OT-Promise last giants post. | Page 2 | The Boneyard

OT-Promise last giants post.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hankster said:
I hope not. Honestly. I know with the Saints, but when he was calling the plays for the Giants he looked lost to me. Still, I thought he was terrible calling the plays. Giants need new blood. New face.
Expand ...

Pretty sure your OT was your promised "last Giants post" right? Now stop ;)
 
Jerry1714 said:
Wow, talk about not knowing what you are talking about.

List me Reese's great draft picks outside of ODB, JPP and Ritchburg over the last 6 years?

Tommy C messed up the clock a few games, but please explain to me how great the roster was last year when we went 6-10, or 7-9 before that?

Reese built terrible depth on this team, former players called him out for it. Eli alluded to it yesterday. His ignoring of the LB position has cost this team over the years so many games.

He is not going anywhere because the Giants do not fire GMs and Mara is loyal to a fault not because Reese is some genius.

Someone who follows the team for a living:

Dan Graziano ‏@DanGrazianoESPN 18h18 hours ago
Dan Graziano Retweeted Ron Kelley

I can confirm. The mess is total.

Dan Graziano added,

Ron Kelley @ronkel7
@DanGrazianoESPN @trinaldi76 @dpbrugler GMen need every position on Defense and more OL, TE and WR ... The roster is a total mess!

But sure Reese is doing a bang up job!
Expand ...

Yeah, it's Reese's fault JPP played with fireworks, or that Beatty can't lift weights without getting hurt.

Cruz was a brilliant UDFA signing, blows out a knee. If he got on the field with OBJ and Randle, they would have been electric. Is it Reeses fault Cruz blew but his knee last year and they have never gotten on the field together.

On the OL, Pugh, and Flowers and Richburg, all recent draft picks are all very good. Add Beatty and that's a very solid group, and young.

Secondary? The team had two excellent corners in Prince and Cromartie. One a FA one a draft pick. Collins looks like a young star at SS, he just needs to be used right.

Diggy #3 this year from UCLA) looked very strong on the DL but he gets hurt early in the season. We know about JPP and Ayers (another FA) was terrific this year.

Dwayne Harris and Vereen were very good offensive signings. Dan Hurley improved the ST immensely. Vereen is a premiere 3rd down back.

Without the injuries they are competing for conference championships. This is a very good team. Talent was not the problem. Coughlin was. They fired the right guy.
 
Palatine said:
Yeah, it's Reese's fault JPP played with fireworks, or that Beatty can't lift weights without getting hurt.

Cruz was a brilliant UDFA signing, blows out a knee. If he got on the field with OBJ and Randle, they would have been electric. Is it Reeses fault Cruz blew but his knee last year and they have never gotten on the field together.

On the OL, Pugh, and Flowers and Richburg, all recent draft picks are all very good. Add Beatty and that's a very solid group, and young.

Secondary? The team had two excellent corners in Prince and Cromartie. One a FA one a draft pick. Collins looks like a young star at SS, he just needs to be used right.

Diggy #3 this year from UCLA) looked very strong on the DL but he gets hurt early in the season. We know about JPP and Ayers (another FA) was terrific this year.

Dwayne Harris and Vereen were very good offensive signings. Dan Hurley improved the ST immensely. Vereen is a premiere 3rd down back.

Without the injuries they are competing for conference championships. This is a very good team. Talent was not the problem. Coughlin was. They fired the right guy.
Expand ...
Wait are you saying 2nd round pick Rueben Randle is good? Well thats not a bright statement if you are.

Beatty is going to be cut this offseason because Reese over paid for him, he has been ok at best and was one of the worst starting LTs in the league in 2013 when he gave 11 sacks.

Pugh is a decent guard who was picked 19th overall. The 20th pick was a guard and has already been to a pro bowl.

The kid from UCLA cannot get on the field and it is not because he was hurt it is because he is not good enough. He was healthy all this week and practiced but they still left him on IR. He never looked good, he was graded poorly each game by PFF.

