OT: UNC Academic Fraud Investigation

[CL82]

Very good point. Side note...I watched the ESPN "30 for 30" documentary, Pony Excess, which was the documentary film regarding SMU. It was really well done.

But one of the points from that movie is that while the death penalty basically decimated SMU's football program for twenty years, the NCAA has been hesitant to impose the death penalty ever since.

Look at Penn State. That program could have easily been given the death penalty for a year. But with the millions of dollars paid out (and continue to be paid out) to Jerry Sandusky's victims, the NCAA did not go that far.

The UNC academic fraud was systemic and pervasive throughout the Athletics Department and in academic administration. And it went on for 18 years. But the problem with imposing the death penalty is that too many sports are implicated - football, men's basketball, women's basketball, etc. Which ones get the death penalty? Would it be the entire UNC Athletic Department?

Arguably, the men's basketball team should have the 2005 and 2009 titles vacated. There were a multitude of players who were not eligible but for the paper classes and fake grades. That much is evident in the Wainstein Report.

But will the NCAA take the step of vacating the championships for one of the "blue blood" (Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC) programs?

I hate saying this, but I bet the NCAA's prior punishment of the UConn men's basketball team will be worse than what is given to UNC. And that is beyond unfair; it is a tragedy for all student-athletes.

It's hard to imagine being able to justify that. UConn had some players who were not a material part of the team transfer while they were struggling academically, which UConn timely reported to the NCAA. UNC had 18 years of willful fraud that they tried to hide from the NCAA. It is very difficult to equate the two. Yet I wonder if you will be proven right.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

It's hard to imagine being able to justify that. UConn had some players who were not a material part of the team transfer while they were struggling academically, which UConn timely reported to the NCAA. UNC had 18 years of willful fraud that they tried to hide from the NCAA. It is very difficult to equate the two. Yet I wonder if you will be proven right.

Oh, I agree. It is very difficult to equate the two. But the NCAA views UNC as a "blue blood," not UConn. It is disparaging to UConn, which has won three national titles 3 national titles in the last 16 years and has been one of the powerhouses of men's basketball. Nevertheless, for whatever reason, the NCAA seems to have it in for UConn...and not just the men's basketball program.

As an outside observer, it really seems as if the NCAA comes down harder on UConn than other programs. What is a minor violation by UConn is blown up by the NCAA, but the same conduct committed by another school is not judged nearly as harshly.

 

[Beemer]

The place needs an SMU-like death sentence.

I doubt very much this happens. SMU has never recovered from the "death penalty" and I believe that is why the NCAA has not used it since.

 

[j66kicker]

I doubt very much this happens. SMU has never recovered from the "death penalty" and I believe that is why the NCAA has not used it since.

Kentucky mens BB got the death penalty in 1952 and they recovered. San Francisco U self-imposed the death penalty in 1982 (for 4 years) in the face of severe NCAA sanctions. They didn't recover yet, but they have 30 more years before their recovery can be compared to KY's

 

[intlzncster]

Does this cast any shadow on DD's academic standing??

No, but it might explain her wanting to leave so badly.

 

[intlzncster]

As for UNC's neighbor schools gloating over this- be very careful. God only knows what might be hidden at your own school. Big money sports has a way of corrupting everything it touches. I never dreamed that UConn would ever get sanctioned the way it did. But it happened.

And everyone who examines the circumstances of that particular situation know it was completely BS (see Jay Bilas rant). Thank Mark Emmert for that one.

 

[intlzncster]

This has been huge news here.. The sports talk radio interrupted their programming to broadcast the press conference live.... so did the major NC statewide TV news station. Front page on the front of the Newspaper... Front page on the sports section..... Top of the broadcast on the 12pm, 4pm 5pm 6pm 10pm and 11pm news last night and today. I have 3 of the local TV stations apps on my phone.... lead story there.... got notifications on my phone about this...

And yet, there have been veritiable crickets from ESPN. They know where their bread is buttered.

This is the largest academic scandal I've ever seen.

 

[intlzncster]

Oh, I agree. It is very difficult to equate the two. But the NCAA views UNC as a "blue blood," not UConn. It is disparaging to UConn, which has won three national titles 3 national titles in the last 16 years and has been one of the powerhouses of men's basketball. Nevertheless, for whatever reason, the NCAA seems to have it in for UConn...and not just the men's basketball program.

As an outside observer, it really seems as if the NCAA comes down harder on UConn than other programs. What is a minor violation by UConn is blown up by the NCAA, but the same conduct committed by another school is not judged nearly as harshly.

Four titles in the past 16 yrs, Cam. Four! Very important to get that right. (yes I know it was 3 at the time).

The worst part of the whole thing was the double jeopardy punishment. UCONN failed in the APR department and was docked scholarships. Fine.

Subsequently, the NCAA created a rolling APR rule, which it applied retroactively. UCONN was then punished again (post season ban and JC suspension) under the new rule for the SAME offense. To top it off, UCONN was not allowed to use its most updated scores, which showed enough improvement for them to pass under the new rule. It was a witch hunt to any impartial observer.

