OT Showtime Lakers vs this years Warriors, is Magic right?

[auror]

Only thing I have and it means nothing is this:

The athlete is definitely better now.

The basketball players overall, IQ etc were better back then.

The guards and wings of today would be a tough defensive assignment for the players yesteryear.

There is no team who can guard the actual centers of the past because there aren't any anymore so the Kareem's, Wilt's and such would have a field day in today's game.

1) Agree. Sports movement science and fitness are insane compared to what they used to be.
2) Disagree emphatically. This is a crutch argument. The game is so much more mental now. There is so much more coaching now (each team has like 8 coaches plus a stats guy and video interns, etc.): defensive rotations, switching, sub patterns, player tendencies. These guys are also playing at highly competitive levels from early ages. It seems like the game is simpler now because it used to be more free-flowing and creative, but we've isolated what works the best now and we just hammer that into the ground... because it works the best.
3) Agree for basically the reasons of #1.
4) As we've agreed, guys are bigger and faster now, they could defend those guys adequately (they'd still be good, but they wouldn't break the game). We don't select for great post centers because they tend to be slow and doing pick and rolls for lob dunks (Drummond, Jordan, Howard, Chandler) is actually a higher % shot than backing a guy down, doing some post moves, and taking a contested hook. Or guys add a jump shot and become versatile and have post game plus a jump shot (Davis, Towns). Al Jefferson hasn't exactly lit the league on fire, but he's very skilled. The post bigs exist, they just don't have the same impact because the game has left that behind to some extent.

 

[mauconnfan]

You can disagree as emphatically as you wish on #2 I in turn do the same respectfully. Cerebral players now? No they are much more athletic and don't get me wrong there are some very intellectual players, the best of them in James and Curry amongst the most, but many are purely athletic and uber talented. Again, they can play but back in the day you would have never seen plays from superstars like Durant and Westbrook down the stretch in their champ game from stars of the past. Easy to single this out because it just happened but I see so many awful passes these days and turnovers it's incredible and many have to do with exactly what we speak of. The coaches may be better with all that they need to instill but this does not make the players smarter and they aren't.

And #4 is toss up - this guys are backing down smaller guys and dunking, I am sure Wilt would have had plenty to say about that as would Russell and so many others. The game has changed and it's hard to say who would be better, but I know they aren't guarding Kareem or Wilt amongst others because there are no 7 footers left in the game that are any good.

Pure opinion

 

[caw]

You're right about the switching on D, but one of the main reasons the death lineup is so lethal on offense is that all 5 guys can hit a 3 at a level that demands respect (they shot 35%, 38%, 38%, 42%, 45%). When that happens, the defense gets stretched too far and off-the-ball screens and back cuts become impossible to help on without over-extending and giving up a wide-open corner 3. So against the death lineup your choices are layups (70% for 2 points, 1.4PPP) and corner 3's (~50% for 3 points 1.5PPP), unless you're able to keep everyone in front of you, which is very difficult with the craftiness of Curry and the passing of Draymond and Iguodala. And if you play great D, Curry just hits a 3 in your face anyways.

Just having one guy (Rodman) who needs to be in the lane to be effective, that you can sag off of in the lane, go under screens, etc. hurts your spacing considerably (see Roberson, Andre). The help is just that much closer to the basket and easier to contest the cuts. Harper was also a career 29% 3-point shooter, although perhaps he'd be better in this era (he didn't improve as his career went on though, he shot 19% in '97-'98).

OKC gave the Warriors fits with their ability to switch and length. I think the Bulls could do similar things. Jordan and Pippens defensive abilities were outstanding. Only Leonard comes close IMO as a defender in today's game. That doesn't even include Rodman and Harper who were very much plus defenders. You say that even one player that has to play near the rim hurts spacing but again OKC played a lot of minutes with a guy (or two) that never has shown to be a good shooter on the floor.

IMO the OKC series actually showed how the Bulls could win and I'd take Jordan/Pippen over Durant/Westbrook to close the series (which OKC should have done in game 6).

 

[auror]

OKC gave the Warriors fits with their ability to switch and length. I think the Bulls could do similar things. Jordan and Pippens defensive abilities were outstanding. Only Leonard comes close IMO as a defender in today's game. That doesn't even include Rodman and Harper who were very much plus defenders. You say that even one player that has to play near the rim hurts spacing but again OKC played a lot of minutes with a guy (or two) that never has shown to be a good shooter on the floor.