Collins as a star SS is laughable. He may be good, he was ok at times this year, awful in coverage, but good against the run. To call him a star is laughable though. You seem to think NFL teams only require 2 corners, do you have realize that most teams play 3 WR sets? Mcbride, Wade, Housely all stink.

You seem not to mention the LB core. You realize this is a really important position he has ignored for years and tried to build it around vets cut from other teams and late round picks who have all failed?

I cannot believe you give me that list and are impressed. The team has no depth. 3rd round pick Housley is god awful. How is Marvin Austin or Demontre Moore doing? Probably as good as Clint Stithm, Cooper Taylor, Ramses Barden, Jerrell Jurnigan, Matt Dodge or Adrien Robinson. I and every Giant fan can go on and on with the draft misses over his tenure. It is is too long of a list.

Casisles and JT Thomas were cnosidered 2 of the worst offseason signings and it showed all year. How about David Baas, J.D. Walton, and O’Brien Schofield?

Coughlin does not coach the defense, 2 coordinators have had to work with what Reese has given them and both have come in 32rd second in total defense during his tenure.

You seem to think a few starters here and there makes a good team, that is not how it works. You build depth, he has not particularly on the defensive side of the ball, honestly everyone sees it but you. Does Reese have some incriminating photos of you laying around?
 
Palatine said:
Yeah, it's Reese's fault JPP played with fireworks, or that Beatty can't lift weights without getting hurt.

Cruz was a brilliant UDFA signing, blows out a knee. If he got on the field with OBJ and Randle, they would have been electric. Is it Reeses fault Cruz blew but his knee last year and they have never gotten on the field together.

On the OL, Pugh, and Flowers and Richburg, all recent draft picks are all very good. Add Beatty and that's a very solid group, and young.

Secondary? The team had two excellent corners in Prince and Cromartie. One a FA one a draft pick. Collins looks like a young star at SS, he just needs to be used right.

Diggy #3 this year from UCLA) looked very strong on the DL but he gets hurt early in the season. We know about JPP and Ayers (another FA) was terrific this year.

Dwayne Harris and Vereen were very good offensive signings. Dan Hurley improved the ST immensely. Vereen is a premiere 3rd down back.

Without the injuries they are competing for conference championships. This is a very good team. Talent was not the problem. Coughlin was. They fired the right guy.
Expand ...
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-gi...le-for-giants-predicament-as-tom-coughlin-was

"But it's absurd to look at the Giants' current predicament and conclude that the accountability should stop with the coaching staff. The team that Reese and his front office asked Coughlin to coach this year was the worst he has had since he was in Jacksonville, and it wasn't all that much worse than the ones they gave him in 2013 and 2014."

Tell me more about how this is a championship roster, please tell me more.
 
Jerry1714 said:
honestly everyone sees it but you
Expand ...
When reading his posts, it might help if you insert "in Palatine's world" at the end of each one. That way, instead of being frustrated, you can just chuckle like it's a Bazooka Joe comic strip.

Works for me.
 
I do believe Collins will be really good, like him a lot. Ayers is a nice player but they didn't have a pass rush no matter who got injured, even with JPP he would have been doubled. The LBers are the biggest issue, teams play small ball at will on us, some of that was due to injuries to the DB's but mostly due to lackluster talent at LB. Reese is part of the problem, should go also but not as much as Tom C.

Thanks to Tom C in a big way, great man great coach. Part of the recruiting team for my buddy at BC back in the day and a super guy according to all. The guy transformed himself as a coach to meet the players half way and it made a huge difference remember. Congrats on a HOF career and best of luck with your family and health.
 
.-.
Palatine said:
Yeah, it's Reese's fault JPP played with fireworks, or that Beatty can't lift weights without getting hurt.

Cruz was a brilliant UDFA signing, blows out a knee. If he got on the field with OBJ and Randle, they would have been electric. Is it Reeses fault Cruz blew but his knee last year and they have never gotten on the field together.

On the OL, Pugh, and Flowers and Richburg, all recent draft picks are all very good. Add Beatty and that's a very solid group, and young.

Secondary? The team had two excellent corners in Prince and Cromartie. One a FA one a draft pick. Collins looks like a young star at SS, he just needs to be used right.

