OT RIP Baseball - You deserve ZERO fans

[The Viking]

All these teams are analytics now. It’s not like 20 years ago when billy beane and Theo Epstein and maybe a couple other teams were doing it.

If I’m a GM my next move is spending a so so amount - let’s say 40% of the budget- on a hitting and fielding group that makes contact, has speed and defends. And then put the majority of the money into the pitching staff.

These teams pitchers heads will spin with balls constantly put in play, hit and runs, and stolen bases.
Then you use your staff and defense to lock it down.

 

[superjohn]

Why don't those of you who dislike the shift take issue with the hitters? Jackie Bradley bats about .180. Mostly Ks, but a pull hitter. Big shift on him. With his speed, a bunt down the 3rd baseline could have him hitting .250+. I blame him for not adjusting. I don't agree with banning shifts.

It's not the hitters fault there's no such thing as bunting anymore in baseball.

 

[The Viking]

What year was that?

I know he was close in Oakland toward the end of his Sox career I think.

 

[Scoe]

I know he was close in Oakland toward the end of his Sox career I think.

Still ended up finishing his career with a world series, so it was worth it.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

is this a poll on baseball?
if so, put me down as a fan.
if this is a poll on clayton,
also put me down as a fan.
if it's a poll on the dodgers,
put me down as a no.

u ain't lived til some crazy, Africa hot, and sweltering day in the summer, where ur just lazin along at the place where ur lazin along at, u got the team on the radio, and the announcer sez 'there's the pitch. he swings, and lifts a high pop fly into the stands, 2 and 2. nice grab by the guy with his beercup... you know partner, i wonder if those little fans some folks wear on their hat really work.. sure is hot... they say tomorrow it might hit 95, yep, sure is hot...'
time to turn over, or mebbe scratch ur backside, or turn ur hat around,
'there's the pitch...'
later, around the seventh (7th inning stretch) or so, mebbe u yell out to no one in particular 'hey! what are we having for dinner! im working up an appetite here!'
'there's the pitch...'

let's play two.

 

[cohenzone]

Why don't those of you who dislike the shift take issue with the hitters? Jackie Bradley bats about .180. Mostly Ks, but a pull hitter. Big shift on him. With his speed, a bunt down the 3rd baseline could have him hitting .250+. I blame him for not adjusting. I don't agree with banning shifts.

The shift is great as a defensive move. But it takes away offense because pull hitters, especially sluggers are paid to hit homers: or so the modern game says. Obviously the way to beat the shift is twofold. Go the other way until small ball scores runs often enough to force the shift to become marginal, or bunt 4 times an inning against the shift and score 9-12 nickel-dime runs a game. Only a slight exaggeration.

Meanwhile, the reference to Bob Gibson resonates tonight as I watch Vlad Guerrero munch on the Yankees with 3 hrs and a double and nary a pitch threatening to soil his shirt.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

this shift stuff is bogus. just a bunch of lawyers stickin their nose into something where everyone, everywhere should be pointing at the batters and saying 'what's ur problem? why can't you hit, or learn to hit it where they ain't? no, seriously dudes, what's ur problem?'

 

[Scoe]

The shift is great as a defensive move. But it takes away offense because pull hitters, especially sluggers are paid to hit homers: or so the modern game says. Obviously the way to beat the shift is twofold. Go the other way until small ball scores runs often enough to force the shift to become marginal, or bunt 4 times an inning against the shift and score 9-12 nickel-dime runs a game. Only a slight exaggeration.

Meanwhile, the reference to Bob Gibson resonates tonight as I watch Vlad Guerrero munch on the Yankees with 3 hrs and a double and nary a pitch threatening to soil his shirt.

Too bad they didn’t sit him. The Jays actually wanted to win this game unlike the Yankees sitting Stanton who nearly tied the game as a PH. Vlad jr might be better then his father a more patient hitter saw him play a couple years ago against the yard goats, he hit 2 hrs out of Hartford.

 

[HooperScooper]

Too bad they didn’t sit him. The Jays actually wanted to win this game unlike the Yankees sitting Stanton who nearly tied the game as a PH. Vlad jr might be better then his father a more patient hitter saw him play a couple years ago against the yard goats, he hit 2 hrs out of Hartford.

He hit West Hartford? On the fly? Now that's power.

