OT Showtime Lakers vs this years Warriors, is Magic right?

[Scoe]

Magic: My 'Showtime' Lakers would beat Warriors

That would be one hell of a matchup

 

[Kitaman]

Cooper on Curry would be a sight. But Jabbar would be the difference maker. Worthy, Jabbar and Magic are HOFers. So I would agree.

 

[Scoe]

Yep I'll take the showtime Lakers, you can always do a simulation on whatifsports.com

 

[UConnSwag11]

different times, different medicine and training, different rules, different ways of travel etc... hard to do, but i'd choose lakers

 

[champs99and04]

I think the Warriors would beat all these retro teams pretty handily. It isn't a slam on them, the game has just evolved. If we're talking about who was more dominant within their era, it's a different discussion.

 

[TheChamps990411]

I think the Warriors would beat all these retro teams pretty handily. It isn't a slam on them, the game has just evolved. If we're talking about who was more dominant within their era, it's a different discussion.

Respectfully but completely disagree.

 

[80shusky]

So the problem with the different era argument is that if the same players, Magic, Worthy etc. in their prime, were playing today making it actually possible for them to play today's Warriors they would conceivably be as "evolved" as the current players are because they would be playing in the same era. They were elite athletes even if the game was played a little differently. With the new pass interference rules in the NFL for example average wide receivers put up big numbers now. That doesn't mean Steve Largent or Jerry Rice aren't athletic enough to play with them. Just so we remember how athletic some of these guys were, and don't pick on their shorts!

 

[auror]

Warriors are more dominant this year against a tougher league than the Lakers were in '86-'87. So yes, I think they'd beat them more often in a series than not.

 

[Scoe]

Do a series best of 7 in a 2-2-1-1-1 format GS gets home court obviously. Go to whatifsports.com

 

[Scoe]

Cooper on Curry would be a sight. But Jabbar would be the difference maker. Worthy, Jabbar and Magic are HOFers. So I would agree.

Cooper and Iguodala would be huge keys in this series. Cooper on Curry and Iguodala on Magic.

 

[Hoophound]

Nobody really guarded Magic. You have to watch Magic and remember he was 6'9"and his point guard skills were so far beyond everyone else's it was laughable. He pretty much did what he wanted and he facilitated others a lot. Basically, guarding Magic tightly just made him better at finding other people. He did so much damage in the open court, man to man D didn't really matter.

The prime Lakers were better but the 3 pointer changes things. I've seen high school teams lose by 30 then come back two weeks later for a rematch and play the Warriors style and beat the team that crushed them earlier by 10-15 points. The 3 is the great equalizer. It used to give less talented teams a way to compete with bigger, more athletic teams shooting mostly 2's. Now, the 3 is becoming the big skill and because it is worth more points, it is tough to compete if you can't shoot it really well.

The Warriors probably win this matchup coming into it day one. However, the Lakers would quickly adapt and start shooting more 3's if they were put in today's league. Within a few months the Lakers would smoke them every time. Showtime had several good shooters. Magic, Scott, Cooper and Worthy would all be shooting the 3 far more often in today's game.

 

[Scoe]

Wanna do a matchup on what if sports.com best of 7 series in a 2-2-1-1-1 format GS gets home court.

 

[KemBuckets21]

I did it. 84-85 lakers v present day warriors. going to do a sim of some other teams too. 110 lakers - 96 warriors. highlights include: Kareem was efficient for 20 pts on 10/15, Klay was held to 9 points on 3/12 shooting, and Draymond wasn't too great 14 pts 7 TO's. That's annoying to read down there , but make sense of it, if you want. Just a copy and paste of the box score.

1984-85 Magic Johnson* 34 6/12 0/0 2/2 1 9 9 0 3 1 0 14
1984-85 James Worthy* 32 7/15 0/0 1/2 0 6 2 2 1 1 3 15
1984-85 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 31 10/15 0/0 0/2 2 9 4 2 0 2 4 20
1984-85 Byron Scott* 28 5/15 0/0 0/0 2 5 4 0 2 2 1 10
1984-85 Michael Cooper 24 2/4 0/0 0/0 0 1 3 0 0 2 1 4
1984-85 Kurt Rambis* 21 1/3 0/0 1/2 3 9 1 0 1 2 3 3
1984-85 Larry Spriggs 16 6/7 0/0 3/3 1 2 2 0 1 0 2 15
1984-85 Jamaal Wilkes 15 6/10 0/0 4/4 2 3 1 0 2 0 0 16
1984-85 Bob McAdoo 14 3/6 0/0 0/0 0 5 1 0 0 2 1 6
1984-85 Mitch Kupchak 13 1/3 0/0 1/2 1 2 0 0 0 0 1 3
1984-85 Ronnie Lester 11 0/1 0/0 2/2 0 1 2 0 2 2 1 2
1984-85 Chuck Nevitt 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1984-85 Earl Jones 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1984-85 Mike McGee 1 1/1 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
TOTALS 48/92 0/0 14/19 12 52 29 4 12 14 17 110
52.2% 0% 73.7%
2015-16 Golden State Warriors