Diggy #3 this year from UCLA) looked very strong on the DL but he gets hurt early in the season. We know about JPP and Ayers (another FA) was terrific this year.

Dwayne Harris and Vereen were very good offensive signings. Dan Hurley improved the ST immensely. Vereen is a premiere 3rd down back.

Without the injuries they are competing for conference championships. This is a very good team. Talent was not the problem. Coughlin was. They fired the right guy.
Expand ...
Jason La Canfora ‏@JasonLaCanfora
Mara is talking to GM Jerry Reese about some flawed drafts and personnel issues. "It remains to be seen" if team makes front office moves

Dan Graziano ‏@DanGrazianoESPN
Mara making it clear Giants’ issues are personnel related, result of bad drafts. Roster “obviously was lacking in talent.”

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer
Mara attributes poor draft classes to the team's recent slump. Says changes could be made on the personnel side.

Patricia Traina ‏@Patricia_Traina
Mara said Jerry knows the lack of talent is on him.
 
Jerry1714 said:
Wait are you saying 2nd round pick Rueben Randle is good? Well thats not a bright statement if you are.

Beatty is going to be cut this offseason because Reese over paid for him, he has been ok at best and was one of the worst starting LTs in the league in 2013 when he gave 11 sacks.

Pugh is a decent guard who was picked 19th overall. The 20th pick was a guard and has already been to a pro bowl.

The kid from UCLA cannot get on the field and it is not because he was hurt it is because he is not good enough. He was healthy all this week and practiced but they still left him on IR. He never looked good, he was graded poorly each game by PFF.

Collins as a star SS is laughable. He may be good, he was ok at times this year, awful in coverage, but good against the run. To call him a star is laughable though. You seem to think NFL teams only require 2 corners, do you have realize that most teams play 3 WR sets? Mcbride, Wade, Housely all stink.

You seem not to mention the LB core. You realize this is a really important position he has ignored for years and tried to build it around vets cut from other teams and late round picks who have all failed?

I cannot believe you give me that list and are impressed. The team has no depth. 3rd round pick Housley is god awful. How is Marvin Austin or Demontre Moore doing? Probably as good as Clint Stithm, Cooper Taylor, Ramses Barden, Jerrell Jurnigan, Matt Dodge or Adrien Robinson. I and every Giant fan can go on and on with the draft misses over his tenure. It is is too long of a list.

Casisles and JT Thomas were cnosidered 2 of the worst offseason signings and it showed all year. How about David Baas, J.D. Walton, and O’Brien Schofield?

Coughlin does not coach the defense, 2 coordinators have had to work with what Reese has given them and both have come in 32rd second in total defense during his tenure.

You seem to think a few starters here and there makes a good team, that is not how it works. You build depth, he has not particularly on the defensive side of the ball, honestly everyone sees it but you. Does Reese have some incriminating photos of you laying around?
Expand ...

You're just wrong on a lot of this stuff. It's opinions but next season when we have a winning record again, I'm sure you will be quiet.

First, PFF has a much higher opinion of Beatty than you. Yes, he had a bad 2013. So that's how you judge a player, off their worst year? However.

In every other season since becoming a full-time starter in 2011, however, Beatty's play has been above average to outstanding. Since 2011, Pro Football Focus lists 316 offensive tackles as having played at least 25 percent of their team's snaps. Only 145 of those (45.8 percent) has record positive PFF scores. Beatty has done so three of the four times.


Beatty's overall PFF grade in the four seasons since he became the starting left tackle is +22.6, a grade that includes the 2013 debacle. In 2014, Beatty was 14th among all tackles playing at least 25 percent of the time with a +13.0 PFF grade. He allowed only three sacks.


Beatty is also a dominant run blocker. His four-year score from PFF in run blocking is +30.6. Even in his rough 2013 season he was +7.2 as a run blocker. He has been the best run blocker on the Giants' line for years now, and the view here is that the Giants need to run behind him more often.

Pugh is very good player and will be for another five to ten years. Exactly what you want from a first rounder.

