OT: Need Law School Advice

[District-Husky]

I've been a lawyer sinec 1997, went to school in Pittsburgh, worked in Philadelphia, and now work in DC. I do not think law school location makes a difference. I've also never gotten a job lead or a job based on alumni - however - I have based on connections I made while working.

My advise would be to go to the best school for the least amount of money. Law school is expensive and there are still not a lot of jobs available (based on the resumes I see come across my desk I'm shocked at the quality of candidates that are out of work). I think you need to line up the ranks of all those schools with how much it will actually cost.

 

[Prezidint]

Ya it was Paul.

Classic moments in his class:
We read a case where guy A puts in a bunch of solar panels on a suburban lot.
Guy B, several years later, pays for plans to put up his dream house on the adjoining lot. It's going to be 3 stories and 15 feet from the property line - both are allowable by zoning code.
Guy A sues and asks for a permanent injunction, saying it would be unfair to block his light given that he already has the panels in.
I thought it was a no-brainer. Guy A loses. Guy B followed the rules, and Guy A knew or could have known about the rules when he put his solar panels in.
out of about 60 of us, about 58 thought Guy A should win. I was appalled.

2nd moment was when he asked "how do you think judge reached this decision?" I answered, "he decided on the result that he wanted, and then he worked backwards to try to get to the law." He scoffed. Next time he asked that question, on a different case, I raised my hand again and gave the same answer again. He cut me off. Never called on me again after asking that question, despite me having my hand raised every time.

I thought he was a very good teacher and a nice guy who was burdened by the fact that he was the offspring of two successful attorneys
(IIRC).

You just can't grow up knowing much about anything that matters in that situation.

 

[nomar]

I graduated law school in 2002. I don't have an answer for you, but here's some further food for thought.

Location matters in that a lower-tiered school will get more respect locally.

For instance, here in NYC, grads of Fordham, Brooklyn, Cardozo and St. John's can work at great firms. Of course, they need to do really well in school. But there are large alumni bases of each school in NYC. That doesn't mean one alumnus is going to hook up another alumnus. But there is an awareness among firms (I'm my firm's de facto hiring partner) that a school, even if it is low ranked, will churn out a number of good candidates every year. Anyone who has worked at a big firm has worked with numerous talented grads of each school.

Case in point: UConn gets respect in CT. Everybody working at a CT firm has worked with numerous talented UConn Law grads. That's not really the case in DC. Catholic might have a number of lawyers at good DC firms. I don't know, but they might.

I'm generally a proponent of the "pick the best school" strategy, but to be blunt, none of those schools are that amazing. At any of those places, you will need to bust your hump to distinguish yourself.

Don't listen to the s in this thread who say "don't be a lawyer." I hate when people do that. It doesn't make them sound "wise," it makes them sound unhappy and presumptive.

I assume you've thought it through. But generally I counsel anyone who is thinking of going to law school to consider these things: (1) make sure you really want to go -- that you're not applying simply because you can't think of something better; (2) understand that, unless Daddy's paying for law school (which in your case he's not), you don't go to law school for a degree -- you will need to actually practice law to pay off your loans; and (3) you will need to work your butt off -- you will need to be extraordinary in this job market to find a job that you will appreciate having.

A friend of mine recently went to New York Law School (not NYU), turning down a number of "better" schools because they gave him a ton of money. He finished #2 in his class but still struggled to get interviews. A mutual friend of ours who was a senior associate at a famous NYC firm and is now a partner there basically got him a job there. So even getting straight A's wasn't enough (although it was necessary). It's tough out there. Good luck.

 

[Excalibur]

Classic moments in his class:
We read a case where guy A puts in a bunch of solar panels on a suburban lot.
Guy B, several years later, pays for plans to put up his dream house on the adjoining lot. It's going to be 3 stories and 15 feet from the property line - both are allowable by zoning code.
Guy A sues and asks for a permanent injunction, saying it would be unfair to block his light given that he already has the panels in.
I thought it was a no-brainer. Guy A loses. Guy B followed the rules, and Guy A knew or could have known about the rules when he put his solar panels in.
out of about 60 of us, about 58 thought Guy A should win. I was appalled.

