OT: Pats-Colts

[Husky25]

I presume that we are all, here, predominantly basketball fans.

That's a terrible assumption. I, along with a considerable number of other posters, have just as many posts on this board as the UConn football board, as the entertainment board, as the Pro Sports board, and maybe even the Cesspool.

This case has no basketball equivalent. This is a piece of equipment used only by one team which is not compliant with the rules. Only one ball is used throughout the entire basketball game and is touched by all players on both sides. In basketball, if you commit a foul or violation (and the ref sees it), they blows the whistle. It's not cheating, and the offending player is "punished" in real time.

 

[John]

Wow this thread gets more comical by the reply. Am I biased, hell yeah hate the Pats and it's easy to see why - read the replies. I live around these whacko's! LOL

Here's the problem, I hate them so I have a bias but I can admit I do. They love them but can't admit anything, instead all of you continue to deflect any questions that will lead you to admitting the truth. Not one fan has stepped up and said what should be said:
"Ok they screwed around with the balsl but shouldn't have. Made no difference we kicked their butts and we will do the same to the Seahawks next Sunday with all the balls inflated to whatever spec's are required. Then what will be the complaint?"

But instead they act as expected, almighty. Just like Papi - "prove it to me, they never proved it with him like they did with ARod"

Just, for the most part, a very arrogant group of fans who live on their own little island since the successes began in the 90's. I admit, the Seahawks can't beat them bad enough for my liking!Now more than ever

With all due respect, especially because of your spectacular avatar, I suggest that we all just await the results of the investigation before coming to kneejerk decisions based on media hearsay and general hysteria.

 

[upstater]

Because Indy over inflated their balls and when they cooled then ended up within regulation weight? The refs didn't check them and now are covering up? Aliens? You can suppose a lot of things, but until you have facts, that's all it is supposition. Now when the NFL comes back and says there's no evidence of tampering, which I strongly suspect that they will, are you going to be satisfied Deep, or you already so locked in to a conclusion based on an incomplete knowledge of the facts that you will still be outraged?

I don't know why Peter King is so certain. If the descrepancy is huge, then yeah there was either tampering or the refs did a squeeze check.

But I do know this: the laws of nature did not take Sunday off.

If you pump a ball in 75-80 degree indoor temps (hotter air), it is going to lose air pressure after 2 hours in the 45-48 degree weather. Worse, even ESPN's Sports Science said that wet rainy weather will take it down more.

How much? Who knows? And the drop isn't even, it's parabolic. Any cyclist here knows that when you pump 23mm tires up, the change from 30 to 60 PSI is very noticeable, but going from 90 to 120 PSI is hardly noticeable (unless you're Lance Armstrong--speaking of which.... heh), and more, there's an absolute point in the pressure in which the speed of deflation changes. The Boston Globe has a physics professor doing the calculations and he starts with Colts balls at 13.5 PSI in that temp at 47 degrees and then Patriots balls at 12.5 PSI. The trip from 13.5 to 12.5 is similar to the trip from 12.5 to 11.5 or 11. Mort is the only one who has said the balls were at 11 PSI (and there was no 12th ball, that was lost in the stands). Tom Curran has written that the numbers he got were different and all over the place, though still under he threshold.

The backup balls are irrelevant because they were in the refs locker room the whole time, which explains why the Patriots were playing with Colts balls at the end of the second half, and not backup balls.

 

[mauconnfan]

With all due respect, especially because of your spectacular avatar, I suggest that we all just await the results of the investigation before coming to kneejerk decisions based on media hearsay and general hysteria.

John the NFL used the word "distraught" when they first found out and did their initial investigation. If it "goes away" it will be purely political, it happened. 11 0f 12 PATS balls were 2 lbs off - it's real and there is no taking that back now unless they have to for whatever reason that could be. As Deep said, once a cheater always a cheater. That is of course if it was Bill and not Tom?

 

[mauconnfan]

I don't know why Peter King is so certain. If the descrepancy is huge, then yeah there was either tampering or the refs did a squeeze check.

But I do know this: the laws of nature did not take Sunday off.

If you pump a ball in 75-80 degree indoor temps (hotter air), it is going to lose air pressure after 2 hours in the 45-48 degree weather. Worse, even ESPN's Sports Science said that wet rainy weather will take it down more.