Randle is a very good physical talent, his problem has been mental. He is suppose to be the #3 receiver, if he was behind Beckham and Cruz, we would view him differently. BTW, if Coughlin doesn't make the idiotic decision to let go of Jones and keep Preston Parker, we probably start the season 2-0. Reese gave Coughlin both these players Coughlin cut the wrong one.

Collins is perfect for a system that uses him as a SS/LB. The loss of Rolle has hurt his development. But he is a rookie, who came in and started every game and has gotten better and better as the season moved on. Expect him to hold that position for years. That's nice value in round two.

I could go on for days but you will not be convinced.

LB is a weakness, not every unit on every team is excels. But it has been devastated by injuries. All three starters are long gone.

And this....

I cannot believe you give me that list and are impressed. The team has no depth. 3rd round pick Housley is god awful. How is Marvin Austin or Demontre Moore doing? Probably as good as Clint Stithm, Cooper Taylor, Ramses Barden, Jerrell Jurnigan, Matt Dodge or Adrien Robinson. I and every Giant fan can go on and on with the draft misses over his tenure. It is is too long of a list.

Maybe you don't follow other teams but every GM misses on draft picks, in every round, you could make a list like that for every single team. Every single team. Reese is nowhere near the bottom of the league. Look a Oakland and Cleveland and even Dallas. Get a world view.

The real problem has been Coughlin is a lousy game coach. There will be an immediate improvement next year because he is gone.
 
tcf15 said:
Jason La Canfora ‏@JasonLaCanfora
Mara is talking to GM Jerry Reese about some flawed drafts and personnel issues. "It remains to be seen" if team makes front office moves

Dan Graziano ‏@DanGrazianoESPN
Mara making it clear Giants’ issues are personnel related, result of bad drafts. Roster “obviously was lacking in talent.”

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer
Mara attributes poor draft classes to the team's recent slump. Says changes could be made on the personnel side.

Patricia Traina ‏@Patricia_Traina
Mara said Jerry knows the lack of talent is on him.
Expand ...
Everyone with a brain knows its on Reese, too bad Palatine is missing one.
 
tcf15 said:
Jason La Canfora ‏@JasonLaCanfora
Mara is talking to GM Jerry Reese about some flawed drafts and personnel issues. "It remains to be seen" if team makes front office moves

Dan Graziano ‏@DanGrazianoESPN
Mara making it clear Giants’ issues are personnel related, result of bad drafts. Roster “obviously was lacking in talent.”

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer
Mara attributes poor draft classes to the team's recent slump. Says changes could be made on the personnel side.

Patricia Traina ‏@Patricia_Traina
Mara said Jerry knows the lack of talent is on him.
Expand ...

This makes zero sense to me. The Giants, the owner, and everyone with a clue, knows the team has personnel issues. So you decide to keep the one guy directly responsible for them in his role in the front office? If you must be loyal, at least move him to a less 'impactful' role. Reese isn't going to magically 'find it' and become a top personnel guy.

Quite frankly, the Giants would be better off keeping Coughlin and firing Reese. I'm not saying that's what the should do, just that they'd be better off.
 
Palatine said:
You're just wrong on a lot of this stuff. It's opinions but next season when we have a winning record again, I'm sure you will be quiet.

First, PFF has a much higher opinion of Beatty than you. Yes, he had a bad 2013. So that's how you judge a player, off their worst year? However.

In every other season since becoming a full-time starter in 2011, however, Beatty's play has been above average to outstanding. Since 2011, Pro Football Focus lists 316 offensive tackles as having played at least 25 percent of their team's snaps. Only 145 of those (45.8 percent) has record positive PFF scores. Beatty has done so three of the four times.


Beatty's overall PFF grade in the four seasons since he became the starting left tackle is +22.6, a grade that includes the 2013 debacle. In 2014, Beatty was 14th among all tackles playing at least 25 percent of the time with a +13.0 PFF grade. He allowed only three sacks.


Beatty is also a dominant run blocker. His four-year score from PFF in run blocking is +30.6. Even in his rough 2013 season he was +7.2 as a run blocker. He has been the best run blocker on the Giants' line for years now, and the view here is that the Giants need to run behind him more often.