2nd moment was when he asked "how do you think judge reached this decision?" I answered, "he decided on the result that he wanted, and then he worked backwards to try to get to the law." He scoffed. Next time he asked that question, on a different case, I raised my hand again and gave the same answer again. He cut me off. Never called on me again after asking that question, despite me having my hand raised every time.

I thought he was a very good teacher and a nice guy who was burdened by the fact that he was the offspring of two successful attorneys
(IIRC).

You just can't grow up knowing much about anything that matters in that situation.

I never thought much of Paul. His finest moment was holding his Corporate Finance class on 9/11 after the planes hit the buildings, saying that "I know that there are major events happening right now, but we have our own business to attend to".

 

[WestHartHusk]

I hadn't seen this posted yet so I thought I would share, looks like UConn Law is getting some new blood as well (Link). As someone who is also considering UConn law this upcoming fall is the concensus on this board that this is a good move? Based on what I have seen to date it feels like our new President is trying to put strong individuals in place to take the University to the next level, hopefully this is part of that initiative...

 

[Prezidint]

I hadn't seen this posted yet so I thought I would share, looks like UConn Law is getting some new blood as well (Link).

Oh, that's special.
The liberal intelligentsia who staff the professorial ranks at UConn are adamant that rankings shouldn't matter and are based on the wrong criteria.
Our rank drops, and the Dean offers the following: "Paul wrote a mass email to the law school blaming the drop in ranking partly on an insufficient scholarship budget at UConn, which he said makes it difficult to "recruit all the bright students we wish to attract."
How about this Dean - take the money you're blowing on affirmative action for the purpose of bringing in targeted groups with sub-par scores, and use it to bring in those of modest means, whatever their race, who are kick-ass students.

What's that Dean? You'd rather see the school go down in flames than see your liberal educational ideology go down in flames?

Good thing somebody above you disagrees. Strongly.

 

[HuskyFan16]

hmm one day after this thread starts, dean paull steps down. looks like the law school reads the boneyard

 

[gibhunter]

I'm also considering law schools, but with family in tow I need a full time job so I can only go part time to local ones. That's basically UConn or Q. I'd hate to be unemployed after law school, but it seems that even after UConn 20% are unemployed. That's giving me a pause considering Q and with my avg LSAT my chances with UConn are not very good. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Good thing I'm not really interested in big law. Public defender/prosecutor or small practice are what I'm after though it could change while at school...if it ever happens.

 

[UConn9604]

hmm one day after this thread starts, dean paull steps down. looks like the law school reads the boneyard

Or, looks like Dr. Herbst reads the Boneyard... she's not known to act slowly.

 

[HeGotGame]

I agree 100% with this. I chose a lower ranked school in Boston over UConn law because that is where I wanted to practice and live after school. It was a great decision, was able to get a job through connections I made while working in the city during school.

Also, just my two cents but while you are in school focus on getting as much practical experience as possible. When looking for a job, especially in this market, the best thing on your resume(outside of grades of course) is your prior legal experience. It is not law review or other groups/activities at the school. Take an unpaid internship your 1L summer over a job outside of the law that pays. This is the best way to get a job your 2L summer and will help you immensely in getting job post graduation.

Go to school where you would like to live and practice. Take advantage of the alumni base for internships and part-time jobs.

 

[nycscooby]

Wherever you go on that list, if you don't finish your first year in the Top 20% of your class don't go back. Where you are ranked is (almost) all that matters. For those of you who say "if you love the law..." you can't really understand that until you have been out and working.

 

[beerfan]

I'm also considering law schools, but with family in tow I need a full time job so I can only go part time to local ones. That's basically UConn or Q. I'd hate to be unemployed after law school, but it seems that even after UConn 20% are unemployed. That's giving me a pause considering Q and with my avg LSAT my chances with UConn are not very good. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Good thing I'm not really interested in big law. Public defender/prosecutor or small practice are what I'm after though it could change while at school...if it ever happens.

