus severe penalties for their present and future programs; scholly restrictions, post-season bans, etc., along with unrestricted ability of current athletes to transfer. It won't happen, but it should.

 

[loneycafe]

As for UNC's neighbor schools gloating over this- be very careful. God only knows what might be hidden at your own school. Big money sports has a way of corrupting everything it touches. I never dreamed that UConn would ever get sanctioned the way it did. But it happened.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think we're gloating or even taking delight in this as much as just feeling like "Finally, the facade is exposed." (For me, anyway.)

Also, NC State had its own athletic issues in the 1980s and early 1990s, and we have paid for it for the past 20-plus years. We're now largely irrelevant among the major college teams. If we're cheating or hiding something, athletic-wise, we're not doing it right or have anything to show for it. (And, also, I'd add we at NC State are very aware of our own transgressions. We did have a chancellor, a provost, and the chair of the trustees resign in 2009, after all.)

I can't speak on behalf of Dookies, but for NC State, there's a long history between the two state schools (both technically being North Carolina's flagship universities) that goes beyond the playing fields that has caused dislike. The adversarial relationships is deep and long, going all the way back to the very founding of NC State and how UNC leaders at the time tried to interfere with that to today, when about 60 percent of the UNC Systems' Board of Governors is comprised of UNC graduates. I don't think it's gloating as much as feeling like finally comeuppance may be coming and maybe there's an opportunity here for a more level playing field. And, more than gloating or pleasure, I think it's anger over long-standing issues that is driving Pack Pride message board fans to be relentless in its pursuit of comeuppance for UNC and in exposing the true "Carolina Way."

 

[Bigpetunia]

This is an appalling scandal, and the repercussions should be harsh. But with all the schadenfreude going around, along with breathtakingly idiotic statements suggesting that all UNC degrees conferred over the last 18 years should be considered worthless, we ought to reconcile ourselves to the fact that these practices are assuredly more widespread than we'd like to think. The scale of the fraud at UNC may or may not be unusual among Div 1 schools. I can assure you that, in the wake of this report, there are many other programs whose personnel is losing sleep over fear of a more widespread investigation. Their saving grace, as others have suggested, is that the NCAA would much rather sweep all of this under the carpet...just too many dollars at stake. But the myth that exists about so-called student/athletes, certainly at many of those institutions with 100,000 seat stadiums to fill, is only that...a myth. Some schools do a better job than others about putting over the deception.

 

[intlzncster]

Posted this on another thread, but figured I'd stick it here too:

Might be worth would be worth sending as many emails/tweets as you can to the ESPN ombudsman about their completely lack of coverage regarding UNC/Syracuse. Contact Form: Robert LipsyteTwitter: @ESPN_Lipsyte

I know it's not much, but it's something. More than just b!tching on a UCONN fan form at least.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

“What’s important is that we kicked Duke’s ass at academic fraud.”

http://www.theonion.com/articles/re...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

That was hilarious, vowelguy! Thank you for sharing!

 

[j66kicker]

Does Geno's record improve if WCBB wins at UNC get vacated?!

If so, he could pick up another final 4 appearance as well. UCONN lost to UNC (Marion Jones, et al) in the 1994 final 8. Maybe they should replay that final 4, since UNC won it all - then if UCONN beats Purdue (coached by Lin Dunn) and La Tech (Leon Barmore), Geno already has his 10th NC!

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

I was at SMU during the time of the death penalty, and I thought that the results were so devastating that it would never be applied again. And it hasn't been. But if there was ever a case that deserved it, this is it. I have been involved in academics all my life, and I can guarantee you that there is no way this was not widely known among the faculty and administration. NC should have to, at the very least, forfeit any game in which any athlete in any sport was involved who had participate in these ghost classes, plus severe penalties for their present and future programs; scholly restrictions, post-season bans, etc., along with unrestricted ability of current athletes to transfer. It won't happen, but it should.

Very good point. Side note...I watched the ESPN "30 for 30" documentary, Pony Excess, which was the documentary film regarding SMU. It was really well done.

But one of the points from that movie is that while the death penalty basically decimated SMU's football program for twenty years, the NCAA has been hesitant to impose the death penalty ever since.

Look at Penn State. That program could have easily been given the death penalty for a year. But with the millions of dollars paid out (and continue to be paid out) to Jerry Sandusky's victims, the NCAA did not go that far.