Pugh is very good player and will be for another five to ten years. Exactly what you want from a first rounder.

Randle is a very good physical talent, his problem has been mental. He is suppose to be the #3 receiver, if he was behind Beckham and Cruz, we would view him differently. BTW, if Coughlin doesn't make the idiotic decision to let go of Jones and keep Preston Parker, we probably start the season 2-0. Reese gave Coughlin both these players Coughlin cut the wrong one.

Collins is perfect for a system that uses him as a SS/LB. The loss of Rolle has hurt his development. But he is a rookie, who came in and started every game and has gotten better and better as the season moved on. Expect him to hold that position for years. That's nice value in round two.

I could go on for days but you will not be convinced.

LB is a weakness, not every unit on every team is excels. But it has been devastated by injuries. All three starters are long gone.

And this....

I cannot believe you give me that list and are impressed. The team has no depth. 3rd round pick Housley is god awful. How is Marvin Austin or Demontre Moore doing? Probably as good as Clint Stithm, Cooper Taylor, Ramses Barden, Jerrell Jurnigan, Matt Dodge or Adrien Robinson. I and every Giant fan can go on and on with the draft misses over his tenure. It is is too long of a list.

Maybe you don't follow other teams but every GM misses on draft picks, in every round, you could make a list like that for every single team. Every single team. Reese is nowhere near the bottom of the league. Look a Oakland and Cleveland and even Dallas. Get a world view.

The real problem has been Coughlin is a lousy game coach. There will be an immediate improvement next year because he is gone.
Expand ...
So you are comparing us to Cleveland, Oakland and Dallas and that is suppose to support Reese. Jeez you really are crazy.

You conveniently ignore the depth Reese has brought in and the defensive numbers of the team under 2 different coordinators. Frankly, you are clueless and you are kinda embarrassing yourself here standing out on this limb.

You listen to Mara's presser?

He admitted Reese has stunk. But sure Palatine, tell me how good this roster is and ignore all the facts.
 
Palatine said:
You're just wrong on a lot of this stuff. It's opinions but next season when we have a winning record again, I'm sure you will be quiet.

The real problem has been Coughlin is a lousy game coach. There will be an immediate improvement next year because he is gone.
Expand ...

You can't claim any of that stuff. The NFL is too unpredictable for this to hold. If they make a perfect hire, and the players they have fit his scheme, and get the right additional personnel, then yes, it could happen. But a new coach, with a new scheme, and the same GM, isn't necessarily going to produce results. I mean, the Giants might not be in the same 'winning' position they were at the end of every game without Coughlin.

All that said, anyone has a shot in that division atm.
 
.-.
Jerry Reese: "We have some issues with personnel ... I take full responsibility"

Even Reese knows it, everyone knows it, well not Palatine, but everyone who follows the Giants know it
 
I'd add that you don't evaluate a GM based on his home runs (Beckham), you evaluate him on the middle and back end of the roster. That's what separates good teams from lesser ones. Yes, you have to have talent at the top, but due to attrition, and the fact that most teams have some talent, it's the middle of the lineup that matters most. As others have mentioned, depth.
 
This offseason is make or break for Reese, so maybe he'll be aggressive in FA.

The offense would have been so much better had David Wilson not gotten hurt. He had serious homerun potential. There is no excuse for the defense. Even if JPP didn't blow his hand off, no one was getting to the passer. Hankins is a good DT, but he got hurt. Ayers came on late, but im not really sold on paying him. The CB's are only as good as the pressure generated. If a QB has all day, the WR will eventually get open.

So much went wrong. Having to play Newhouse all year due to the Beatty injury is paramount. Not to mention Schwartz was hurt. The whole right side of the line was shot. They couldn't run the ball at all.

Rueben Randle is so perplexing. He's got talent, but often looks asleep running routes. Cruz is a complete ? He hasn't played in years.

They have cap room. Time to make something happen.
 