IMO the OKC series actually showed how the Bulls could win and I'd take Jordan/Pippen over Durant/Westbrook to close the series (which OKC should have done in game 6).

My point was the Bulls' death lineup would not be nearly as effective on offense as GSW's in general, not that Chicago couldn't play great D (they absolutely could as I say in the first sentence).

*EDIT*

IMO the OKC series actually showed how the Bulls could win and I'd take Jordan/Pippen over Durant/Westbrook to close the series (which OKC should have done in game 6).

IMO, Game 6 showed how you can't beat the Warriors if they are hot, doesn't matter who you are or if the game is at home.

 

[auror]

You can disagree as emphatically as you wish on #2 I in turn do the same respectfully. Cerebral players now? No they are much more athletic and don't get me wrong there are some very intellectual players, the best of them in James and Curry amongst the most, but many are purely athletic and uber talented. Again, they can play but back in the day you would have never seen plays from superstars like Durant and Westbrook down the stretch in their champ game from stars of the past. Easy to single this out because it just happened but I see so many awful passes these days and turnovers it's incredible and many have to do with exactly what we speak of. The coaches may be better with all that they need to instill but this does not make the players smarter and they aren't.

Team turnover % (pace adjusted) are substantially down in this modern era from past times. League average is 14% now and it was 20% in the 70's. It's been a steady decline that troughed in 2008 (and has maintained relatively consistent since). In the mid-80s it was around 17%. Teams average about 100 possessions, so that's about 3-6 turnovers per game (per team!) down from the past. Basketball IQ is up.

 

[mauconnfan]

You know more than me so I will read and learn. You make solid arguments no doubt but I will disagree, not emphatically though, with a few still. But all good. IQ is not up no matter what stats you would like to throw at me but you do a nice job of making me think about it

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

IMO, Game 6 showed how you can't beat the Warriors if they are hot, doesn't matter who you are or if the game is at home.

While this is true, many, many other points during the OKC series showed how GS's tendency to take quarters off, possessions off, make bad decisions in some key spots of the game, and have mental lapses would be their death knell. Jackson had that team operating like a machine. They took no time off, understood how to pounce on every single opportunity presented, and would in all likelihood make GS pay for all of those times they screw up to the point that they'd have to be hitting 17 3s to remain in the game. That plus KD and Westbrook's down the stretch decision-making in games 5 and 6 were so awful that if you substitute in the greatest down the stretch duo of all time, GS wouldn't be able to rely on some wild Westbrook drive and chuck or KD post up and heave.

 

[James]

i find these arguments comparing a team from 30 years to one playing now to be impractical. It was a completely different game with different rules. Also, in sports, evolution/rise of technology is wildly apparent, athletes are simply better today than they were years ago. As @auror noted no team ever could stop GSW if they get hot, they give 'getting hot' a new meaning. And eventually, they will get hot in a 7 game series. Back to back titles with the greatest regular season of all time, this team is ridiculous.

 

[auror]

While this is true, many, many other points during the OKC series showed how GS's tendency to take quarters off, possessions off, make bad decisions in some key spots of the game, and have mental lapses would be their death knell. Jackson had that team operating like a machine. They took no time off, understood how to pounce on every single opportunity presented, and would in all likelihood make GS pay for all of those times they screw up to the point that they'd have to be hitting 17 3s to remain in the game. That plus KD and Westbrook's down the stretch decision-making in games 5 and 6 were so awful that if you substitute in the greatest down the stretch duo of all time, GS wouldn't be able to rely on some wild Westbrook drive and chuck or KD post up and heave.

I believe you're overselling GSW taking plays off and underselling the impact of variance from shot-making on scorelines, ie it appears they're mentally out of it when in reality they're just missing shots and that leads to OKC transition opportunities, etc. Their turnovers per 100 poss were down in the conf finals from the regular season, for example, and essentially identical to the Bulls' playoff TOs/100 during the '97 year (farthest back NBA.com/stats goes back). It goes without saying that taking a lot of 3's increases that variance.

 

[Kitaman]

Magic is generally listed no worse than 5-8 all-time, some put in the top 4. And I really think he is underrated.