I know of a couple of people who got jobs as paralegals for one of the big insurance companies in downtown Hartford. They have a program where they pay for your law school while you go at night then you have to continue to work for them for a number of years. It is a tough way to do it and you will have no life for a number of years, but it is a way to get paid while you get a free education and a guaranteed job after you are done. One is still there, and one moved on to a big firm after his time was up.

 

[Fishy]

I am not a lawyer, but I am much smarter on the internet than any of the lawyers in this thread so I would pretty much take my advice and use it to guide the rest of your life.

Joe Biden finished like last in his law school class -- I've met him, that was no accident. He might have been a resource room kid.

So my advice is that if you do not finish in the top half of your class, go into politics.

 

[JTLAW]

Everyone seems to be giving you decent advice on here. The law profession is tough and produces a lot of D-bags but also some good ones. Getting through law school is no great accomplishment. There are some real idiot attorneys out there. A guy, like Prezident who wants to tell you how much he made out of law school is the typical egotistical lying dick who everyone hates around the water cooler so disregard his posts. You really need to love the law or you will hate the dog eat dog world of law. Good Luck young Counselor.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Prezident is FrankIvy, right?

I loved law school, it was a great opportunity to catch up on my recreational drug use and work on my jump shot, but as far as practicing goes you've really got to find something you enjoy within the law.

I've found the longer I'm in it that the true stars really, genuinely love it - whether it's transactional work at a firm, government work, public interest - and the rest are kind of slogging through it too scared to do something else. Try to avoid that group.

As far as picking a school, if you're not looking at one of the handful of schools that are going to place you anywhere no matter how you do, I'd echo the people that say go to school where you want to practice, find the right balance between reputation in the community and cost, and bust your ass to make sure you're at the top of your class. The market is not getting better any time soon, if ever.

 

[Prezidint]

A guy, like Prezident who wants to tell you how much he made out of law school is the typical egotistical lying dick who everyone hates around the water cooler so disregard his posts.

I made 55 grand out of law school and that makes me a lying dick? Because, what? Because I like to admit that I was working 60 hours a week to make 55 grand, which turns out to be 18 bucks an hour? Seriously? That's your logic stream? Or is it the fact that I said I'm working for postal wages now?
Or, really, is it that you have an inferiority complex and you can't stand the fact that some attorneys out there have made way more than you'll ever make?

Sounds like the latter to me.

Hey man, I was in patent law. Very lucrative. What can I say? Not a lot of folks running around who know what reverse transcriptase and res judicata are.

 

[AfgHusky15]

I just would like to sincerely thank everyone for taking time out of their day to help give me some advice and words of caution. I was actually surprised to see so many responses (maybe a sign of the overly saturated legal market ), but seriously thanks to everyone.

Just to answer a few of some posters questions. I applied to a boatload of schools bc I was granted a fee waiver through the LSAC (don't come from a family made of money, and my father also just helped put me and my two siblings through college at the same time). I had a why not attitude with the fee waiver and I wanted as many options as possible in terms of area of school and scholarship offers.

I also know that going to any of those schools I must finish in the top 20% if not the top 10% and must have strong local connections. I will most likely end up going to the school that will end of giving me the most schoalrship aid on that list, except for Q, I am in the midst of bargaining for greater schoalrship rewards with all the schools.

Just have one more question for anyone who still has the time or care to chip in with whatever they know ( I will also send a PM to those posters who have said I could). I have gotten on the waiting list for a couple of decent schools:

BC
William and Mary
Washington& Lee

Does anyone know exactly how big the waiting lists are and the chances of coming off of one? (the schools are very vague and I know they waitlist a ton of people in order to reduce theri admittance rate for rankings purposes) What are the chances that there will still be any money left for fianncial aid? and should I go to BC with no money offered over say Penn State or uConn in which I would be paying only half tution?


Thanks a lot once again everyone!