PLAYER MIN FGM/FGA 3PM/3PA FTM/FTA OREB REB AST BLK STL TO PF Tyler Phommachanh
2015-16 Draymond Green* 36 4/8 1/3 5/11 0 2 6 3 1 7 4 14
2015-16 Klay Thompson* 35 3/12 3/10 0/0 0 3 4 0 0 3 1 9
2015-16 Stephen Curry* 34 7/15 2/7 9/10 1 8 5 1 3 4 2 25
2015-16 Harrison Barnes* 33 3/11 0/1 2/2 1 2 2 1 2 2 2 8
2015-16 Andre Iguodala 28 5/6 1/1 0/0 1 4 1 0 1 2 0 11
2015-16 Shaun Livingston 22 7/14 0/0 0/0 1 4 2 0 1 1 2 14
2015-16 Andrew Bogut* 16 1/2 0/0 0/0 1 9 2 3 0 0 3 2
2015-16 Festus Ezeli 10 3/3 0/0 0/0 1 5 1 1 0 0 0 6
2015-16 Leandro Barbosa 9 1/5 0/1 0/0 0 0 2 0 0 0 2 2
2015-16 Marreese Speights 7 1/2 0/0 0/0 2 4 1 1 0 1 1 2
2015-16 Ian Clark 6 0/2 0/1 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
2015-16 Jason Thompson 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2015-16 Anderson Varejao 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2015-16 Kevon Looney 1 0/1 0/1 0/0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0
2015-16 James Michael McAdoo 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2015-16 Brandon Rush 1 1/1 1/1 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3
TOTALS 36/82 8/26 16/23 9 42 26 10 8 22 17 96
43.9% 30.8% 69.6%

 

[Lefty2one]

All depends on what era's rules you're playing by. The Warriors aren't beating any teams from the 80/90s if you're playing by the rules from that era. Just look at what's happening to Curry when the refs let the D be physical with him off-ball. Without modern zones GSW wouldn't have a prayer of containing Kareem (or any great center of yesteryear).

If we're playing by today's rules then it'd be much more interesting but I'd still go with the Lakeshow. The hypothetical of GSW facing MJ's Bulls is silly though, that's a nightmare matchup for the Warriors. If they were playing by 90s rules I don't think GSW would win a game.

 

[lne001]

I compared some league averages from today to those from 1985. The average height (6' 7") and age (27) are exactly the same, but today's players weigh 10 lbs more on average. Free throw percentages are identical. A/TO ratios are identical. The only real difference is that today teams average 8.5 made 3's per game versus 3.3 30 years ago, while shooting at a higher percentage. Teams in 1985 averaged 110 pts per game versus 102 pts per game today. What does all this mean? I have no idea, although I don't see any real improvements in skill levels except for 3 pt shooting %, and this perhaps at the expense of the mid-range game.

 

[Walker11]

One thing going for the Lakers is that the talent pool was less spread out with 8 fewer teams.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I think the Warriors would beat all these retro teams pretty handily. It isn't a slam on them, the game has just evolved. If we're talking about who was more dominant within their era, it's a different discussion.

Not sure if you're including the 96 Bulls in the "retro" category, but from watching GS play this postseason, I cannot fathom how that Bulls team wouldn't have the Warriors for lunch. Dennis Rodman would have Draymond Green thrown out of every single game in addition to dominating him on the glass. This team has the most wins all-time but there is not a chance in hell, even if they win the title, that they're the best team ever. Bad decision-making all over the court, careless with the basketball, and frequently bailed out by Curry being an incredible shooter. Over time, that's not a recipe for success when repeatedly playing a great team. Bulls in 5.

 

[auror]

I did it. 84-85 lakers v present day warriors. going to do a sim of some other teams too. 110 lakers - 96 warriors. highlights include: Kareem was efficient for 20 pts on 10/15, Klay was held to 9 points on 3/12 shooting, and Draymond wasn't too great 14 pts 7 TO's. That's annoying to read down there , but make sense of it, if you want. Just a copy and paste of the box score.