He may not be Jordan (the best to me) but he is in Jordan's category, along with perhaps 5 others. In their primes if you had to pick teams and Jordan was selected number one and the other team got Magic, no one would be disappointed. Prime Kobe is another great and also no disappointment as a 2nd pick either, and he too is in Jordan's category.

Just saying that its a compliment to be in Jordan's world. Lebron is slowly moving the other direction. He won't (or can't?) take over games like the three named above.

 

[TheChamps990411]

Could we put away the better athletes today nonsense? I highly doubt todays game would be too athletic for Magic,jordan,Zeke,Kareem etc. etc.

 

[Scoe]

Alright lets do a best of 7 series on whatifsports which Lakers team should I match up against these Warriors.

 

[Scoe]

I think it depends on the situation entirely. Either team dropped into the others age and told to play the next week would likely lose because of the rule changes. I can't imagine all the fouls the Bulls would be called for and how the zone rules would make things difficult for them. In the reverse, the Warriors would be whining for all the uncalled fouls and the inability to basically zone with Rodmans man.

Assuming you give each team a year to adjust to the new era, I'd take the Bulls but it would be a toss up. I just take the Bulls because I trust Jordan to close the game over Curry by a hair.

Curry and Klay with a 22 foot line would be sick, not to mention Green and their other shooters. The offense would be lethal if given time to adjust to the way things are (not) called. Their defense would take a hit though without being able to play with the current NBA zone rules and without those, I'm not sure they could stop Jordan in the post (that is the one place where he is a million times better than Lebron). Either way it would be a good series.

Bringing the Bulls to 2015 and giving them a year to adjust and I think their defense would be even better than it was in 96, and easily the best in the NBA this year. IMO they are built for this era of switching and pick and roll defense. They potentially have a better version of the Warriors death lineup with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Rodman and Kerr. The Warriors death lineup would meet its match. True you don't have to defend Rodman in the traditional sense but you also can't leave him because of his rebounding ability. However, the Bulls offense would be considerably hindered by the three point line being back to what it is. The question is whether the D makes up for the O and if the Bulls can integrate a fantastic three point shooter into the offense to open everything up inside with Steve Kerr and he would be lethal in this era mainly because he would be more of an offensive focus. Just my opinion but I think he gives the Bulls the edge bc he allows them to adjust to the new way of play.

Ill do a best of 7 series right now 2016 GSW vs 96 Bulls 2-2-1-1-1 format GS gets the homecourt due to a better record

 

[Scoe]

I think it depends on the situation entirely. Either team dropped into the others age and told to play the next week would likely lose because of the rule changes. I can't imagine all the fouls the Bulls would be called for and how the zone rules would make things difficult for them. In the reverse, the Warriors would be whining for all the uncalled fouls and the inability to basically zone with Rodmans man.

Assuming you give each team a year to adjust to the new era, I'd take the Bulls but it would be a toss up. I just take the Bulls because I trust Jordan to close the game over Curry by a hair.

Curry and Klay with a 22 foot line would be sick, not to mention Green and their other shooters. The offense would be lethal if given time to adjust to the way things are (not) called. Their defense would take a hit though without being able to play with the current NBA zone rules and without those, I'm not sure they could stop Jordan in the post (that is the one place where he is a million times better than Lebron). Either way it would be a good series.

Bringing the Bulls to 2015 and giving them a year to adjust and I think their defense would be even better than it was in 96, and easily the best in the NBA this year. IMO they are built for this era of switching and pick and roll defense. They potentially have a better version of the Warriors death lineup with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Rodman and Kerr. The Warriors death lineup would meet its match. True you don't have to defend Rodman in the traditional sense but you also can't leave him because of his rebounding ability. However, the Bulls offense would be considerably hindered by the three point line being back to what it is. The question is whether the D makes up for the O and if the Bulls can integrate a fantastic three point shooter into the offense to open everything up inside with Steve Kerr and he would be lethal in this era mainly because he would be more of an offensive focus. Just my opinion but I think he gives the Bulls the edge bc he allows them to adjust to the new way of play.

