OT: Need Law School Advice

[HuskyFan16]

Since this topic has been broached, I was at UConn's admitted student's day and it was absolutely abysmal. I mean I recognize everybody is sitting in that room trying to separate the bullshit from the useful information, but my God the school could at least be somewhat creative (or entertaining for that matter) in trying to hide one in the other. How the hell is this school supposed to attract the best class when its serving stale french toast for breakfast, throwing the senile, stream of consiousness speaking dean onto the stage to drone for an hour, and then giving the old "hey the economy is changing, but change needs lawyers right?" By the time they started a mock class (just whateveryone wants to do on their saturday morning) half the hall was making their way to feign "going to the bathroom." Not sure how many people they thought they convinced, but it would't have tipped me over the fence if I was sitting on it.

 

[Kitaman]

Wow, prettiest ladies on campus just doesn't matter anymore, eh?

 

[Prezidint]

throwing the senile, stream of consiousness speaking dean onto the stage to drone for an hour,

Was that J. Paul?
Gotta say, I love the ivory tower liberal professors having to bite the bullet and convert from legal philosophers to common hucksters.
When I was on campus, there was a big protest against having the JAG recruiter on campus during career day, or whatever they call it.
Virtually every professor and half the class turned out. Big to-do, if you will. Committed to protesting until the JAG wasn't allowed on campus, them being gay-haters and all.
The issue was settled soon thereafter when the Feds said to UConn, "allow the JAGs on campus or we're cutting your federal money." UConn main calls up the law school and says, "end the protest, JAGs are in, get another job if you don't like it."
Beautiful, as that's called "getting your bluff called." Turns out that the cozy professorship salary was more important than the underlying gay rights issue, and it fizzled out.

Professors are like precocious children there - intelligent, informative, often entertaining, and with little or no real world experience. They're cute, but dangerous, because they have the veneer of authority.

I loved UConn Law - I learned a bunch and it was very empowering. My first job paid 55k, I got a 20k raise in 3 months, I moved to BigLaw at 9 months during the craze in the early 2000s, and I was up closer to 150 with bonus. Maxed out at twice that. Currently making closer to postal worker wages - and fine with that. BigLaw owns you. Remember that.

 

[Danzz]

Both of my children are attorneys (Marquette and Uconn). Uconn makes the most sense financially unless other schools bring your net cost lower. The advantage of Uconn is that Connecticut firms recruit students and it may be easier to find a job and a clerk position if you are going to stay in Connecticut. It may also help with networking down the line.
They all pretty much teach the same courses. Every lawyer I know says law is a self taught profession.
One of the advantages of a law degree is you can get out and do something else. My daughter who is also an RN works in risk management at a major NY hospital so you can do other things with a JD.
BTW, since I only pay for undergraduate degrees, they each owe about $100K. Best of luck!

 

[HuskyFan16]

Ya it was Paul.

 

[District-Husky]

I've been a lawyer sinec 1997, went to school in Pittsburgh, worked in Philadelphia, and now work in DC. I do not think law school location makes a difference. I've also never gotten a job lead or a job based on alumni - however - I have based on connections I made while working.

My advise would be to go to the best school for the least amount of money. Law school is expensive and there are still not a lot of jobs available (based on the resumes I see come across my desk I'm shocked at the quality of candidates that are out of work). I think you need to line up the ranks of all those schools with how much it will actually cost.

 

[Prezidint]

Ya it was Paul.

Classic moments in his class:
We read a case where guy A puts in a bunch of solar panels on a suburban lot.
Guy B, several years later, pays for plans to put up his dream house on the adjoining lot. It's going to be 3 stories and 15 feet from the property line - both are allowable by zoning code.
Guy A sues and asks for a permanent injunction, saying it would be unfair to block his light given that he already has the panels in.
I thought it was a no-brainer. Guy A loses. Guy B followed the rules, and Guy A knew or could have known about the rules when he put his solar panels in.
out of about 60 of us, about 58 thought Guy A should win. I was appalled.

2nd moment was when he asked "how do you think judge reached this decision?" I answered, "he decided on the result that he wanted, and then he worked backwards to try to get to the law." He scoffed. Next time he asked that question, on a different case, I raised my hand again and gave the same answer again. He cut me off. Never called on me again after asking that question, despite me having my hand raised every time.