The UNC academic fraud was systemic and pervasive throughout the Athletics Department and in academic administration. And it went on for 18 years. But the problem with imposing the death penalty is that too many sports are implicated - football, men's basketball, women's basketball, etc. Which ones get the death penalty? Would it be the entire UNC Athletic Department?

Arguably, the men's basketball team should have the 2005 and 2009 titles vacated. There were a multitude of players who were not eligible but for the paper classes and fake grades. That much is evident in the Wainstein Report.

But will the NCAA take the step of vacating the championships for one of the "blue blood" (Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC) programs?

I hate saying this, but I bet the NCAA's prior punishment of the UConn men's basketball team will be worse than what is given to UNC. And that is beyond unfair; it is a tragedy for all student-athletes.

 

[CL82]

Very good point. Side note...I watched the ESPN "30 for 30" documentary, Pony Excess, which was the documentary film regarding SMU. It was really well done.

But one of the points from that movie is that while the death penalty basically decimated SMU's football program for twenty years, the NCAA has been hesitant to impose the death penalty ever since.

Look at Penn State. That program could have easily been given the death penalty for a year. But with the millions of dollars paid out (and continue to be paid out) to Jerry Sandusky's victims, the NCAA did not go that far.

The UNC academic fraud was systemic and pervasive throughout the Athletics Department and in academic administration. And it went on for 18 years. But the problem with imposing the death penalty is that too many sports are implicated - football, men's basketball, women's basketball, etc. Which ones get the death penalty? Would it be the entire UNC Athletic Department?

Arguably, the men's basketball team should have the 2005 and 2009 titles vacated. There were a multitude of players who were not eligible but for the paper classes and fake grades. That much is evident in the Wainstein Report.

But will the NCAA take the step of vacating the championships for one of the "blue blood" (Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC) programs?

I hate saying this, but I bet the NCAA's prior punishment of the UConn men's basketball team will be worse than what is given to UNC. And that is beyond unfair; it is a tragedy for all student-athletes.

It's hard to imagine being able to justify that. UConn had some players who were not a material part of the team transfer while they were struggling academically, which UConn timely reported to the NCAA. UNC had 18 years of willful fraud that they tried to hide from the NCAA. It is very difficult to equate the two. Yet I wonder if you will be proven right.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

It's hard to imagine being able to justify that. UConn had some players who were not a material part of the team transfer while they were struggling academically, which UConn timely reported to the NCAA. UNC had 18 years of willful fraud that they tried to hide from the NCAA. It is very difficult to equate the two. Yet I wonder if you will be proven right.

Oh, I agree. It is very difficult to equate the two. But the NCAA views UNC as a "blue blood," not UConn. It is disparaging to UConn, which has won three national titles 3 national titles in the last 16 years and has been one of the powerhouses of men's basketball. Nevertheless, for whatever reason, the NCAA seems to have it in for UConn...and not just the men's basketball program.

As an outside observer, it really seems as if the NCAA comes down harder on UConn than other programs. What is a minor violation by UConn is blown up by the NCAA, but the same conduct committed by another school is not judged nearly as harshly.

 

[Beemer]

The place needs an SMU-like death sentence.

I doubt very much this happens. SMU has never recovered from the "death penalty" and I believe that is why the NCAA has not used it since.

 

[j66kicker]

I doubt very much this happens. SMU has never recovered from the "death penalty" and I believe that is why the NCAA has not used it since.

Kentucky mens BB got the death penalty in 1952 and they recovered. San Francisco U self-imposed the death penalty in 1982 (for 4 years) in the face of severe NCAA sanctions. They didn't recover yet, but they have 30 more years before their recovery can be compared to KY's

 

[intlzncster]

Does this cast any shadow on DD's academic standing??

No, but it might explain her wanting to leave so badly.

 

[intlzncster]

As for UNC's neighbor schools gloating over this- be very careful. God only knows what might be hidden at your own school. Big money sports has a way of corrupting everything it touches. I never dreamed that UConn would ever get sanctioned the way it did. But it happened.

And everyone who examines the circumstances of that particular situation know it was completely BS (see Jay Bilas rant). Thank Mark Emmert for that one.