Game 1 @ Oracle
112-103 GS 1-0 GS
stats- MJ 40 pts, 25, 10 and 6 Curry 28 pts, Green 25, 7 and 8 with 5 blks Thompson 16 Barnes 23

Game 2 @ Oracle 2-0 GS
98-84 GS
stats- MJ 26, Curry 17, 13 and 8 Green 10 pts, Thompson 17, Iguodala 14, Livingston 10, Ezelie 8

Game 3 @ United Center
100-91 Bulls 2-1 GS
MJ 26 pts 17 reb 6 asst, Pippen 16 and 8, Rodman 8 pts 17 reb 6 asst, Wennington 8 pts, Jack Haley 10 pts
GS 11/33 from 3 Chicago 3/10 from 3

Game 4 @ United Center
121-102 GS 3-1 GS
Green 15, 13 and 8 Curry 17 and 12, Thompson 25

Game 5 @ Oracle
96-86 Bulls 3-2 GS
Pippen 12, 7 and 8 MJ 34 pts 10 asst, Rodman 8 pts 22 reb, Kukoc 18

Game 6 @ United Center
97-88 Bulls series tied 3-3
MJ 23, 9 and 5 Pippen 19, 4 and 5 Rodman 9 and 19, Kukoc 17, 9 and 7 Longley 13 and 6

Game 7 @ Oracle
97-86 Bulls win series 4-3
Curry 30 Thompson 7 pts 3/14 shooting MJ 37, 11 and 5 and 5 steals Pippen 14 and 11, Rodman 11 and 14, Kukoc 6, 5 and 8 Kerr 9

 

[KemBuckets21]

Game 1 @ Oracle
112-103 GS 1-0 GS
stats- MJ 40 pts, 25, 10 and 6 Curry 28 pts, Green 25, 7 and 8 with 5 blks Thompson 16 Barnes 23

Game 2 @ Oracle 2-0 GS
98-84 GS
stats- MJ 26, Curry 17, 13 and 8 Green 10 pts, Thompson 17, Iguodala 14, Livingston 10, Ezelie 8

Game 3 @ United Center
100-91 Bulls 2-1 GS
MJ 26 pts 17 reb 6 asst, Pippen 16 and 8, Rodman 8 pts 17 reb 6 asst, Wennington 8 pts, Jack Haley 10 pts
GS 11/33 from 3 Chicago 3/10 from 3

Game 4 @ United Center
121-102 GS 3-1 GS
Green 15, 13 and 8 Curry 17 and 12, Thompson 25

Game 5 @ Oracle
96-86 Bulls 3-2 GS
Pippen 12, 7 and 8 MJ 34 pts 10 asst, Rodman 8 pts 22 reb, Kukoc 18

Game 6 @ United Center
97-88 Bulls series tied 3-3
MJ 23, 9 and 5 Pippen 19, 4 and 5 Rodman 9 and 19, Kukoc 17, 9 and 7 Longley 13 and 6

Game 7 @ Oracle
97-86 Bulls win series 4-3
Curry 30 Thompson 7 pts 3/14 shooting MJ 37, 11 and 5 and 5 steals Pippen 14 and 11, Rodman 11 and 14, Kukoc 6, 5 and 8 Kerr 9

It would be interesting to see Kerr team playing for the team he is coaching against. That would be the most interesting part of this whole exercise.

 

[joober jones]

Showtime Lakers. The toughness factor puts them over the top.

 

[Scoe]

So there you have it the Bulls overcame a 3-1 series deficit it took them some time to adjust to GSW offense.

 

[Scoe]

I did it. 84-85 lakers v present day warriors. going to do a sim of some other teams too. 110 lakers - 96 warriors. highlights include: Kareem was efficient for 20 pts on 10/15, Klay was held to 9 points on 3/12 shooting, and Draymond wasn't too great 14 pts 7 TO's. That's annoying to read down there , but make sense of it, if you want. Just a copy and paste of the box score.