1984-85 Magic Johnson* 34 6/12 0/0 2/2 1 9 9 0 3 1 0 14
1984-85 James Worthy* 32 7/15 0/0 1/2 0 6 2 2 1 1 3 15
1984-85 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 31 10/15 0/0 0/2 2 9 4 2 0 2 4 20
1984-85 Byron Scott* 28 5/15 0/0 0/0 2 5 4 0 2 2 1 10
1984-85 Michael Cooper 24 2/4 0/0 0/0 0 1 3 0 0 2 1 4
1984-85 Kurt Rambis* 21 1/3 0/0 1/2 3 9 1 0 1 2 3 3
1984-85 Larry Spriggs 16 6/7 0/0 3/3 1 2 2 0 1 0 2 15
1984-85 Jamaal Wilkes 15 6/10 0/0 4/4 2 3 1 0 2 0 0 16
1984-85 Bob McAdoo 14 3/6 0/0 0/0 0 5 1 0 0 2 1 6
1984-85 Mitch Kupchak 13 1/3 0/0 1/2 1 2 0 0 0 0 1 3
1984-85 Ronnie Lester 11 0/1 0/0 2/2 0 1 2 0 2 2 1 2
1984-85 Chuck Nevitt 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1984-85 Earl Jones 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1984-85 Mike McGee 1 1/1 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
TOTALS 48/92 0/0 14/19 12 52 29 4 12 14 17 110
52.2% 0% 73.7%
2015-16 Golden State Warriors


PLAYER MIN FGM/FGA 3PM/3PA FTM/FTA OREB REB AST BLK STL TO PF Tyler Phommachanh
2015-16 Draymond Green* 36 4/8 1/3 5/11 0 2 6 3 1 7 4 14
2015-16 Klay Thompson* 35 3/12 3/10 0/0 0 3 4 0 0 3 1 9
2015-16 Stephen Curry* 34 7/15 2/7 9/10 1 8 5 1 3 4 2 25
2015-16 Harrison Barnes* 33 3/11 0/1 2/2 1 2 2 1 2 2 2 8
2015-16 Andre Iguodala 28 5/6 1/1 0/0 1 4 1 0 1 2 0 11
2015-16 Shaun Livingston 22 7/14 0/0 0/0 1 4 2 0 1 1 2 14
2015-16 Andrew Bogut* 16 1/2 0/0 0/0 1 9 2 3 0 0 3 2
2015-16 Festus Ezeli 10 3/3 0/0 0/0 1 5 1 1 0 0 0 6
2015-16 Leandro Barbosa 9 1/5 0/1 0/0 0 0 2 0 0 0 2 2
2015-16 Marreese Speights 7 1/2 0/0 0/0 2 4 1 1 0 1 1 2
2015-16 Ian Clark 6 0/2 0/1 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
2015-16 Jason Thompson 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2015-16 Anderson Varejao 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2015-16 Kevon Looney 1 0/1 0/1 0/0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0
2015-16 James Michael McAdoo 1 0/0 0/0 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2015-16 Brandon Rush 1 1/1 1/1 0/0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3
TOTALS 36/82 8/26 16/23 9 42 26 10 8 22 17 96
43.9% 30.8% 69.6%

So you simmed it one time and it had the Warriors shoot 8/26 from 3 (including 5/17 from Curry/Thompson) and the Warriors lost. I would not exactly say that would be indicative.

 

[Chin Diesel]

So the problem with the different era argument is that if the same players, Magic, Worthy etc. in their prime, were playing today making it actually possible for them to play today's Warriors they would conceivably be as "evolved" as the current players are because they would be playing in the same era. They were elite athletes even if the game was played a little differently. With the new pass interference rules in the NFL for example average wide receivers put up big numbers now. That doesn't mean Steve Largent or Jerry Rice aren't athletic enough to play with them. Just so we remember how athletic some of these guys were, and don't pick on their shorts!

The Magic wrap around the back no look pass at the :45 mark is prototypical Magic. Unreal. At full speed without any hesitation.

Magic is generally listed no worse than 5-8 all-time, some put in the top 4. And I really think he is underrated.

 

[bmayuc]

One thing going for the Lakers is that the talent pool was less spread out with 8 fewer teams.

yea, but a much smaller pool. Magic played in Pre-USSR breakup, Pre-Dream-Team, Pre Global talent pool.

same argument as pre-integration MLB stats.

 

[champs99and04]

Not sure if you're including the 96 Bulls in the "retro" category, but from watching GS play this postseason, I cannot fathom how that Bulls team wouldn't have the Warriors for lunch. Dennis Rodman would have Draymond Green thrown out of every single game in addition to dominating him on the glass. This team has the most wins all-time but there is not a chance in hell, even if they win the title, that they're the best team ever. Bad decision-making all over the court, careless with the basketball, and frequently bailed out by Curry being an incredible shooter. Over time, that's not a recipe for success when repeatedly playing a great team. Bulls in 5.