 

[Beemer]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think we're gloating or even taking delight in this as much as just feeling like "Finally, the facade is exposed." (For me, anyway.)

Also, NC State had its own athletic issues in the 1980s and early 1990s, and we have paid for it for the past 20-plus years. We're now largely irrelevant among the major college teams. If we're cheating or hiding something, athletic-wise, we're not doing it right or have anything to show for it. (And, also, I'd add we at NC State are very aware of our own transgressions. We did have a chancellor, a provost, and the chair of the trustees resign in 2009, after all.)

I can't speak on behalf of Dookies, but for NC State, there's a long history between the two state schools (both technically being North Carolina's flagship universities) that goes beyond the playing fields that has caused dislike. The adversarial relationships is deep and long, going all the way back to the very founding of NC State and how UNC leaders at the time tried to interfere with that to today, when about 60 percent of the UNC Systems' Board of Governors is comprised of UNC graduates. I don't think it's gloating as much as feeling like finally comeuppance may be coming and maybe there's an opportunity here for a more level playing field. And, more than gloating or pleasure, I think it's anger over long-standing issues that is driving Pack Pride message board fans to be relentless in its pursuit of comeuppance for UNC and in exposing the true "Carolina Way."

Thank you for replying. I wasn't aware of everything you posted but now I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[Beemer]

And yet, there have been veritiable crickets from ESPN. They know where their bread is buttered.

This is the largest academic scandal I've ever seen.

I believe "Outside The Lines" did a story about this when it first came out. I haven't seen anything since but to be honest I don't always watch OTL so I don't know for sure. I would look for them to handle it instead of SportsCenter.

 

[pap49cba]

As an outside observer, it really seems as if the NCAA comes down harder on UConn than other programs. What is a minor violation by UConn is blown up by the NCAA, but the same conduct committed by another school is not judged nearly as harshly.

Perhaps this will help.... From Wikipedia:

University of Connecticut
During his tenure as Chancellor at the University of Connecticut, Emmert oversaw a $1 billion construction project that became ravaged in scandal. Issues, which included more than $100 million lost due to mismanagement and more than 100 fire and safety code violations, did not come to light until after Emmert left for LSU. Memos handwritten on Emmert's stationary in 1998 indicate he was aware of big issues with the construction project. The project became the focus of a state investigation in 2005 and then Governor Rell called it "astonishing failure of oversight and management." Two of Emmert's subordinates were placed on leave and subsequently resigned.

 

[intlzncster]

I believe "Outside The Lines" did a story about this when it first came out. I haven't seen anything since but to be honest I don't always watch OTL so I don't know for sure. I would look for them to handle it instead of SportsCenter.

Yes, but the details released since have been so far above and beyond the pale, it should be the number one story for weeks. It wasn't even listed on their front page yesterday. I don't even think it got a mention on one of the sportscenters. That's ludicrous.

Yet when UCONNs APR issues came out, it was a story for MONTHS.

 

[Beemer]

Yes, but the details released since have been so far above and beyond the pale, it should be the number one story for weeks. It wasn't even listed on their front page yesterday. I don't even think it got a mention on one of the sportscenters. That's ludicrous.

Yet when UCONNs APR issues came out, it was a story for MONTHS.

I know. I wonder if ESPN did that to avoid charges of bias in favor of UConn???? I mean they get charged with that often enough as it is so perhaps they decided to bend over backwards in the other direction.

 

[Vowelguy]

The NCAA will never do the death penalty again.

Particularly so now that the org is in the verge of being toppled by the P5.

SMU was different bc they had been warned and punished and the problem got even worse.

UNCs argument is lately that this was an academic problem since regular students benefited as well as athletes. True. But no doubt that athletes overwhelming benefited. And if the NCAA is concerned about players not getting an education (see UConn) then this has to be a problem.

But the NCAA has investigated this once already and done nothing. I still will be surprised if there are any sanctions.

 

[intlzncster]

UNCs argument is lately that this was an academic problem since regular students benefited as well as athletes. True. But no doubt that athletes overwhelming benefited. And if the NCAA is concerned about players not getting an education (see UConn) then this has to be a problem.

Didn't they create these classes for the athletes in mind? It was only post creation that the rest of the student body caugh on and signed up. I read that somewhere, but unconfirmed. If true, it would go against those that argument.

 

[Icebear]

Yes, that is how it reportedly began and then spread to the broader student body.

 

[Tidepool]

If indeed not much is done by the NCAA with regard to the UNC situation, then it will be really interesting to compare that "who-cares?" attitude with the position that the NCAA is taking in the lawsuit brought by the college athletes who want to unionize and maybe, someday, even get paid something out of the money that the universities make off of them. On the one hand (per the NCAA), the athletes aren't entitled to any of these perks because they are just students who engage in athletics. But if it turns out they are not really students? Oh, well, the NCAA doesn't care about that, either. I look forward to hearing these positions reconciled.