How much? Who knows? And the drop isn't even, it's parabolic. Any cyclist here knows that when you pump 23mm tires up, the change from 30 to 60 PSI is very noticeable, but going from 90 to 120 PSI is hardly noticeable (unless you're Lance Armstrong--speaking of which.... heh), and more, there's an absolute point in the pressure in which the speed of deflation changes. The Boston Globe has a physics professor doing the calculations and he starts with Colts balls at 13.5 PSI in that temp at 47 degrees and then Patriots balls at 12.5 PSI. The trip from 13.5 to 12.5 is similar to the trip from 12.5 to 11.5 or 11. Mort is the only one who has said the balls were at 11 PSI (and there was no 12th ball, that was lost in the stands). Tom Curran has written that the numbers he got were different and all over the place, though still under he threshold.

The backup balls are irrelevant because they were in the refs locker room the whole time, which explains why the Patriots were playing with Colts balls at the end of the second half, and not backup balls.

Wow just wow!

 

[Husky25]

I wrote the following in another thread. It is certainly applicable here as well:

The NFL was too quick in exonerating the refs, but imagine the integrity of the game charges if it came out that the refs didn't check the pressure and there was an incongruity between the pressure gauges? I consider the refs in this case to play the part of a police officer in a criminal case. I have been voir dired twice in my life and in both cases they first question the prosecuting attorney asked me is if I believe cops can make mistakes or always tell the truth. Obviously the answer is yes and no to those questions, respectively. They are human. So are referees. But what's in it for them to lie? It's not to set up the Patriots per se, but it's to deflect blame for not doing their job entirely. The officials are "All-Star" crews who don't work together in the regular season. It is just as possible for something to fall through the cracks (probably more) as it is for a rogue ball boy to stick a pin in the ball.

I also think there is a chance that when Peter King reported that the NFL was appalled earlier in the week, they could have been referring to the whistleblower. There is a possibility the NFL thinks this is akin to a baseball player rubbing out the back line of the batters box to get 4 additional inches to see the ball and make a decision to swing. It's a largely unenforced rule and an unenforced rule is no rule. Now the NFL is are retroactively trying to piece together their defense. I think the reason the NFL hasn't made anything officially public is because at the end of the day, the burden of proof is on the league and the evidence is far too circumstantial to formally punish the Patriots.

 

[upstater]

And I find it hard to believe that the officials didn't do their job since there are reports that the Colts had complaints about the Pat's under-inflated balls during the regular season game and even the Ravens tipped the Colts to the footballs as well. So I would think a thorough check would be made pre-game. And since the officials swapped out the footballs at the half, they clearly noticed a difference in the footballs than the ones they approved pre-game otherwise they would not have approved them.

Let me get this straight.

You're buying the story about the Ravens?

1. Those were K balls kept in the refs possession at all times.
2. The temperature outside was 10 degrees for the Ravens game.

And, even worse, you say the NFL would have been adamant about checking the balls pregame because they had been tipped off.

But then you're also saying that the NFL, after giving the balls to the sideline attendants with 2 minutes before kickoff (according to Peter King) then managed to not keep an eye on the balls for the next hour?

That seems plausible to you? They were tipped off, so they checked pressure, but then took their eyes off the balls?

That would be the equivalent of the FBI doing a sting operation by going after a serial cheater (err, excuse me, I meant killer) by offering him the bait, but then neglecting to tape or listen-in on the encounter, turning away and having a donut and a cup of coffee during the encounter, and then they show up after the fact to take fingerprints off the dead body!

 

[upstater]

Wow just wow!

OK, the laws of nature did take Sunday off.

 

[upstater]

11 0f 12 PATS balls were 2 lbs off - it's real and there is no taking that back now unless they have to for whatever reason that could be.

So they went into the stands and retrieved Blount's TD ball. Laughable.

 

[mauconnfan]

So they went into the stands and retrieved Blount's TD ball. Laughable.

Not positive but no one gets to keep those balls, security closes in on them fast. It's not baseball upstater, may have changed but any game I have ever been to they get their and people hand them back unwillingly.

 

[John]

John the NFL used the word "distraught" when they first found out and did their initial investigation. If it "goes away" it will be purely political, it happened. 11 0f 12 PATS balls were 2 lbs off - it's real and there is no taking that back now unless they have to for whatever reason that could be. As Deep said, once a cheater always a cheater. That is of course if it was Bill and not Tom?

It feels witch hunty to me. If this were another team, say the Vikings or Jaguars (ie. losers) then there would not be this rush to judgement. But because the Patriots are such a winning organization, there's a rush to judgement by irrational fans of other clubs. I think people need to just slow down and let the process finish, and check their bias at the door.