Honest question - after Beckham and Eli...who do you think is the 3rd best player on the giants? (I know...it's ugly..)
 
intlzncster said:
I'd add that you don't evaluate a GM based on his home runs (Beckham), you evaluate him on the middle and back end of the roster. That's what separates good teams from lesser ones. Yes, you have to have talent at the top, but due to attrition, and the fact that most teams have some talent, it's the middle of the lineup that matters most. As others have mentioned, depth.
Expand ...
And that's where Reese has really struggled - especially in the draft. In his time here, since 2007, he has done a decent job with first rounders (Flowers, Beckham, Pugh, Amukamara, JPP, Nicks, Phillips and Ross), ok with the second round (Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas, Linval Joseph, Hankins, Richburg and Collins) - but has really been awful with rounds 3-7, which like you say, is where you build the middle and back end of the roster.

The only 3rd-7th round players remaining on this team from the 2010-2013 drafts are Jayron Hosely, Brandon Mosely, Markus Kuhn, Ryan Nassib and Cooper Taylor. 5 meh players out of a total of 21 total draft picks.

Probably going to go into next year with none of our 2012 draft picks left on this team, too.
 
Jerry1714 said:
So you are comparing us to Cleveland, Oakland and Dallas and that is suppose to support Reese. Jeez you really are crazy.

You conveniently ignore the depth Reese has brought in and the defensive numbers of the team under 2 different coordinators. Frankly, you are clueless and you are kinda embarrassing yourself here standing out on this limb.

You listen to Mara's presser?

He admitted Reese has stunk. But sure Palatine, tell me how good this roster is and ignore all the facts.
Expand ...

And Oakland has had a good run personnel wise recently. They have a nice young team, and look like they might have hit with Carr (the key to it all).
 
.-.
tcf15 said:
And that's where Reese has really struggled - especially in the draft. In his time here, since 2007, he has done a decent job with first rounders (Flowers, Beckham, Pugh, Amukamara, JPP, Nicks, Phillips and Ross), ok with the second round (Steve Smith, Terrell Thomas, Linval Joseph, Hankins, Richburg and Collins) - but has really been awful with rounds 3-7, which like you say, is where you build the middle and back end of the roster.

The only 3rd-7th round players remaining on this team from the 2010-2013 drafts are Jayron Hosely, Brandon Mosely, Markus Kuhn, Ryan Nassib and Cooper Taylor. 5 meh players out of a total of 21 total draft picks.

Probably going to go into next year with none of our 2012 draft picks left on this team, too.
Expand ...
Calling them "meh" players is a compliment.

Every team has a few good starters, even the Titans and Browns you can find some players who would start on almost every team. What makes a team good is building roster depth to withstand the injuries which always come in the NFL. Pats, Seattle, Pitt all had a lot of injuries, and meaningful injuries, this year but are still playing. Building depth comes from drafting well in the middle rounds, which Reese gets an F on. His best post 2nd round pick in the last 6 drafts is what? Jay Bromley? Kennard? That is really really poor.

You also build that depth on small signing FA's which he may be worse on than the draft. Easy to sign good big money players, like DRC, or draft good players with 1st round picks, but Reese has failed to build any depth or middle roster talent and the last few years speak for itself.
 
Palatine said:
And here's a ranking of the NFL GMs from the Sporting News after the 2015 season. Reese is 16.

http://www.sportingnews.com/list/46...ider-ozzie-newsome-bill-belichick-jerry-jones
Expand ...
Thanks for proving my point, a guy who gets bump for having 2 SBs (one he can thank Acorsi for) is ranked 16th. 10 of those guys new and completely unproven and cannot be ranked. So he is a bottom tier GM based on what he has done.

GMs drafting ranked:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/rating-general-managers-in-the-nfl-draft/

Is last good?

Clearly you strive for mediocrity.

Oh, and that same publications ranks Tommy C 7th best coach: http://www.sportingnews.com/list/46...-kelly-garrett-mccarthy-harbaugh/slide/331992

But yea they fired the right guy.
 
Last edited:
KembaStepback said:
This offseason is make or break for Reese, so maybe he'll be aggressive in FA. They have cap room. Time to make something happen.
Expand ...