1984-85 Magic Johnson* 34 6/12 0/0 2/2 1 9 9 0 3 1 0 14
1984-85 James Worthy* 32 7/15 0/0 1/2 0 6 2 2 1 1 3 15
1984-85 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 31 10/15 0/0 0/2 2 9 4 2 0 2 4 20
1984-85 Byron Scott* 28 5/15 0/0 0/0 2 5 4 0 2 2 1 10
1984-85 Michael Cooper 24 2/4 0/0 0/0 0 1 3 0 0 2 1 4
1984-85 Kurt Rambis* 21 1/3 0/0 1/2 3 9 1 0 1 2 3 3
1984-85 Larry Spriggs 16 6/7 0/0 3/3 1 2 2 0 1 0 2 15
1984-85 Jamaal Wilkes 15 6/10 0/0 4/4 2 3 1 0 2 0 0 16
1984-85 Bob McAdoo 14 3/6 0/0 0/0 0 5 1 0 0 2 1 6
1984-85 Mitch Kupchak 13 1/3 0/0 1/2 1 2 0 0 0 0 1 3
1984-85 Ronnie Lester 11 0/1 0/0 2/2 0 1 2 0 2 2 1 2
1984-85 Chuck Nevitt 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1984-85 Earl Jones 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1984-85 Mike McGee 1 1/1 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
TOTALS 48/92 0/0 14/19 12 52 29 4 12 14 17 110
52.2% 0% 73.7%
2015-16 Golden State Warriors


PLAYER MIN FGM/FGA 3PM/3PA FTM/FTA OREB REB AST BLK STL TO PF Tyler Phommachanh
2015-16 Draymond Green* 36 4/8 1/3 5/11 0 2 6 3 1 7 4 14
2015-16 Klay Thompson* 35 3/12 3/10 0/0 0 3 4 0 0 3 1 9
2015-16 Stephen Curry* 34 7/15 2/7 9/10 1 8 5 1 3 4 2 25
2015-16 Harrison Barnes* 33 3/11 0/1 2/2 1 2 2 1 2 2 2 8
2015-16 Andre Iguodala 28 5/6 1/1 0/0 1 4 1 0 1 2 0 11
2015-16 Shaun Livingston 22 7/14 0/0 0/0 1 4 2 0 1 1 2 14
2015-16 Andrew Bogut* 16 1/2 0/0 0/0 1 9 2 3 0 0 3 2
2015-16 Festus Ezeli 10 3/3 0/0 0/0 1 5 1 1 0 0 0 6
2015-16 Leandro Barbosa 9 1/5 0/1 0/0 0 0 2 0 0 0 2 2
2015-16 Marreese Speights 7 1/2 0/0 0/0 2 4 1 1 0 1 1 2
2015-16 Ian Clark 6 0/2 0/1 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
2015-16 Jason Thompson 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2015-16 Anderson Varejao 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2015-16 Kevon Looney 1 0/1 0/1 0/0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0
2015-16 James Michael McAdoo 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2015-16 Brandon Rush 1 1/1 1/1 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3
TOTALS 36/82 8/26 16/23 9 42 26 10 8 22 17 96
43.9% 30.8% 69.6%

Very interesting I'm sure Magic was talking about the 86-87 Lakers team though Michael Thompson wasn't on the 85 team but that would be a great series too.

 

[Huskies4ever]

Is magic right?...........Yes.

Magic: My 'Showtime' Lakers would beat Warriors

That would be one hell of a matchup

bump

 

[Scoe]

Lebron saw how MJ came back from 3-1 and pulled it off.

 

[Jaker]

Not one person on the current GS or Cavs squad could guard Kareem.

 

[Scoe]

Is magic right?......Yes.


bump

Well we can do a series of this years Cavs against one of Magic's teams.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Not one person on the current GS or Cavs squad could guard Kareem.

Very true, though the game has moved away from the type of player Kareem was. Tim Duncan is one of the last dominant post-up big men in the game right now.

 

[Chief00]

I think Cleveland exposed the Warriors a little. A good, intense and physical defense can stifle the smooth flowing Warrior offense to some extent.

I would pick the Lakers but rules have changed. Using 1980's rules - really no contest - with today's rules a closer game.

 

[EBonz30]

I think Cleveland exposed the Warriors a little. A good, intense and physical defense can stifle the smooth flowing Warrior offense to some extent.

I would pick the Lakers but rules have changed. Using 1980's rules - really no contest - with today's rules a closer game.

Cavs defense is not good and wasn't good, consistently missed assignments, leaving shooters wide open, not even guarded. Warriors were bad in the series, Curry especially, Thompson was below average...

Also, Love, Irving, Frye, And JR are all below average to bad defenders, 4 of their top 8 players....

Let's all be honest here, King James showed why he is one of the three greatest players of all time, he truly carried a bad basketball team to a championship. Really just unreal what we all just saw. I'm still in awe and truly shocked by what just happen.

The Bulls and Lakers teams would smoke this Warrior team.