 

[Zorro]

That is true VG, but in the SMU case the problem was simply the remuneration of athletes by overly enthusiastic alums; there was no actual academic fraud committed. B0th my wife and I spent most of our adult lives in the higher education scene, including some lower-level administration, and I can assure you that there is absolutely no way that the administrators at UC were not aware of what was going on, at least in broad outline. When SMU got scragged, the concensus seemed to be that while it was common knowledge that to be successful a program had to cheat, the SMU folks simply were not discreet about what they were doing. The UC case is a horse of an entirely different color, involving a corruption of the very idea of university education. I sincerely hope that this sort of thing is not prevelant. I also hope that the athletes involved sue the pants off of UC, on the grounds of having been enticed into giving up the opportunity for an education.

I remember 60-70 years ago when I was a kid, reading a joke (I think it was in a book by Bennett Cerf called "Try and Stop Me), involving a star quarterback at a major university, who suddenly burst into tears on the bench. His coach said; "Hey, what is the matte with you? You are a star athlete, a bmoc, with girls all over you, and next year you will be a pro and make lots of money. What could be the problem?" And the kid says; "Oh coach, if I could only read and write!" Seemed funny at the time.

 

[ThisJustIn]

Posted this on another thread, but figured I'd stick it here too:

Might be worth would be worth sending as many emails/tweets as you can to the ESPN ombudsman about their completely lack of coverage regarding UNC/Syracuse. Contact Form: Robert LipsyteTwitter: @ESPN_Lipsyte

I know it's not much, but it's something. More than just b!tching on a UCONN fan form at least.

https://www.google.com/search?q=esp...j0.15007j1j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8

 

[j66kicker]

That is true VG, but in the SMU case the problem was simply the remuneration of athletes by overly enthusiastic alums; there was no actual academic fraud committed. B0th my wife and I spent most of our adult lives in the higher education scene, including some lower-level administration, and I can assure you that there is absolutely no way that the administrators at UC were not aware of what was going on, at least in broad outline. When SMU got scragged, the concensus seemed to be that while it was common knowledge that to be successful a program had to cheat, the SMU folks simply were not discreet about what they were doing.

BTW just heard that SMU is going to hire Mac Brown to coach their football team, for $4 million/year, in an attempt to get into the Big 12.

 

[Huskies Rule]

Thank you Mrs. Litella.

You go, Emily!

 

[intlzncster]

https://www.google.com/search?q=espn unc academic scandal&oq=espn unc academ&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0.15007j1j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8

Not sure what you are saying, but since the detailed review has been released, there's been 3 stories in the past few days on this from ESPN (according to google).

This is the biggest story in college athletics in the past 40+ years. It has put to the test the concept of the 'student' athlete like nothing before it. It's far worse than any 'paying players' scandal.

There should be tons of content, from reporting to commentary/opinion, both written and video. It should be plastered all over the ESPN landing page and the lead story on every ESPN show in the lineup. imo

 

[Huskies Rule]

This is an appalling scandal, and the repercussions should be harsh. But with all the schadenfreude going around, along with breathtakingly idiotic statements suggesting that all UNC degrees conferred over the last 18 years should be considered worthless, we ought to reconcile ourselves to the fact that these practices are assuredly more widespread than we'd like to think. The scale of the fraud at UNC may or may not be unusual among Div 1 schools. I can assure you that, in the wake of this report, there are many other programs whose personnel is losing sleep over fear of a more widespread investigation. Their saving grace, as others have suggested, is that the NCAA would much rather sweep all of this under the carpet...just too many dollars at stake. But the myth that exists about so-called student/athletes, certainly at many of those institutions with 100,000 seat stadiums to fill, is only that...a myth. Some schools do a better job than others about putting over the deception.

schadenfreude. Love that word. But for me, it's not about taking pleasure in UNC's self-inflicted disaster. It's about NOT seeing the games I love (college sports of all sorts) and the incredible student-athletes playing them becoming the target of ridicule and shame.

 

[j66kicker]

Not sure what you are saying, but since the detailed review has been released, there's been 3 stories in the past few days on this from ESPN (according to google).

This is the biggest story in college athletics in the past 40+ years. It has put to the test the concept of the 'student' athlete like nothing before it.

There should be tons of content, from reporting to commentary/opinion, both written and video. It should be plastered all over the ESPN landing page and the lead story on every ESPN show in the lineup. imo

SI just got burned on their big multi-week/multi-issue expose on abuses at Oklahoma State. The NCAA investigated and finally came out last week having found very little other than a few "Mo'ne-type" violations. Not axactly the same thing - SI initiated the OSU investigation, not an internal whitleblower - but ESPN might be a little gunshy.....?

 

[Bgillon]

The fact that non athletes took advantage of the "courses" is irrelevant to the point that UNC had an unfair advantage over their opponents. Likewise where it started is irrelevant. The "courses" were created by university employees, sanctioned by coaches, senior managers smelled something but didn't do anything, and most importantly over 3,100 "students" took advantage of them but the administration knew nothing about the situation.

Here is a question that I would also love to get answered - could this have happened in any other department like the english department or the philosophy department? of course not! Because their curriculum are scrutinized. No one would dare scrutinize the African Studies department and its curriculum for fear of being called racist.

The president of the ACC is the former AD at UNC during some of the years in question. Should he keep his job?