 

[Pawsox]

I belong to a facebook group of current and former MiLB and MLB players that has over 12,000 members. Conservatively, I would say 95% of the guys hate the current path that baseball is on. The Manfredization of the game drives most of us nuts. Outlawing the shift, bigger bases, can't touch anyone on a slide, guys who won't take what the defense is giving you, etc shows how much the non-baseball guys in the game are radically changing it.

Don't get me wrong, even though I was a pitcher, I can see the rationale for taking out Kershaw today. Here is a guy that was hurt a lot last year pitching in the 5th game of the season. Since spring training was shortened, it makes even more sense. Any starter with a full spring, can easily go the distance in their 1st or 2nd start of the year. The short spring is the X factor.

I still love the game, but damn, it's getting harder and harder to watch the modern game.

 

[cohenzone]

Too bad they didn’t sit him. The Jays actually wanted to win this game unlike the Yankees sitting Stanton who nearly tied the game as a PH. Vlad jr might be better then his father a more patient hitter saw him play a couple years ago against the yard goats, he hit 2 hrs out of Hartford.

Less reason to sit Stanton than yank Ker Shaw (my IPad isn’t letting me type the name correctly for sum unnown reesin). of course there is the chance he could strain an oblique with too many swings.

 

[cohenzone]

I belong to a facebook group of current and former MiLB and MLB players that has over 12,000 members. Conservatively, I would say 95% of the guys hate the current path that baseball is on. The Manfredization of the game drives most of us nuts. Outlawing the shift, bigger bases, can't touch anyone on a slide, guys who won't take what the defense is giving you, etc shows how much the non-baseball guys in the game are radically changing it.

Don't get me wrong, even I though I was a pitcher, I can see the rationale for taking out Kershaw today. Here is a guy that was hurt a lot last year pitching in the 5th game of the season. Since spring training was shortened, it makes even more sense. Any starter with a full spring, can easily go the distance in their 1st or 2nd start of the year. The short spring is the X factor.

I still love the game, but damn, it's getting harder and harder to watch the modern game.

Complete games these days are as rare as inside the park hrs. Just isn’t done. Even 7 innings is becoming a thing of the past . All these fireballing one inning relief specialists stacking every roster. Relatively few late inning comebacks. It’s become a science and not a game. I love baseball, but it is not the fun it used to be. On top of that, the reason why pitchers are babied and hitting stars go on the IL or DL with hangnails is because they are paid so much they are investments to be protected. Mickey Mantle wouldn’t have played in half the games he played in on his terrible legs In today’s game. It’s counter intuitive. You’d think the more a player is paid the more demands on the body would be expected, but that’s not the way it is now.

 

[willie99]

Don't think twice about it, doesn’t bother me at all.

It's more important to win, the season is more important, health is more important, and I don’t care much about individual accolades

Just win baby

Now when a professional team trades away their best players year after year after year, that bothers me. (Except for Bill Belichick, because he keeps WINNING)

 

[sun]

Since the WS suffers due to pitchers like Kershaw not playing in it then what's good for helping Kershaw pitch in the post season is good for the Dodgers and for baseball.
Verlander has always been a workhorse of an ace but look at how the Astros and the WS suffered last year due to him needing TJ surgery.
A fan would need to live in a cave to complain about Kershaw being pulled with a 6-0 lead after 7 1/2.
If he ends up getting hit in the face by a line drive then Dodger fans would howl why is Kershaw still pitching in the 8th inning?
With his mile long injury history the Dodgers need a MASH unit just to keep him off the IL.

 

[sun]

 

[Scoe]

 

[Waquoit]

What year was that?

His last one? I'll try to find it. I remember watching the game at the Marco Polo. As I recall he was coming off the DL and pushed his pitch count.

 

[storrsroars]

The Pirates just spent actual money on two players, are at .500 and a half game out. MLB is fixed!

 

[freescooter]

Imagine Warren Spahn and Johnny Sain in the 1948 pennant race pitched 4 complete games each in 12 days. Sain had 24 wins and 28 complete games that season. 312 innings Twenty-eight Complete games. Spahn in that stretch pitched a 14 inning complete game. 41 innings in 12 days. There are #1 starters who don’t pitch 41 innings in a month. In 1968 Bob Gibson pitched 28 complte games out of 32 starts. And had an era under 2. Today a guy goes 6 1/3 and he is considered an iron man. In 1963 Spahn and Juan Maricial both pitched 15 plus in a 1-0 Giants win. Now big time starters wouldn’t go 15 innings between them.