 

[jrazz12]

I wouldn't count on a wait list at all. First off, there's probably not going to be any money for you at that point. Also, most schools won't even contact you about it, or they could be like Fordham and tell you you didn't make the cut a week into your first semester at another school (like they did with me). If scholarship dough is important to you, and it should be, I'd say forget the wait lists.

 

[UConn Esq]

Q offers scholarship money to most people but what they don't really tell you is that its very difficult to keep scholarships in lawschool. Lawschool operates on a curve so to keep something like a 3.3 GPA is actually much more difficult than it sounds. Its not like undergrad where in theory every person can have a 4.0. This is why class rank is such an important statistic. Another common lawschool move is they give lets say 75 people full rides - they can put all of those people in the same section which all but assures that most of them wont keep the scholarship.

Basically I say this because in lawschool it doesnt always pay to go to where you're offered the most money. You want to go to the school with the best reputation thats close to where you want to practice law. Of all those schools, Brooklyn is your best bet for working in NYC. UConn would be good if you want to stay in CT. Temple has a great reputation if you want to be a litigator and PSU is the most "on the rise" school with Nova being the most on the decline.

 

[jrazz12]

Q offers scholarship money to most people but what they don't really tell you is that its very difficult to keep scholarships in lawschool. Lawschool operates on a curve so to keep something like a 3.3 GPA is actually much more difficult than it sounds. Its not like undergrad where in theory every person can have a 4.0. This is why class rank is such an important statistic. Another common lawschool move is they give lets say 75 people full rides - they can put all of those people in the same section which all but assures that most of them wont keep the scholarship.

Basically I say this because in lawschool it doesnt always pay to go to where you're offered the most money. You want to go to the school with the best reputation thats close to where you want to practice law. Of all those schools, Brooklyn is your best bet for working in NYC. UConn would be good if you want to stay in CT. Temple has a great reputation if you want to be a litigator and PSU is the most "on the rise" school with Nova being the most on the decline.

Great point about maintaining the scholarship. At my school you had to remain top third for that to be renewed. I know a lot of people who lost theirs after the first year. Nobody really tells you about that when you're coming in. Definitely something to keep in mind as you're evaluating scholarship offers.

 

[UConn Esq]

I just would like to sincerely thank everyone for taking time out of their day to help give me some advice and words of caution. I was actually surprised to see so many responses (maybe a sign of the overly saturated legal market ), but seriously thanks to everyone.

Just to answer a few of some posters questions. I applied to a boatload of schools bc I was granted a fee waiver through the LSAC (don't come from a family made of money, and my father also just helped put me and my two siblings through college at the same time). I had a why not attitude with the fee waiver and I wanted as many options as possible in terms of area of school and scholarship offers.

I also know that going to any of those schools I must finish in the top 20% if not the top 10% and must have strong local connections. I will most likely end up going to the school that will end of giving me the most schoalrship aid on that list, except for Q, I am in the midst of bargaining for greater schoalrship rewards with all the schools.

Just have one more question for anyone who still has the time or care to chip in with whatever they know ( I will also send a PM to those posters who have said I could). I have gotten on the waiting list for a couple of decent schools:

BC
William and Mary
Washington& Lee

Does anyone know exactly how big the waiting lists are and the chances of coming off of one? (the schools are very vague and I know they waitlist a ton of people in order to reduce theri admittance rate for rankings purposes) What are the chances that there will still be any money left for fianncial aid? and should I go to BC with no money offered over say Penn State or uConn in which I would be paying only half tution?


Thanks a lot once again everyone!

Just saw the waitlist thing. I was waitlisted at Cordoza and got in THE DAY BEFORE classes started. It was too late for me to even consider it there. I tell you this just as a warning that it could literally be the day before school starts.

William & Mary does a great job recruiting in the northeast fyi - great school to consider no matter where you live. Congrats on all these schools btw.

 

[Nostical]

I went to law school four years nights while I was working to support my family. After graduating (magna cum laude, no less) I decided to abandon law and pursue a career in business, which I don't regret., The bottom line is a lot of what happens to shape your future will occur from lots of different places and people yet unknown. There's a bit of fate to all of it. But what I've learned is that some of the most succesful people are not afraid to ask for help and guidance just as you have. I'm betting you'll do just fine.