No, I lump them in too. Chicago has better players if you're going to go down the list, and it really has nothing to do with the '96 Bulls as a team as much as it does the league they played in. So much more sophistication on both ends that if you're taking the old-age principles and applying them to the modern game, you're going to have trouble no matter who your players are.

This is admittedly nothing more than a hunch/educated guess, but that's no more than anybody else is working with. Moreover, 73 wins, winning a second straight title...not sure how you can say "not a chance in hell" they're the best team ever.

 

[caw]

No, I lump them in too. Chicago has better players if you're going to go down the list, and it really has nothing to do with the '96 Bulls as a team as much as it does the league they played in. So much more sophistication on both ends that if you're taking the old-age principles and applying them to the modern game, you're going to have trouble no matter who your players are.

This is admittedly nothing more than a hunch/educated guess, but that's no more than anybody else is working with. Moreover, 73 wins, winning a second straight title...not sure how you can say "not a chance in hell" they're the best team ever.

I think it depends on the situation entirely. Either team dropped into the others age and told to play the next week would likely lose because of the rule changes. I can't imagine all the fouls the Bulls would be called for and how the zone rules would make things difficult for them. In the reverse, the Warriors would be whining for all the uncalled fouls and the inability to basically zone with Rodmans man.

Assuming you give each team a year to adjust to the new era, I'd take the Bulls but it would be a toss up. I just take the Bulls because I trust Jordan to close the game over Curry by a hair.

Curry and Klay with a 22 foot line would be sick, not to mention Green and their other shooters. The offense would be lethal if given time to adjust to the way things are (not) called. Their defense would take a hit though without being able to play with the current NBA zone rules and without those, I'm not sure they could stop Jordan in the post (that is the one place where he is a million times better than Lebron). Either way it would be a good series.

Bringing the Bulls to 2015 and giving them a year to adjust and I think their defense would be even better than it was in 96, and easily the best in the NBA this year. IMO they are built for this era of switching and pick and roll defense. They potentially have a better version of the Warriors death lineup with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Rodman and Kerr. The Warriors death lineup would meet its match. True you don't have to defend Rodman in the traditional sense but you also can't leave him because of his rebounding ability. However, the Bulls offense would be considerably hindered by the three point line being back to what it is. The question is whether the D makes up for the O and if the Bulls can integrate a fantastic three point shooter into the offense to open everything up inside with Steve Kerr and he would be lethal in this era mainly because he would be more of an offensive focus. Just my opinion but I think he gives the Bulls the edge bc he allows them to adjust to the new way of play.

 

[KemBuckets21]

So you simmed it one time and it had the Warriors shoot 8/26 from 3 (including 5/17 from Curry/Thompson) and the Warriors lost. I would not exactly say that would be indicative.

Well if you want to sim it 1000 times, go ahead and get a better sample size. It was just a talking point.

Obviously it's not indicative because it's an imperfect assessment. The
Novel insight is appreciated.

 

[mauconnfan]

Only thing I have and it means nothing is this:

The athlete is definitely better now.

The basketball players overall, IQ etc were better back then.

The guards and wings of today would be a tough defensive assignment for the players yesteryear.

There is no team who can guard the actual centers of the past because there aren't any anymore so the Kareem's, Wilt's and such would have a field day in today's game.

It would be a 6 OT thriller

 

[auror]

Bringing the Bulls to 2015 and giving them a year to adjust and I think their defense would be even better than it was in 96, and easily the best in the NBA this year. IMO they are built for this era of switching and pick and roll defense. They potentially have a better version of the Warriors death lineup with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Rodman and Kerr. The Warriors death lineup would meet its match. True you don't have to defend Rodman in the traditional sense but you also can't leave him because of his rebounding ability.

You're right about the switching on D, but one of the main reasons the death lineup is so lethal on offense is that all 5 guys can hit a 3 at a level that demands respect (they shot 35%, 38%, 38%, 42%, 45%). When that happens, the defense gets stretched too far and off-the-ball screens and back cuts become impossible to help on without over-extending and giving up a wide-open corner 3. So against the death lineup your choices are layups (70% for 2 points, 1.4PPP) and corner 3's (~50% for 3 points 1.5PPP), unless you're able to keep everyone in front of you, which is very difficult with the craftiness of Curry and the passing of Draymond and Iguodala. And if you play great D, Curry just hits a 3 in your face anyways.

Just having one guy (Rodman) who needs to be in the lane to be effective, that you can sag off of in the lane, go under screens, etc. hurts your spacing considerably (see Roberson, Andre). The help is just that much closer to the basket and easier to contest the cuts. Harper was also a career 29% 3-point shooter, although perhaps he'd be better in this era (he didn't improve as his career went on though, he shot 19% in '97-'98).