I thought he was a very good teacher and a nice guy who was burdened by the fact that he was the offspring of two successful attorneys
(IIRC).

You just can't grow up knowing much about anything that matters in that situation.

 

[nomar]

I graduated law school in 2002. I don't have an answer for you, but here's some further food for thought.

Location matters in that a lower-tiered school will get more respect locally.

For instance, here in NYC, grads of Fordham, Brooklyn, Cardozo and St. John's can work at great firms. Of course, they need to do really well in school. But there are large alumni bases of each school in NYC. That doesn't mean one alumnus is going to hook up another alumnus. But there is an awareness among firms (I'm my firm's de facto hiring partner) that a school, even if it is low ranked, will churn out a number of good candidates every year. Anyone who has worked at a big firm has worked with numerous talented grads of each school.

Case in point: UConn gets respect in CT. Everybody working at a CT firm has worked with numerous talented UConn Law grads. That's not really the case in DC. Catholic might have a number of lawyers at good DC firms. I don't know, but they might.

I'm generally a proponent of the "pick the best school" strategy, but to be blunt, none of those schools are that amazing. At any of those places, you will need to bust your hump to distinguish yourself.

Don't listen to the s in this thread who say "don't be a lawyer." I hate when people do that. It doesn't make them sound "wise," it makes them sound unhappy and presumptive.

I assume you've thought it through. But generally I counsel anyone who is thinking of going to law school to consider these things: (1) make sure you really want to go -- that you're not applying simply because you can't think of something better; (2) understand that, unless Daddy's paying for law school (which in your case he's not), you don't go to law school for a degree -- you will need to actually practice law to pay off your loans; and (3) you will need to work your butt off -- you will need to be extraordinary in this job market to find a job that you will appreciate having.

A friend of mine recently went to New York Law School (not NYU), turning down a number of "better" schools because they gave him a ton of money. He finished #2 in his class but still struggled to get interviews. A mutual friend of ours who was a senior associate at a famous NYC firm and is now a partner there basically got him a job there. So even getting straight A's wasn't enough (although it was necessary). It's tough out there. Good luck.

 

[Excalibur]

Classic moments in his class:
We read a case where guy A puts in a bunch of solar panels on a suburban lot.
Guy B, several years later, pays for plans to put up his dream house on the adjoining lot. It's going to be 3 stories and 15 feet from the property line - both are allowable by zoning code.
Guy A sues and asks for a permanent injunction, saying it would be unfair to block his light given that he already has the panels in.
I thought it was a no-brainer. Guy A loses. Guy B followed the rules, and Guy A knew or could have known about the rules when he put his solar panels in.
out of about 60 of us, about 58 thought Guy A should win. I was appalled.

2nd moment was when he asked "how do you think judge reached this decision?" I answered, "he decided on the result that he wanted, and then he worked backwards to try to get to the law." He scoffed. Next time he asked that question, on a different case, I raised my hand again and gave the same answer again. He cut me off. Never called on me again after asking that question, despite me having my hand raised every time.

I thought he was a very good teacher and a nice guy who was burdened by the fact that he was the offspring of two successful attorneys
(IIRC).

You just can't grow up knowing much about anything that matters in that situation.

I never thought much of Paul. His finest moment was holding his Corporate Finance class on 9/11 after the planes hit the buildings, saying that "I know that there are major events happening right now, but we have our own business to attend to".

 

[WestHartHusk]

I hadn't seen this posted yet so I thought I would share, looks like UConn Law is getting some new blood as well (Link). As someone who is also considering UConn law this upcoming fall is the concensus on this board that this is a good move? Based on what I have seen to date it feels like our new President is trying to put strong individuals in place to take the University to the next level, hopefully this is part of that initiative...

 

[Prezidint]

I hadn't seen this posted yet so I thought I would share, looks like UConn Law is getting some new blood as well (Link).

Oh, that's special.
The liberal intelligentsia who staff the professorial ranks at UConn are adamant that rankings shouldn't matter and are based on the wrong criteria.
Our rank drops, and the Dean offers the following: "Paul wrote a mass email to the law school blaming the drop in ranking partly on an insufficient scholarship budget at UConn, which he said makes it difficult to "recruit all the bright students we wish to attract."
How about this Dean - take the money you're blowing on affirmative action for the purpose of bringing in targeted groups with sub-par scores, and use it to bring in those of modest means, whatever their race, who are kick-ass students.