I don't know if I'm in the minority, or that my opinion matters much, but I think FA (not including UDFAs) is the most overrated part of team building.

Most important thing in the NFL is managing cap space, so you can get that breadth and depth of talent. It also allows you to resign the guys you do have; there's no talent you can evaluate (for both skillset and scheme fit) more effectively than your own, so keeping free cap space is paramount.

1. Therefore, hitting in the draft, and developing your own players is number one. That's how you get cost effective talent. eg, the Patriots aren't paying much for Chandler Jones, Donte Hightower, and Jamie Collins right now, 3 of their top five defenders and a large reason why they're well positioned to make a good run at a Super Bowl. Managing the draft includes collecting as many picks (assets) as possible, both by trading down (rarely trading up) and from compensatory picks, and taking the best player available. This allows for stockpiling young talent, having chips for the future, and having chips to trade for good mid level acquisitions early in the season from other teams (buy high sell low).

2. Next up is retaining your own talent. As I said before, there aren't any players you can evaluate and project better than your own. If you manage number 1 above, you should have available cap to do so.

2a. Corollary: Never, ever overpay for your own talent. Quickest way to sink a team. Much better to let them walk and collect those compensatory picks I mentioned above.

3. UDFAs. Hitting on draft picks is one thing, but as everyone knows, the draft is a very inexact science. So hard to project guys to the pro level. That's why you need to have a really strong scouting department to really lock down quality and quantity in the UDFA markets. The more young players (opportunities) you sign, the greater the chance you have of finding a player. A big part of this is spending time with guys who might not be drafted PRIOR to the draft. These guys remember this and are likely to sign with you afterwards.

4. Vet Free Agency: this is the least important thing imo, and one you do not want to waste too much money on. As I mentioned before, cap space is paramount, and free agency (except at lower levels) will kill your cap space, like none other. You almost always overpay for free agent talent. Listen, teams let guys go for a reason: they are not worth the money that they are asking. They are the best at evaluating their own talent, and they've determined this to be the case. So why would you want to overpay for one of these players. The one caveat would be a guy who's been grossly miscast in another position/scheme. You might want to take a shot that he'll fit yours better. It's like the stock market: buy low, sell high. Find a talented guy who has underperformed in other places for whatever reason, low ball it, and hope you hit. Low risk, high reward.

And even though you can evaluate veteran players skill at the NFL level, you can't necessarily evaluate how well they'll fit your scheme, unless their prior teams run something very similar to your own. So there's still risk there.

None of the rules apply to Quarterbacks though. Whole different topic. No idea if anyone is going to read this. lol
 
Last edited:
KembaStepback said:
Honest question - after Beckham and Eli...who do you think is the 3rd best player on the giants? (I know...it's ugly..)
Expand ...

Crazy huh when you think about that? Wow, tough call. Pugh? Collins, Prince when healthy, Cromartie? Yikes
 
.-.
Jerry1714 said:
You also build that depth on small signing FA's which he may be worse on than the draft. Easy to sign good big money players, like DRC,
Expand ...

Exactly.

As an addendum to my post above, I think Reese overpaid for Ayers and Vereen (whom I absolutely LOVE as a player). Contrast Vereen to what BB did to replace him. Stockpiled two cheap free agents (Lewis and Travaris Cadet), and drafted a young guy in in the 4th round (James White); got multiple guys to see who pans out. Lewis is the ultimate example of buy low. He was a great find, dynamic as they come. Although you could argue against it because of his current IR status. But that's where they had James White as another dirt cheap replacement already on the roster and in the program. (aside: all 3 of these guys came down to great scouting: hired Lombardi, who had familiarity w Lewis in Cleveland; joint practices w the Saints allowed them to get a long look at Cadet; and former assistant Bill Obrien at PSU got a good look at White)

Now Vereen is a talent, that is for sure, and represented a great low cost piece out of the draft, but is his production really worth the money? Especially given you could have had Lewis, White and Cadet for less? I say no.

To top it all off, the Patriots will get a quality compensatory pick for Vereen. That's how you team build.
 