 

[upstater]

Not positive but no one gets to keep those balls, security closes in on them fast. It's not baseball upstater, may have changed but any game I have ever been to they get their and people hand them back unwillingly.

It depends. Sometimes they take them if they go into the stands as a result of the game (PK) but not if a player hands them to a fan. Fans keep balls.

But...

If it was security, they deflated it.

 

[upstater]

It feels witch hunty to me. If this were another team, say the Vikings or Jaguars (ie. losers) then there would not be this rush to judgement. But because the Patriots are such a winning organization, there's a rush to judgement by irrational fans of other clubs. I think people need to just slow down and let the process finish, and check their bias at the door.

This is exactly what Schefter said as well. But... we're the crazy ones. Not Schefter.

 

[Husky25]

Not positive but no one gets to keep those balls, security closes in on them fast. It's not baseball upstater, may have changed but any game I have ever been to they get their and people hand them back unwillingly.

That's not true. That is why there is a net behind the goal posts and that is why so many game balls are prepared. Fans get to keep the balls.

 

[mauconnfan]

This is exactly what Schefter said as well. But... we're the crazy ones. Not Schefter.

This is also very ridiculous. The Jags and the Vikings haven't won anything and aren't ever in the payoffs so why then would they? Man you guys, give it up you'r becoming more and more obnoxious with the more darts you throw.

 

[CL82]

Wow this thread gets more comical by the reply. Am I biased, hell yeah hate the Pats and it's easy to see why - read the replies. I live around these whacko's! LOL

Here's the problem, I hate them so I have a bias but I can admit I do. They love them but can't admit anything, instead all of you continue to deflect any questions that will lead you to admitting the truth. Not one fan has stepped up and said what should be said:
"Ok they screwed around with the balsl but shouldn't have. Made no difference we kicked their butts and we will do the same to the Seahawks next Sunday with all the balls inflated to whatever spec's are required. Then what will be the complaint?"

But instead they act as expected, almighty. Just like Papi - "prove it to me, they never proved it with him like they did with ARod"

Just, for the most part, a very arrogant group of fans who live on their own little island since the successes began in the 90's. I admit, the Seahawks can't beat them bad enough for my liking!Now more than ever

Wow Mau you sound like you are sure of a whole lot of unproven guilt. Good for you.

 

[John]

This is also very ridiculous. The Jags and the Vikings haven't won anything and aren't ever in the payoffs so why then would they? Man you guys, give it up you'r becoming more and more obnoxious with the more darts you throw.

you haven't heard of due process? Jeez, I'm not even a Pats fan and I'll give them that.

 

[upstater]

“One complication with the pressure units that we usually use, in this case PSI (Pressure per Square Inch) is that we are measuring the pressure above the atmospheric pressure,” Schmaltz said. “Air at a fixed volume- and I assume the size of a football stays pretty much the same whether it has a PSI of 13 or 11- if the size stays the same, and you change the temperature of the air, the pressure inside the football changes as well.”

The key question, as outlined by Schmaltz, is where the balls were tested prior to the game. If the balls were tested indoors, where the temperature was likely above the 50 degree temperature outdoors Sunday, then the pressure inside the ball would drop once the ball is moved outdoors and begins to cool off.

“If they had inflated the balls inside the building and put it to the minimum amount, and then brought it outside to temperatures that were about 30 degrees lower, that would drop the PSI by between 1 and 2,” Schmaltz explained.

According to Schmaltz, once the temperature of the air inside the ball drops to the temperature of the air outside the ball, the PSI would be changed. Schmaltz estimated that it would take no more than 30 minutes for the temperature of the air inside the ball to acclimate to the temperature of the air outside.

 

[upstater]

This is also very ridiculous. The Jags and the Vikings haven't won anything and aren't ever in the payoffs so why then would they? Man you guys, give it up you'r becoming more and more obnoxious with the more darts you throw.

What are you talking about? Why would they what? Are you saying cheating is OK during the regular season but not the postseason?

 

[upstater]

you haven't heard of due process? Jeez, I'm not even a Pats fan and I'll give them that.

This may be one area where I agree with Mau. This is sports and the NFL. Anyone can say anything they want (Brady said that too), but the key is, Goodell can do whatever the hell he wants. No due process.

 

[John]

 

[Deepster]

Nothing to do with logic, everything to do with ingrained bias.
Off the top of my head:

• Faulty pressure gauge - Should be for all the footballs.
  
• Differences water vapor content in gas used to inflate - Should be for all the footballs.
  
• Differences in inflation procedure - Should be for all the footballs.
  