What's that Dean? You'd rather see the school go down in flames than see your liberal educational ideology go down in flames?

Good thing somebody above you disagrees. Strongly.

 

[HuskyFan16]

hmm one day after this thread starts, dean paull steps down. looks like the law school reads the boneyard

 

[gibhunter]

I'm also considering law schools, but with family in tow I need a full time job so I can only go part time to local ones. That's basically UConn or Q. I'd hate to be unemployed after law school, but it seems that even after UConn 20% are unemployed. That's giving me a pause considering Q and with my avg LSAT my chances with UConn are not very good. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Good thing I'm not really interested in big law. Public defender/prosecutor or small practice are what I'm after though it could change while at school...if it ever happens.

 

[UConn9604]

hmm one day after this thread starts, dean paull steps down. looks like the law school reads the boneyard

Or, looks like Dr. Herbst reads the Boneyard... she's not known to act slowly.

 

[HeGotGame]

I agree 100% with this. I chose a lower ranked school in Boston over UConn law because that is where I wanted to practice and live after school. It was a great decision, was able to get a job through connections I made while working in the city during school.

Also, just my two cents but while you are in school focus on getting as much practical experience as possible. When looking for a job, especially in this market, the best thing on your resume(outside of grades of course) is your prior legal experience. It is not law review or other groups/activities at the school. Take an unpaid internship your 1L summer over a job outside of the law that pays. This is the best way to get a job your 2L summer and will help you immensely in getting job post graduation.

Go to school where you would like to live and practice. Take advantage of the alumni base for internships and part-time jobs.

 

[nycscooby]

Wherever you go on that list, if you don't finish your first year in the Top 20% of your class don't go back. Where you are ranked is (almost) all that matters. For those of you who say "if you love the law..." you can't really understand that until you have been out and working.

 

[beerfan]

I'm also considering law schools, but with family in tow I need a full time job so I can only go part time to local ones. That's basically UConn or Q. I'd hate to be unemployed after law school, but it seems that even after UConn 20% are unemployed. That's giving me a pause considering Q and with my avg LSAT my chances with UConn are not very good. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Good thing I'm not really interested in big law. Public defender/prosecutor or small practice are what I'm after though it could change while at school...if it ever happens.

I know of a couple of people who got jobs as paralegals for one of the big insurance companies in downtown Hartford. They have a program where they pay for your law school while you go at night then you have to continue to work for them for a number of years. It is a tough way to do it and you will have no life for a number of years, but it is a way to get paid while you get a free education and a guaranteed job after you are done. One is still there, and one moved on to a big firm after his time was up.

 

[Fishy]

I am not a lawyer, but I am much smarter on the internet than any of the lawyers in this thread so I would pretty much take my advice and use it to guide the rest of your life.

Joe Biden finished like last in his law school class -- I've met him, that was no accident. He might have been a resource room kid.

So my advice is that if you do not finish in the top half of your class, go into politics.

 

[JTLAW]

Everyone seems to be giving you decent advice on here. The law profession is tough and produces a lot of D-bags but also some good ones. Getting through law school is no great accomplishment. There are some real idiot attorneys out there. A guy, like Prezident who wants to tell you how much he made out of law school is the typical egotistical lying dick who everyone hates around the water cooler so disregard his posts. You really need to love the law or you will hate the dog eat dog world of law. Good Luck young Counselor.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Prezident is FrankIvy, right?

I loved law school, it was a great opportunity to catch up on my recreational drug use and work on my jump shot, but as far as practicing goes you've really got to find something you enjoy within the law.

I've found the longer I'm in it that the true stars really, genuinely love it - whether it's transactional work at a firm, government work, public interest - and the rest are kind of slogging through it too scared to do something else. Try to avoid that group.

As far as picking a school, if you're not looking at one of the handful of schools that are going to place you anywhere no matter how you do, I'd echo the people that say go to school where you want to practice, find the right balance between reputation in the community and cost, and bust your ass to make sure you're at the top of your class. The market is not getting better any time soon, if ever.