Last edited:
intlzncster said:
I don't know if I'm in the minority, or that my opinion matters much, but I think FA (not including UDFAs) is the most overrated part of team building.

Most important thing in the NFL is managing cap space, so you can get that breadth and depth of talent. It also allows you to resign the guys you do have; there's no talent you can evaluate (for both skillset and scheme fit) more effectively than your own, so keeping free cap space is paramount.

1. Therefore, hitting in the draft, and developing your own players is number one. That's how you get cost effective talent. eg, the Patriots aren't paying much for Chandler Jones, Donte Hightower, and Jamie Collins right now, 3 of their top five defenders and a large reason why they're well positioned to make a good run at a Super Bowl. Managing the draft includes collecting as many picks (assets) as possible, both by trading down (rarely trading up) and from compensatory picks, and taking the best player available. This allows for stockpiling young talent, having chips for the future, and having chips to trade for good mid level acquisitions early in the season from other teams (buy high sell low).

2. Next up is retaining your own talent. As I said before, there aren't any players you can evaluate and project better than your own. If you manage number 1 above, you should have available cap to do so.

2a. Corollary: Never, ever overpay for your own talent. Quickest way to sink a team. Much better to let them walk and collect those compensatory picks I mentioned above.

3. UDFAs. Hitting on draft picks is one thing, but as everyone knows, the draft is a very inexact science. So hard to project guys to the pro level. That's why you need to have a really strong scouting department to really lock down quality and quantity in the UDFA markets. The more young players (opportunities) you sign, the greater the chance you have of finding a player. A big part of this is spending time with guys who might not be drafted PRIOR to the draft. These guys remember this and are likely to sign with you afterwards.

4. Vet Free Agency: this is the least important thing imo, and one you do not want to waste too much money on. As I mentioned before, cap space is paramount, and free agency (except at lower levels) will kill your cap space, like none other. You almost always overpay for free agent talent. Listen, teams let guys go for a reason: they are not worth the money that they are asking. They are the best at evaluating their own talent, and they've determined this to be the case. So why would you want to overpay for one of these players. The one caveat would be a guy who's been grossly miscast in another position/scheme. You might want to take a shot that he'll fit yours better. It's like the stock market: buy low, sell high. Find a talented guy who has underperformed in other places for whatever reason, low ball it, and hope you hit. Low risk, high reward.

And even though you can evaluate veteran players skill at the NFL level, you can't necessarily evaluate how well they'll fit your scheme, unless their prior teams run something very similar to your own. So there's still risk there.

None of the rules apply to Quarterbacks though. Whole different topic. No idea if anyone is going to read this. lol
Expand ...
I tend to agree that FA isn't always a solution and that it generally isn't a huge problem solver. However, this team needs a complete overhaul. Before cutting some of these guys and renegotiating some contracts. the giants have $42 million in cap room. That's a LOT of money. Most likely after they cut the likes of Beatty, Beason, etc. It'll be over $50 million. That's good for some star power as well is filling in with depth. I agree that the draft is VERY important. The Giants have been unlucky and awful when it comes to the draft, which is a terrible combination.
 
mauconnfan said:
Crazy huh when you think about that? Wow, tough call. Pugh? Collins, Prince when healthy, Cromartie? Yikes
Expand ...
It's bad. Vereen maybe? I like flowers too. DRC? it's tough. Either way it's ugly.
 
Jerry1714 said:
Ritchburg was the highest graded center in the league this season. He is the 3rd best player.
Expand ...

Vereen ticked me off against the Eagles, thought he should have made a better "defensive" play on the tipped pass that became a pick 6. But he's a nice piece, good player. He actually also loses his impact with just one receiver to worry about. Hopefully that changes next year.
 
Jerry1714 said:
Ritchburg was the highest graded center in the league this season. He is the 3rd best player.
Expand ...
I didn't realize that. I like Richburg. If he's the 3rd - who's next.

The point remains that the roster is a train-wreck.
 
.-.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,207
Messages
4,556,895
Members
10,442
Latest member
Virginiafan


Top Bottom