 

[Deepster]

Imagine Warren Spahn and Johnny Sain in the 1948 pennant race pitched 4 complete games each in 12 days. Sain had 24 wins and 28 complete games that season. 312 innings Twenty-eight Complete games. Spahn in that stretch pitched a 14 inning complete game. 41 innings in 12 days. There are #1 starters who don’t pitch 41 innings in a month. In 1968 Bob Gibson pitched 28 complte games out of 32 starts. And had an era under 2. Today a guy goes 6 1/3 and he is considered an iron man. In 1963 Spahn and Juan Maricial both pitched 15 plus in a 1-0 Giants win. Now big time starters wouldn’t go 15 innings between them.

Spahn and Sain and a day of rain.

 

[ZooCougar]

"Daddy, what was baseball?"

 

[Scoe]

Might as well bump this thread. Regular season it’s understood pulling guys early. Don’t really like pulling a guy pitching a no hitter as the Astros ok fine you win whatever, but pulling Wheeler in the 6th at 70 pitches? It’s not like he was getting rocked, so what he was in a jam, I thought Rob Thompson was smarter then that.

I’m sure Alvarez does have great numbers against lefties but what what the analytics don’t tell you are the numbers against Alvarez with runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out in an elimination game. You go with your ace to at least get through the 6th, you go with with your ace to put your pen in the best position possible if you lose with your so be it.

 

[Deepster]

Might as well bump this thread. Regular season it’s understood pulling guys early. Don’t really like pulling a guy pitching a no hitter as the Astros ok fine you win whatever, but pulling Wheeler in the 6th at 70 pitches? It’s not like he was getting rocked, so what he was in a jam, I thought Rob Thompson was smarter then that.

I’m sure Alvarez does have great numbers against lefties but what what the analytics don’t tell you are the numbers against Alvarez with runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out in an elimination game. You go with your ace to at least get through the 6th, you go with with your ace to put your pen in the best position possible if you lose with your so be it.

So, I'll play counter here.

How many complete starts of Wheeler have you seen this year? Never mind the daily workouts, bullpen sessions, off day sessions, etc, etc, etc. Don't you think that coaching staff is a little better equipped to make the decision than Scoe of the Boneyard? It didn't work and that opens up Monday morning quarterbacking......but a couple days earlier, people were questioning pulling a guy that had a postseason no hitter and now he's drenched in champagne.

 

[Scoe]

So, I'll play counter here.

How many complete starts of Wheeler have you seen this year? Never mind the daily workouts, bullpen sessions, off day sessions, etc, etc, etc. Don't you think that coaching staff is a little better equipped to make the decision than Scoe of the Boneyard? It didn't work and that opens up Monday morning quarterbacking......but a couple days earlier, people were questioning pulling a guy that had a postseason no hitter and now he's drenched in champagne.

I questioned the move at the time. Game 4 wasn’t a 1 run game on 70 pitches in the 6th. The Astros had the game won pretty much in game 4 and their starter threw 97 pitches, so not a huge fan of it but it was more justifiable.

70 pitches vs 97 is a huge difference, not to mention Alvarado was pitching to Alvarez, don’t you think Wheeler who was already in the game was more equipped to face Alvarez with a man on 1st and 3rd. Who’s control do you trust more. I still think the Astros win btw, but you had a better shot to send it to game 7 with Wheeler. Wheeler also had an extra day of rest.

OMG I’m not a manager I’m on a message board so I’m not allowed to question any moves.

 

[superjohn]

So, I'll play counter here.

How many complete starts of Wheeler have you seen this year? Never mind the daily workouts, bullpen sessions, off day sessions, etc, etc, etc. Don't you think that coaching staff is a little better equipped to make the decision than Scoe of the Boneyard? It didn't work and that opens up Monday morning quarterbacking......but a couple days earlier, people were questioning pulling a guy that had a postseason no hitter and now he's drenched in champagne.

Considering he's their best pitcher, he was pitching an absolute gem, he had only thrown 70 pitches and he averaged 100 pitches per start in the regular season, he hadn't given up anything hit hard, and hadn't lost any of his velocity it was a brutal decision and most likely lost them the World Series.

It wasn't long ago when managers rode their stud starting pitchers in the biggest games and often times they were rewarded with World Series rings because of it. This is right there with the Blake Snell decision and some others we've seen. It's something which has made the game worse IMO and it deserves to backfire like it so often does.