 

[Prezidint]

A guy, like Prezident who wants to tell you how much he made out of law school is the typical egotistical lying dick who everyone hates around the water cooler so disregard his posts.

I made 55 grand out of law school and that makes me a lying dick? Because, what? Because I like to admit that I was working 60 hours a week to make 55 grand, which turns out to be 18 bucks an hour? Seriously? That's your logic stream? Or is it the fact that I said I'm working for postal wages now?
Or, really, is it that you have an inferiority complex and you can't stand the fact that some attorneys out there have made way more than you'll ever make?

Sounds like the latter to me.

Hey man, I was in patent law. Very lucrative. What can I say? Not a lot of folks running around who know what reverse transcriptase and res judicata are.

 

[AfgHusky15]

I just would like to sincerely thank everyone for taking time out of their day to help give me some advice and words of caution. I was actually surprised to see so many responses (maybe a sign of the overly saturated legal market ), but seriously thanks to everyone.

Just to answer a few of some posters questions. I applied to a boatload of schools bc I was granted a fee waiver through the LSAC (don't come from a family made of money, and my father also just helped put me and my two siblings through college at the same time). I had a why not attitude with the fee waiver and I wanted as many options as possible in terms of area of school and scholarship offers.

I also know that going to any of those schools I must finish in the top 20% if not the top 10% and must have strong local connections. I will most likely end up going to the school that will end of giving me the most schoalrship aid on that list, except for Q, I am in the midst of bargaining for greater schoalrship rewards with all the schools.

Just have one more question for anyone who still has the time or care to chip in with whatever they know ( I will also send a PM to those posters who have said I could). I have gotten on the waiting list for a couple of decent schools:

BC
William and Mary
Washington& Lee

Does anyone know exactly how big the waiting lists are and the chances of coming off of one? (the schools are very vague and I know they waitlist a ton of people in order to reduce theri admittance rate for rankings purposes) What are the chances that there will still be any money left for fianncial aid? and should I go to BC with no money offered over say Penn State or uConn in which I would be paying only half tution?


Thanks a lot once again everyone!

 

[jrazz12]

I wouldn't count on a wait list at all. First off, there's probably not going to be any money for you at that point. Also, most schools won't even contact you about it, or they could be like Fordham and tell you you didn't make the cut a week into your first semester at another school (like they did with me). If scholarship dough is important to you, and it should be, I'd say forget the wait lists.

 

[UConn Esq]

Q offers scholarship money to most people but what they don't really tell you is that its very difficult to keep scholarships in lawschool. Lawschool operates on a curve so to keep something like a 3.3 GPA is actually much more difficult than it sounds. Its not like undergrad where in theory every person can have a 4.0. This is why class rank is such an important statistic. Another common lawschool move is they give lets say 75 people full rides - they can put all of those people in the same section which all but assures that most of them wont keep the scholarship.

Basically I say this because in lawschool it doesnt always pay to go to where you're offered the most money. You want to go to the school with the best reputation thats close to where you want to practice law. Of all those schools, Brooklyn is your best bet for working in NYC. UConn would be good if you want to stay in CT. Temple has a great reputation if you want to be a litigator and PSU is the most "on the rise" school with Nova being the most on the decline.

 

[jrazz12]

Q offers scholarship money to most people but what they don't really tell you is that its very difficult to keep scholarships in lawschool. Lawschool operates on a curve so to keep something like a 3.3 GPA is actually much more difficult than it sounds. Its not like undergrad where in theory every person can have a 4.0. This is why class rank is such an important statistic. Another common lawschool move is they give lets say 75 people full rides - they can put all of those people in the same section which all but assures that most of them wont keep the scholarship.

Basically I say this because in lawschool it doesnt always pay to go to where you're offered the most money. You want to go to the school with the best reputation thats close to where you want to practice law. Of all those schools, Brooklyn is your best bet for working in NYC. UConn would be good if you want to stay in CT. Temple has a great reputation if you want to be a litigator and PSU is the most "on the rise" school with Nova being the most on the decline.

Great point about maintaining the scholarship. At my school you had to remain top third for that to be renewed. I know a lot of people who lost theirs after the first year. Nobody really tells you about that when you're coming in. Definitely something to keep in mind as you're evaluating scholarship offers.