 

[intlzncster]

This has been huge news here.. The sports talk radio interrupted their programming to broadcast the press conference live.... so did the major NC statewide TV news station. Front page on the front of the Newspaper... Front page on the sports section..... Top of the broadcast on the 12pm, 4pm 5pm 6pm 10pm and 11pm news last night and today. I have 3 of the local TV stations apps on my phone.... lead story there.... got notifications on my phone about this...

And yet, there have been veritiable crickets from ESPN. They know where their bread is buttered.

This is the largest academic scandal I've ever seen.

 

[intlzncster]

Oh, I agree. It is very difficult to equate the two. But the NCAA views UNC as a "blue blood," not UConn. It is disparaging to UConn, which has won three national titles 3 national titles in the last 16 years and has been one of the powerhouses of men's basketball. Nevertheless, for whatever reason, the NCAA seems to have it in for UConn...and not just the men's basketball program.

As an outside observer, it really seems as if the NCAA comes down harder on UConn than other programs. What is a minor violation by UConn is blown up by the NCAA, but the same conduct committed by another school is not judged nearly as harshly.

Four titles in the past 16 yrs, Cam. Four! Very important to get that right. (yes I know it was 3 at the time).

The worst part of the whole thing was the double jeopardy punishment. UCONN failed in the APR department and was docked scholarships. Fine.

Subsequently, the NCAA created a rolling APR rule, which it applied retroactively. UCONN was then punished again (post season ban and JC suspension) under the new rule for the SAME offense. To top it off, UCONN was not allowed to use its most updated scores, which showed enough improvement for them to pass under the new rule. It was a witch hunt to any impartial observer.

 

[Beemer]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think we're gloating or even taking delight in this as much as just feeling like "Finally, the facade is exposed." (For me, anyway.)

Also, NC State had its own athletic issues in the 1980s and early 1990s, and we have paid for it for the past 20-plus years. We're now largely irrelevant among the major college teams. If we're cheating or hiding something, athletic-wise, we're not doing it right or have anything to show for it. (And, also, I'd add we at NC State are very aware of our own transgressions. We did have a chancellor, a provost, and the chair of the trustees resign in 2009, after all.)

I can't speak on behalf of Dookies, but for NC State, there's a long history between the two state schools (both technically being North Carolina's flagship universities) that goes beyond the playing fields that has caused dislike. The adversarial relationships is deep and long, going all the way back to the very founding of NC State and how UNC leaders at the time tried to interfere with that to today, when about 60 percent of the UNC Systems' Board of Governors is comprised of UNC graduates. I don't think it's gloating as much as feeling like finally comeuppance may be coming and maybe there's an opportunity here for a more level playing field. And, more than gloating or pleasure, I think it's anger over long-standing issues that is driving Pack Pride message board fans to be relentless in its pursuit of comeuppance for UNC and in exposing the true "Carolina Way."

Thank you for replying. I wasn't aware of everything you posted but now I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[Beemer]

And yet, there have been veritiable crickets from ESPN. They know where their bread is buttered.

This is the largest academic scandal I've ever seen.

I believe "Outside The Lines" did a story about this when it first came out. I haven't seen anything since but to be honest I don't always watch OTL so I don't know for sure. I would look for them to handle it instead of SportsCenter.

 

[pap49cba]

As an outside observer, it really seems as if the NCAA comes down harder on UConn than other programs. What is a minor violation by UConn is blown up by the NCAA, but the same conduct committed by another school is not judged nearly as harshly.

Perhaps this will help.... From Wikipedia:

University of Connecticut
During his tenure as Chancellor at the University of Connecticut, Emmert oversaw a $1 billion construction project that became ravaged in scandal. Issues, which included more than $100 million lost due to mismanagement and more than 100 fire and safety code violations, did not come to light until after Emmert left for LSU. Memos handwritten on Emmert's stationary in 1998 indicate he was aware of big issues with the construction project. The project became the focus of a state investigation in 2005 and then Governor Rell called it "astonishing failure of oversight and management." Two of Emmert's subordinates were placed on leave and subsequently resigned.

 

[intlzncster]

I believe "Outside The Lines" did a story about this when it first came out. I haven't seen anything since but to be honest I don't always watch OTL so I don't know for sure. I would look for them to handle it instead of SportsCenter.

Yes, but the details released since have been so far above and beyond the pale, it should be the number one story for weeks. It wasn't even listed on their front page yesterday. I don't even think it got a mention on one of the sportscenters. That's ludicrous.