 

[progrocks]

I was wait listed from the school I went to. I sent them copies of admission letters from better schools and said if they accept me I will attend and they accepted me the next day (my wife wanted to do her grad program at that school). I did not get any money though and had to pay out of state for three years. I know one girl who started at one school, did a day, and got into my school two days before classes started, and ended up leaving the first school to go to the second. That cost a lot of money to do. In other words, do not count on the wait list if you can not force your way off it early.

UConn sent me a application waiver but I did not even bother applying. I would have loved to pay that rate and would have gotten some money too. Oh well.

 

[uc1974]

I applied to and was accepted at both W&M and W&L (this was many years ago-40+). I am a native of VA. I opted for UConn because of the cost (or lack thereof) and the fact that I was actually informally recruited (they wanted people form outside the NE). Unless you have financial advantages at either I would opt out of each. Williamsburg is a nice town but it's slow and has lots of tourists. Lexington is lovely but it's in the middle of nowhere. Both W&L and VMI are 90% male, if that matters to you. The closest big city is my exciting home town of Lynchburg. I had a great career out of UConn, I was competent but not a star, and I cultivated relationships that helped me always. When I left Vietnam I swore never to work a 80/100 hour week again and I never did. I didn't make a fortune but I have two great pensions from government and no healthcare costs. Government isn't what it once was but the residuals are still fairly good. Consider it. AUSA is a great start even if you don't plan to stay.

 

[Mattydog]

Well, having been a lawyer for some time and having known hundreds upon hundreds of lawyers, I'll throw in my two hundred dollar bills:

1. Based on your one post, you seem to have the perfect anal-retentive, overbearing, cross all Ts and dot all Is, twice, too much attention to small detail hobgoblin . . . etc. , mentality that seems to be a prerequisite for entry in the profession of law.

2. The fact that you applied to such a broad range of schools is ample proof that you a poor decision maker. On the other hand, the fact that you asked for advice might suggest that you are wise enough to realize that you are a poor decision maker. Of course, if you're like 99% of the attorneys that I know, the question wasn't posited originally to elicit advice, but rather to trumpet the fact that you got accepted to law school. I can imagine you at age 4 running around the living room yelling to the house guests, "AfgHusky15 make in potty! AfgHusky15 make in potty!"

Congratulations. You got into law school. You've made the small group of 1.1 million blood suckers running around the U.S. leveraging the rigged judicial system to leech sinfully high fees off of Americans who, for the most part, don't know the basic process of law.

3. I agree that Q is a school. I would only look at top 2 or 3 grads each year from that school.

4. Forget about going to a school because it's got a "big alumni base." That's horse-crap. I never got a job based on the fact that I went to UConn Law.

5. You'll get hired or not based on these things, and almost only these things - law school rank, graduation with honors/cum laude etc., grades, undergrad institution, extracurricular performance (moot court, law review, etc.). If you're a dude, as long as you're not obese or butt-ugly, you're good. If you're female, how attractive you are will impact your opportunities. Nothing better than having a hot associate who does the job. If you've got a horse face and you wear a man's suit, you fall into the butt-ugly guy category - you'll need to get hired on your credentials alone.

6. Law is a business. It's the business of using the fact that you have to go to law school to get a magic union card in order to represent dumb- Americans out of their self-caused problems. It's a career based, in large part, on conflict.

You want to know how you can pick out the future lawyers among kids? Go to a 5th grad class room and find the know-it-all kid who rolls his/her eyes when some other kid is struggling to read aloud. That's the future lawyer. The can't-read kid is the future client.

Of course, if you don't want to swim in the liquid feces of the ignorant proletariat's divorces, car injuries, bankruptcies, will disputes, criminal acts, and so on, then you can always work for soul-sucking corporations, in which case your job may be arguing why some c-cks-king CEO at some corporation that employs 12 year olds in Indonesia to hand-shovel lead and mercury drippings off of barges into ocean currents should not be criminally indicted for knowingly selling lethally defective products to apathetic citizens of the empire.