• There was no difference - the narrative provided so far is inaccurate.

I worked QA for many years, in science or engineering for 3 times that period. I can cite numerous examples where anomalous results occurred as a result of different procedures, different materials, or faulty test equipment. Until the NFL come out and says something substantial, all you are doing is speculation based on internal bias.

I don't argue any of your hypotheses as "possible"....but tell me how the percentages change when you have 24 balls in the "control group" and 0 of 12 are impacted for the Colts and 12 of 12 are impacted for the Patriots.

 

[Deepster]

It feels witch hunty to me. If this were another team, say the Vikings or Jaguars (ie. losers) then there would not be this rush to judgement. But because the Patriots are an organization that's cheated in the past, there's a rush to judgement by irrational fans of other clubs. I think people need to just slow down and let the process finish, and check their bias at the door.

Fixed.

 

[CL82]

I wrote the following in another thread. It is certainly applicable here as well:

The NFL was too quick in exonerating the refs, but imagine the integrity of the game charges if it came out that the refs didn't check the pressure and there was an incongruity between the pressure gauges? I consider the refs in this case to play the part of a police officer in a criminal case. I have been voir dired twice in my life and in both cases they first question the prosecuting attorney asked me is if I believe cops can make mistakes or always tell the truth. Obviously the answer is yes and no to those questions, respectively. They are human. So are referees. But what's in it for them to lie? It's not to set up the Patriots per se, but it's to deflect blame for not doing their job entirely. The officials are "All-Star" crews who don't work together in the regular season. It is just as possible for something to fall through the cracks (probably more) as it is for a rogue ball boy to stick a pin in the ball.

I also think there is a chance that when Peter King reported that the NFL was appalled earlier in the week, they could have been referring to the whistleblower. There is a possibility the NFL thinks this is akin to a baseball player rubbing out the back line of the batters box to get 4 additional inches to see the ball and make a decision to swing. It's a largely unenforced rule and an unenforced rule is no rule. Now the NFL is are retroactively trying to piece together their defense. I think the reason the NFL hasn't made anything officially public is because at the end of the day, the burden of proof is on the league and the evidence is far too circumstantial to formally punish the Patriots.

"voir dired" I can't hear that phrase without thinking about "My Cousin Vinny."

 

[John]

Fixed.

So a person, club, organization, etc cannot be rehabilitated? Once a crook always a crook? As UConn fans, I think we need to think very hard about that, seems to me we have/had the same reputation as the Patriots - UNLV of the East, etc.

 

[upstater]

I don't argue any of your hypotheses as "possible"....but tell me how the percentages change when you have 24 balls in the "control group" and 0 of 12 are impacted for the Colts and 12 of 12 are impacted for the Patriots.

13.5 - 1 = 12.5
12.5 - 1 = 11.5

Or refs didn't check

 

[CL82]

So a person, club, organization, etc cannot be rehabilitated? Once a crook always a crook? As UConn fans, I think we need to think very hard about that, seems to me we have/had the same reputation as the Patriots - UNLV of the East, etc.

I wouldn't concede that crook label quite so easily.

 

[upstater]

So a person, club, organization, etc cannot be rehabilitated? Once a crook always a crook? As UConn fans, I think we need to think very hard about that, seems to me we have/had the same reputation as the Patriots - UNLV of the East, etc.

I'm starting to think that the reason the Patriots have won more games than anyone in the last 15 years isn't because of Belichick's brilliance, but because the NFL is filled with stupid idiots, and that idiocy is matched only by the people who cover them in the media.

 

[Deepster]

So a person, club, organization, etc cannot be rehabilitated? Once a crook always a crook? As UConn fans, I think we need to think very hard about that, seems to me we have/had the same reputation as the Patriots - UNLV of the East, etc.

Think hard about it? I don't have to.

UConn did cheat. Jim Calhoun was a cheater. He was caught. More than once. And we were penalized by the NCAA.

When I look over his career here? I'll live with that. My non-UConn friends call him a cheater all the time and you know what? I have NEVER said "No, he's not!!!" I acknowledge that UConn/Calhoun have been caught doing things they shouldn't and.....oh, well. I'll still take the titles and all the good he did here.

Get me one Pats fan willing to say the same and look at this deflate controversy the same way.

 

[Dave Carlson]

When Tom Brady took off his helmet and shook out his hair, the simultaneous gasps from the ladies (and some of the gentlemen) in the crowd sucked some air right out of those balls. Happens every game. That's just science, people. Don't you believe in science?