Yet when UCONNs APR issues came out, it was a story for MONTHS.

 

[Beemer]

Yes, but the details released since have been so far above and beyond the pale, it should be the number one story for weeks. It wasn't even listed on their front page yesterday. I don't even think it got a mention on one of the sportscenters. That's ludicrous.

Yet when UCONNs APR issues came out, it was a story for MONTHS.

I know. I wonder if ESPN did that to avoid charges of bias in favor of UConn???? I mean they get charged with that often enough as it is so perhaps they decided to bend over backwards in the other direction.

 

[Vowelguy]

The NCAA will never do the death penalty again.

Particularly so now that the org is in the verge of being toppled by the P5.

SMU was different bc they had been warned and punished and the problem got even worse.

UNCs argument is lately that this was an academic problem since regular students benefited as well as athletes. True. But no doubt that athletes overwhelming benefited. And if the NCAA is concerned about players not getting an education (see UConn) then this has to be a problem.

But the NCAA has investigated this once already and done nothing. I still will be surprised if there are any sanctions.

 

[intlzncster]

UNCs argument is lately that this was an academic problem since regular students benefited as well as athletes. True. But no doubt that athletes overwhelming benefited. And if the NCAA is concerned about players not getting an education (see UConn) then this has to be a problem.

Didn't they create these classes for the athletes in mind? It was only post creation that the rest of the student body caugh on and signed up. I read that somewhere, but unconfirmed. If true, it would go against those that argument.

 

[Icebear]

Yes, that is how it reportedly began and then spread to the broader student body.

 

[Tidepool]

If indeed not much is done by the NCAA with regard to the UNC situation, then it will be really interesting to compare that "who-cares?" attitude with the position that the NCAA is taking in the lawsuit brought by the college athletes who want to unionize and maybe, someday, even get paid something out of the money that the universities make off of them. On the one hand (per the NCAA), the athletes aren't entitled to any of these perks because they are just students who engage in athletics. But if it turns out they are not really students? Oh, well, the NCAA doesn't care about that, either. I look forward to hearing these positions reconciled.

 

[Zorro]

That is true VG, but in the SMU case the problem was simply the remuneration of athletes by overly enthusiastic alums; there was no actual academic fraud committed. B0th my wife and I spent most of our adult lives in the higher education scene, including some lower-level administration, and I can assure you that there is absolutely no way that the administrators at UC were not aware of what was going on, at least in broad outline. When SMU got scragged, the concensus seemed to be that while it was common knowledge that to be successful a program had to cheat, the SMU folks simply were not discreet about what they were doing. The UC case is a horse of an entirely different color, involving a corruption of the very idea of university education. I sincerely hope that this sort of thing is not prevelant. I also hope that the athletes involved sue the pants off of UC, on the grounds of having been enticed into giving up the opportunity for an education.

I remember 60-70 years ago when I was a kid, reading a joke (I think it was in a book by Bennett Cerf called "Try and Stop Me), involving a star quarterback at a major university, who suddenly burst into tears on the bench. His coach said; "Hey, what is the matte with you? You are a star athlete, a bmoc, with girls all over you, and next year you will be a pro and make lots of money. What could be the problem?" And the kid says; "Oh coach, if I could only read and write!" Seemed funny at the time.

 

[ThisJustIn]

Posted this on another thread, but figured I'd stick it here too:

Might be worth would be worth sending as many emails/tweets as you can to the ESPN ombudsman about their completely lack of coverage regarding UNC/Syracuse. Contact Form: Robert LipsyteTwitter: @ESPN_Lipsyte

I know it's not much, but it's something. More than just b!tching on a UCONN fan form at least.

https://www.google.com/search?q=esp...j0.15007j1j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8

 

[j66kicker]

That is true VG, but in the SMU case the problem was simply the remuneration of athletes by overly enthusiastic alums; there was no actual academic fraud committed. B0th my wife and I spent most of our adult lives in the higher education scene, including some lower-level administration, and I can assure you that there is absolutely no way that the administrators at UC were not aware of what was going on, at least in broad outline. When SMU got scragged, the concensus seemed to be that while it was common knowledge that to be successful a program had to cheat, the SMU folks simply were not discreet about what they were doing.

BTW just heard that SMU is going to hire Mac Brown to coach their football team, for $4 million/year, in an attempt to get into the Big 12.