Hey, and if you just suck at law, then you can always try to get a job as a public defender.

Sure you should go. Remember what Shakespeare said: "first, kill all the lawyers." It was true then, it's true now.

But I'll help you out, and teach you the most important thing I learned in law school, which I taught myself, right here, right now - the Constitution is an illusion. You have no rights. What you have is the illusion of rights, and, when the next "terror" attack comes, or the one after that, your "Constitutional rights" will be thrown aside as easily as the document itself would be.

Law is a racket. It pays well, and regarding the "economy" and all that hoo-haa, remember that, even if unemployment is at 30%, all you've got to do is be in the top 70% to have a job.

Took fewer than 15 years to get to that level of cynicism.

Nice work Prez.

 

[HuskyK0840]

for the love of god, don't go to Quinnipiac. Worst decision ever.

 

[nomar]

Just saw the waitlist thing. I was waitlisted at Cordoza and got in THE DAY BEFORE classes started. It was too late for me to even consider it there. I tell you this just as a warning that it could literally be the day before school starts.

William & Mary does a great job recruiting in the northeast fyi - great school to consider no matter where you live. Congrats on all these schools btw.

I was friends in law school with a girl who got off the waitlist about a week before classes started, and I used to make fun of her by telling her she was the school's least favorite student. I haven't gotten any nicer over the years.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Nonsense.

At any sizable, reputable firm, the FIRST thing they'll look for on your resume is where you went to school.
Where I worked, UConn Law was considered low-end (ivys all around) and everybody knew where everybody went to school and it mattered.

Problem with getting advice on the Internet is that you don't get to see who's giving it and what they've done.

Most of Prezident's original advice was sound. Pick a law school where you want to practice. Penn State will be great in Pennsylvania, maybe Jersey and Ohio, otherwise not. There are a handful of national reputation schools that will be recruited nationwide, everything else is regional. You didn't get into any national schools. Also understand that the only thing that matters is the last place you went. One good friend of mine was #3 in our class at Kansas (similar to Penn St. and some others on your list), but went to NYU for an LLM in Tax. That's the #1 tax school, so that's golden at every big firm in the country.

As for the point about where you went to school. Among the big firms, it continues to matter until you do something to override it. That includes just being flat out great at your job (this is more difficult than you may imagine). A big part of that at a big firm is sales. Can you sell yourself and your firm? If you didn't go to law school, would you ever consider a career in sales or politics? If not, big firm life may not treat you well.

If, like me, you find private practice is filled with bloviating a**holes who have no real lives, the corporate in-house world is far more understanding of those who (a) worked their way up despite a less prestigious education (b) may not look like Hollywood stars (c) consider business savvy and problem solving more valuable than sales and networking.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I agree 100% with this. I chose a lower ranked school in Boston over UConn law because that is where I wanted to practice and live after school. It was a great decision, was able to get a job through connections I made while working in the city during school.

Also, just my two cents but while you are in school focus on getting as much practical experience as possible. When looking for a job, especially in this market, the best thing on your resume(outside of grades of course) is your prior legal experience. It is not law review or other groups/activities at the school. Take an unpaid internship your 1L summer over a job outside of the law that pays. This is the best way to get a job your 2L summer and will help you immensely in getting job post graduation.

If Suffolk, it has a good local reputation (New England LS to a lesser degree) for producing practical, capable people who are willing to work. Loads of them in Boston firms and corporations. But it sure isn't cheap for its ranking.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Just saw the waitlist thing. I was waitlisted at Cordoza and got in THE DAY BEFORE classes started. It was too late for me to even consider it there. I tell you this just as a warning that it could literally be the day before school starts.

My 1L Civ Pro professor said,"law is an isty bitsy picayune profession." In that spirit, it's Cardozo ("rhymes with Bozo"). Cordoza is more like that Chrysler with "rich Corinthian leather."